What is your time worth?

[hackberry jake]

Everybody does hundreds of calculations a day, most don't have to be very accurate or numerical for that matter. But how much is my time worth comes up in quite a few of my calculations. Example: I need X amount of framing lumber. All the framing lumber i need comes to $XX.xx at the box store. I can fell trees, buck trees, skid logs, saw logs, stack lumber, and dispose of slabs for minimal monetary investment, but it takes a large time investment. So you need to know roughly what your time is worth. I set mine at around $10 an hr. I know this seems low, but it's cash money (pretend) that I don't pay income or sales tax on. In today's world, if you make $10 an hr, 30% gets taken of the top for income tax leaving you with $7. Then you buy something and theres a 10% sales tax leaving you with $6.30. After you pay for fuel to get to the store and back, you worked for an hr for about a gallon of milk. (just realized I'm blabbering) I set mine at $10 an hr. what do you set yours at?

[drobertson]

Some folks really like to torture themselves, hack, you might be one of those, ;D but to be plane and simple I shoot for 20/hr, and this has been a good avg for awhile now, sometimes it goes to ten, and many times it goes to over 30, it reminds me of many of the posts asking how to charge for a job, by the hour or bdft'g  the most I have ever made on a job cutting bdft, is $84/hr. this was a sweet job, that lasted several weeks.  When considering going from being in the timber to finish on the saw, this is another ball game altogether,  I have quit keeping tabs on many jobs and price by circumstances involved, backwards thinking, but fair for all,

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Jake,

I guess because of who and how I was mentored, I have never been able to think in hours that way.  At my age now and with my skill sets, when I do something that is nebulous, like consulting I charge between $65.00 and $75 per hour plus experiences.  My salary rate is $2500/week or $500/day, again no hours. Some days are long some are short. 

Most of my consideration is valuation and markets.  What is that per cubic meter or board foot, (even insulation is sold whole sale by the cubic meter or board foot.) They Plaster artisians do there "mud," as they call it by  square meter of square foot.  Dry laid stone masons charge material/equipment fees plus surface square footage or liner foot of laid stone.  It has always been by a metric of some unit produced.  When you are young you make less, as you gain experience you make more. 

It wasn't till after the industrial revolution, labor unions, and massive unskilled labor forces did we start to see more "hourly," considerations.  Professions that have a intangible elements like lawyers, (many of them charge by 15 minute increments,) tend to do things hourly, but not always. They have set fees for certain items like contracts, will, adoptions, etc.  Medical Doctors and Dentist even have unit metrics they use, not hours.

So, for me, it is seldom about hours, it's about units produce and there value. Time is a consideration, of course, but it seems to be looked at in a different context.

Regards,  jay



 

[Cedarman]

To be successful, one must do the most important thing possible at every available moment.  Available moment is what you define as time with which to devote to a money making activity. You might decide on 4,6,8, 12 or whatever hours per day to devote to work. When you devote time to work, you should be doing what is the most important thing possible at that moment.
Ask yourself, what would you be doing if you were not logging and sawing lumber?  Is there something more lucrative that you could be doing?
Figure the cost of going to town, figure 50 cents per mile as wear and tear, depreciation, fuel, oil etc for the vehicle.  This is what IRS allows or close to it. Cost of lumber including taxes.
How long did it take to make the trip?
If you weren't logging and sawing, would you be watching TV or chatting with friends? So whatever you make is a plus.
If you are in a high tax bracket, it might take $30.00 to leave $15.00 to pay for the lumber and travel costs when the lumber costs $10.00.   If it took 1 hour to harvest and saw the lumber, it is equivalent to working at a job that pays $30.00 per hour.  If you are in a low tax bracket, the pay back is not so much.
Play with the numbers , experiment, see what makes sense.

[beenthere]

65.00 and $75 per hour plus experiences

Was that a typo, or meant to be? ;)   ;D

[rooster 58]

     Think like a businessman and succeed, and make a decent living

     Think like a workingman, and struggle and starve 


     Which do you prefer?

     Ask yourself that when you decide what to charge ;)

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Beenthere,

No I wasn't trying to be funny, but I'm told that I usually am.  :D  Most folks in the historical restoration field charge between $60 and $100 per hour plus expenses for consulting.  That is why a client will usually just hires me for the day, plus expenses.  They know that for $500.00 I will be there all day to look and answer their questions, then we usually have a meal and talk more.  If they contract me for the work, I wave the daily fee and only charge for expenses.  Some still want me by the hour, and don't care, but I give them the choice. I'm told I don't charge enough for what I do.

When I do guiding or wilderness education work, it is very similar.

Regards,  jay

[florida]

For most of my life I've listened to people talk about what they did or are going to do in their "spare time." So how can you or I put a value on our "spare time?"

Your boss calls and wants you to come in Saturday night and work 8 hours when you would normally be spending "free time" lying on the sofa watching reruns and eating Fritos.

Will you work those hours for free?

Will you work those hours for your regular hourly wage?

How about time and a half?

Double time?

Unless you  chose option one or two we can quickly see that the value you place on your "spare time" is not free or cheap. Remember that when you're calculating how much doing a job in your  "spare time" will save.

[Kingcha]

Jake I think the same way as in money you do not have to spend by doing the work yourself is a pretax saving.

I value my time as to what I am doing.  There are many things I would happily do for $15-20 an hour.   In my next of the woods jobs do not pay that much for my skills.   To earn any reasonable pay I would have to go back into restaurant management.   I do not want to work 50+ hours a week.   Part-time work even with my experiences I would be lucky to find something for near $12. 

So I have to say I value my time too much to work full-time or part-time for someone else.    If I am doing something for myself my time is worth $10-$15 an hour.

[WIwoodworker]

I don't calculate the worth of my time in dollars. I calculate it in time. There are things I have to do and there are things I want to do. The more time I can do what I want to do the happier I am.

[Delawhere Jack]

I set mine at around $10 an hr. I know this seems low, but it's cash money (pretend) that I don't pay income or sales tax on.

It really is "pretend" money that we deal in everyday, dontcha know...



 

Something tells me this is not a coincidence........

[drobertson]

This is the beauty of our great country, supply and demand.  I believe if someone has a supply, and the need is in demand, then it can cost what ever the demand is willing to pay. sometimes, quite often, with a very satisfied result, other times the demand is met with resentment and bitterness.  Much like what we pay everyday for our fuel cost and grocery cost, but we still pay, (demand)  As far as specialized crafts or technical support or advice, it is worth what ever, in my opionion, what one feels willing to pay.  Many are satisfied, and many will never be.  david

[zombie woods]

Trouble is convinceing the guy on the other end .
The most valuable peice of advice (that I never really heeded )was laid on me by uncle when I was about 19
" If you and making money while you are sleeping you ant making money "
Now I get it , too late to start over
so I just keep telling it to my kid .

[saxon0364]

This is interesting.   But hard to figure.  If you have a "day job", that pays the bills and you don't have to have side work you can wait for the jobs that pay pretty well.   You don't have to take work just to make the bills.
    On the other hand, if your a farmer, or a logger, (I'm a logger but farm on as well) you cant even begin to look at hours.    If I'm logging, or plowing, making hay, whatever, and everything is running, I'm doing good.  When a machine breaks down and you spend 10 hours lying on your back in the mud and snow, then another pile of hours running for parts, the hourly rate you were getting while actually moving logs or whatever begins to drop, real fast.     Its the nature of the game. 
     For me, its a way of life. Hours mean nothing, its what I love to do.    As long as I can feed my family Ill keep doing it.   Ill never be rich, never have a pension, never go on vacation, never stop working till my body quits on me, same as my dad and his before.   
    As long as there's work and the banks not calling that's all I need. 
One more thing Ill say is Ive never dreaded my work day like some with "regular jobs" do.   I get up every morning excited to get it done.   I'm almost 50 and Ive got my self respect and my freedom to make my own decisions.       Thats worth more than money to me.

[drobertson]

Amen, saxon, I really wanted to say what you just did,  it is a way of life, nothing more can be said. We do what we must and live with it with as much joy as we can, keeping as much peace as possible in the process.  david

[m wood]

Hi jake, to me it depends completely on doing what you enjoy, vs. not happy with your job/paid hours.  i may sound jaded at the moment cuz i just received my pink slip...got 2 months left...at a job i took a significant pay cut for, with better chances of advancement...outperformed everyone by a sizable margin...promised the sky...9 years with company and 2 years at new post...210% production increase during my floor supervision tenure...BUT due to a lost contract, and my 2 years in department i am last man in and first out, (and seniority will only be considered within specific dept).  Bright side(and this sounds sad) is my family has adjusted to lower pay and modest lifestyle so finding something to match our current needs shouldnt be so hard. DanG! 

Jay C White Cloud, I had a family law professional with 6 minute incriments on her clock when she picked up the phone with a client.  I also feel that at my age and with my skillset(s), I should be able to charge consultation fees of 75.00-90.00 per hour.  Problem is, I guess I fall into tooo many categories, jack of all, master of none.  Trucker, equipment operator, builder, painter, plumber, electrician, teacher.  I'd do any of it for between 15 and 20 per hour and feel grateful for the chance. (except over-the-road, never again).  I squeek out my land taxes to NY every year without complaint because I have never been happier than when I am out in my woodlot.  I may be willing to say 10 per hour and give 10 to 12 hours each day, many days on end, if it were all done out there in the company of my wife and kids who love "the land" as much as I do.  But then I'd like to think that her time spent was able to capture an aditional 10/hr. and my young teenager when working the woodlot should be capable of close to that too...so, between 20 and 30 per hour if we were all together would be a priceless scenario.  BUT bills still gotta be paid, and we still gotta eat and stay warm, so priceless comes with a pricetag.

Thanks Jake, for the chance to vent.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

I have been reading along with everyone else but M Wood, moved me.  I'm so sorry to hear about your pink slip.  I don't think this is the place for all I'm think'n, but I will say this, I can't stand most business models, I don't like union.  I wish there still were real apprenticeships with Guilds and the loyalty that went with them.  I joined a group of timber wrights a few years back, and the first thing I did for the "head honcho," is fire all "His people," as he put it.  Then said to them as  a group, you want to work, come back and work, but as your own boss.  The owner wasn't none to pleased but he wanted what I had and was a friend.  If more businesses realized that they don't really exist without the folks at the bottom, I don't think we would be in the "pickle we are, as a country. 

It's funny, M. Wood get's "pinked out," because the upper echelon of a company looses some contracts, but when a CFO looses billions for bad banking or selling weapons to the wrong side, or looses  contracts, he leaves with a 120 million dollar severance package, happens every day.  I love the work I do. I also love that it's gonna cost a hell of a lot to get me to do it for some folks. 

I have meet some wealthy folks, in my different careers, that are the absolute salt of the earth, and others that think paying your for services rendered is some how a personal affront to them.  Funny most of the time they are either bankers, investors, politicians or trust fund types, and it's o.k for them to make $40/minute of every day in a year, but about have a stroke when I tell them their 5th house in Colorado's Ski country is going to cost a minimum of $500/square foot to turn key.  Yet I can work for an estate house in Greenwich, Ct for 6 years, meeting there gate keeper/handy man for tea and cookies when I get my check, and he is covered in dirt, has been splitting wood all after noon, and would like company for dinner, because his grand kids are away.  Come to find out, he owned the whole "shebang," and moved to the gate house when his wife passed away...to say he was the salt of the earth wouldn't even scratch it...I miss him.

Point is charge what you think what you are doing is worth, and if you have a chance to help someone the needs help, you should, no matter who they are.  Be at peace in your skill or craft, and Jake don't worry about the hours, look to your craft and your joy in it, the rest will sort it's self out as you learn.

My turn to apologize for venting.

[Magicman]

There are many of us that have been "pinked out".  I was "downsized" at age 51.  I am just saying that there are opportunities there, doors that can be opened, and ways to make a living.  Niche markets can be elusive, but they are there.  Sometimes they can be found when you are not actually looking for them.  I did.   

[Kingcha]

With time I think most will get over being Pink slipped.   Its been almost 30 years since I was shown the door.  Today that still stands as my favorite job I have ever had.  But that's all it was, a job.   Within 2 years I was in business for myself.   It was the best thing that ever happened to me though I did not feel that way at first.

Today I control what I do with my time.   

[m wood]

Thanks MM, your stories, knowledge base and, dare I say, humility, has impressed me over these past few months.  I surely mean no offense and simply say that you obviously come here  to share your experiences for the betterment of others...and to have a good time sharing.  Kingcha, this was a shocker, but by no means a TOTAL life changing event.  We are smiling again already.

Jake, as you can imagine, there are many a calculations happening under my roof these next few days.  But with my wifes nervous tendencies she still admires my ability to smile in the face of adversity.  I am the eternal optimist and I bring her calm...we fit well, she keeps me on my toes and keep her focused on the "glass half full".  She was told on the same day last week that her job was nearing an end, quickly.  We were stunned all of Wed and Thurs but gettin it together by Friday morn. 

I am prone to run on and on in explaining my position ( the high school teacher in me), my kids tend to tune me out on the 3rd anecdotal evidence to a question they ask of me...my wife just smiles and hints "that I'm doing it again".  I am learing to not be offended by it, and I am still learing every day how to better interact with others.

We are convinced that a sawmill is still a requirement, as the woodlot offers free raw materials and extra income,  just that now it is a slightly bigger gamble(so to speak).  Niche markets are still present in our general vicinity if I enlist some added value by building with the lumber.  Mr. White Cloud (and others) have touched on the point to not sell yourself short on your own worthiness and ability.  There in lies the rub (and what Jakes OP was about); charge for your talent what you and your end product is really worth, and what the market will bear.  Research and gleaning knowledge will surely help keep our heads above water(oh yeah, lets not forget HARD WORK).
:D ;D
Thanks guys

PS,  PMs would be welcomed, Your all the greatest and fairest resource I have seen on the www.  Suggestions and how-tos are awesome, and will be reciprocated when possible   

[mesquite buckeye]

Here is one more guy run out the door at age 60, after 21 years of service to the organization. Thank heaven for that what used to be a part time and fun sawmill.  :(

Thanks all, for your thoughts about things like this. Nice to know I'm not the only one.

[rmack]

One thing for certain... If you let other people decide what your time is worth, they will.

If you learn a high demand skill, even if it is vocational, you can make a pretty good dollar. If you use that $ to subsidize the things you enjoy, you can have a lot of fun.

[Kingcha]

Glad to hear you are still smiling  M Wood.   Sometimes that's all you can do about things.   I have learned life is a gamble, you can only do what you think is right as we do not control the out come.   
As a poker player I have learned you can only make your best educated decision and get in GOOD.   

I have found this site very helpful as i am sure you have too.   I plan to order my mill within the next 2 months, I can't wait.

[Magicman]

"Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service."

The above is in my signature and I take it very seriously.  Learn your sawmill and learn to produce a quality product.  "Practice" on  your own logs and make your initial mistakes there. (and there will be mistakes)

Just because you may have an expensive sawmill, work hard, and need an income, does not mean that you can justify charging a customer for less than a quality product or lower productivity.  Your customer has a right to expect both quality and quantity for his $$$.

[1woodguy]

   a good thread!
I enjoy seeing how others think lots of great viewpoints!

[Cedarman]

High Quality, Quickness, Good Service, Low Price.  A business must decide where they are at in these things.  You can not stay in business providing all 4.
Can anyone name a business that provides all 4?

[Kingcha]

I totally agree Cedarman you can only do 3.  Mcdonalds is a great example of that the service is good, the price is low and they are fast but the Quality is not High.

I

[1woodguy]

Cedarman
   Good point!
In the past as long as I didn't get over my head I could do the first three
But couldn't on the low price.  But if you hit the three they would pay more
But to beconsistant had to turn down work at times

[Art_H]

High Quality, Quickness, Good Service, Low Price.  A business must decide where they are at in these things.  You can not stay in business providing all 4.
Can anyone name a business that provides all 4?

Great post. I find most things can be boiled down to this level of simplicity.

Though being quick and price are linked, in that if you provide a good service of high quality, if it takes a little longer, but you charge a tad less all is ok.  Unless the job time sensitive of course.  But if you are super fast, and provide craftsman quality, then expect to pay top dollar.  In the end the price per unit would be similar.  Kind of like charging by the board ft.

I charge $30/ hr for labour when out of the excavator, $100/hr running the excavator. EX60-5 Hitachi. When self employed, $30 is pretty cheap as a charge out rate, considering the overhead required to support that hour on the ground.  Just running a business etc.  A local paving company charges out labourers at $65/hr.

My perspective is that you must be able to charge for your time, and for the company as well.  Otherwise you cannot expand and grow.  By growth I don't just mean bigger, but better quality equipment and more of it etc. Case in point, just when I think I have enough infrastructure, something kicks me in the but, and I'm off to buy a new tool...

On a small island, my family charges $1.50 / bft for red cedar, non planed and green.  We used to supply custom lengts etc. but that wasn't working out to well. So now more common lengths.  We are fortunate enough to have 400 acres of woodlot.  We have only harvested the cedars in the past 20 years or so.

I find a good work ethic is to work for someone as if you were doing it for yourself.

With my new portable mill, I'm going to have to come up with some rates.  $400/1000 seems to be the norm locally right now, but I think is going up a bit this year.

The HST going back to PST will open a little wiggle room...

Art

[Magicman]

Correct, If you provide the first three, then the customer will pay your price, but if you fail on any of the first three, then he probably will go somewhere else.  If/when I get poor quality or service, then I will take my business elsewhere.

[hackberry jake]

My dad always says "we can do fast, cheap, and quality. Pick two"

[Cedarman]

MM, I take it you don't shop at Wal-Mart.
You can get stuff cheap, you can get it quick, but try asking for help with a project, try finding unique items,if it isn't common they won't have it, quality leaves much to be desired.
When selling to a customer, you must find out which of the 4 is most important to them.  Somehow you must explain that they can't have all 4.

Also when talking price, never use the word cheap.  Use something like "more economical".  Would you rather buy something cheap or more economical?  Cheap has a poor connotation.

[rmack]

Ft Mcmurray AB Ford dealer shop rate for a mechanic to work on your truck is over $200.00/hr

Supply and demand is king, all the rest are peripheral... and timing is everything.

[lyle niemi]

Jake,
I found that the older I get I dont really care about the time like I used to. At one time I had to make every minute count

[Holmes]

If you set your time $ value low, that makes you feel you should not spend your money on " materials" but to make the things that are needed. I may set my value low when I am playing in the woods only because I really enjoy it.  I do not set my value low when I do plumbing and heating work. Running a business and surviving in this economy means you need to charge for ALL of your overhead based on the # of actual hours worked per year. In this industry we are lucky to get 6.5 hours of work from a person per day or about 1600 hours per year. They are paid for 2000 hrs. so the rest is overhead.  My overhead is around $35 per hour based  on 2500 hours of paid for work.
   I believe that all jobs are based on hourly rate.  The mechanics that flat rate price your brake job are actually charging by the hour based on worse case scenario. It can be done in 2 hours but the worse case may take 6 hours and that is what you are charged for.  Same can be said for masons , plumbers, electricians, and all ..................
   My value is over $100 per hour my employees value is not.

[Solomon]

Trouble is convinceing the guy on the other end .
The most valuable peice of advice (that I never really heeded )was laid on me by uncle when I was about 19
" If you and making money while you are sleeping you ant making money "
Now I get it , too late to start over
so I just keep telling it to my kid .

  I agree.  It all boils down to what the market will bear.   If the market will bear it, I'm going to charge it. If I lived in a rual area I likely would not be that way but here in the city most folks are out for themselves so I have to be too, otherwise I'm the loser every time.  I do make exceptions for repeat customers and close friends that treat me fairly.   But generally I have to be the Devil's Advocate.

[Solomon]

This is the beauty of our great country, supply and demand.  I believe if someone has a supply, and the need is in demand, then it can cost what ever the demand is willing to pay. sometimes, quite often, with a very satisfied result, other times the demand is met with resentment and bitterness.  Much like what we pay everyday for our fuel cost and grocery cost, but we still pay, (demand)  As far as specialized crafts or technical support or advice, it is worth what ever, in my opionion, what one feels willing to pay.  Many are satisfied, and many will never be.  david

Scratch that last quote. This is the one I was commenting on.

[Kingcha]

  I agree.  It all boils down to what the market will bear.   If the market will bear it, I'm going to charge it. If I lived in a rual area I likely would not be that way but here in the city most folks are out for themselves so I have to be too, otherwise I'm the loser every time.  I do make exceptions for repeat customers and close friends that treat me fairly.   But generally I have to be the Devil's Advocate.

Very glad I saw this post.   I was told in another post that I would be undercharging "basically under cutting other sawyers just to get work"   I totally agree with your post and want to charge what the market will bear, but being in a rural area and operating"when I get it" a small stationary manual mill, I do not believe I will be able to charge the same as lets say Magicman does.   He will out produce and out perform me.  Once i get enough experience and can produce faster with quality then that is different.   I will not ever try to steal work by doing it cheaper.      But I will never be able to charge what a portable unit gets.

[Art_H]

In Vancouver and the Lower Mainland BC, the rate for a 200 size excavator (20 ton) has been sliced to around $75-$85/ hour.  The locals have beat down the rates by not paying their operators minimum wage, and running the machines into the ground.  Just the fuel a 200 would burn in an hour... then the maintenance and parts.  200 size machines are not cheap to run. 

So how is this business model sustainable?  It isn't really, but they still do it.

On Vancouver Island and the Gulf Islands we are insulated from it for now.  I charge $100/hr for my EX60-5 and don't get much in the way of complaints.  The BC blue Book cost of running this machine is $60/hr fuel,parts,maintenance no operator wage.  I get about $40/hr to operate the machine.  I do all my own mechanical work. By choice, but also because I couldn't afford to have a field mechanic come to a small island to service it.

Bottom line, What's my time worth...?  The only way I would do something for under $20/hr is if I really wanted experience for something I haven't yet done.

But this being a North America and worldly forum, my hourly rate would mean something different elsewhere.  Locally we pay close to $6 for a gallon of milk etc.

We try to innovate and fine the best prices we can for the business.  I just found another gravel pit that has literally half the pricing of all the others.  So we give the custome a little discount and pocket the rest.

There is such a thing as being too cheap in your pricing as well, that may turn potential customers to another sawyer.

my $0.02 turned into 2 bits...

[Brucer]

High Quality, Quickness, Good Service, Low Price.  ...

... Can anyone name a business that provides all 4?

Walmart ... in the 1960's. That's why Sam Walton was so successful. Then he went public and the accountants got involved.

Toyota ... in the 1970's. In recent years they forgot about rule #1 of quality. They may never regain their standing.



If you control your quality at the source, your goods will be cheaper. Specifically, identify quality problems as soon as they are made, and fix the process that caused the problem. The longer it takes to discover a quality problem, the more money you will have invested in a product that doesn't meet the standards.

If you control your quality at the source, you will have fewer rejects and less rework, so your turnaround time for an item is shorter.

You can provide better service if your products are well designed and of consistently good quality. Good service means happier customers, which means more sales, which means more income for the same amount of overhead.

If you believe you can't do all 4, you never will.

[Jemclimber]

It takes money to make money. To put a value on your time depends whether you are referring just your time and labor/skill or your time plus your moneys time.  Your money can be put into assets or employees or both, and both take money.  The more money you have the more money you can make.

It's difficult to put a price on happiness.  I'm sure if you took a poll, many farmers would say they are wealthier than many stressed out CEO's.  Being able to live your life the way that makes you happy makes you among the wealthiest people on the planet. Try to find enjoyment in what you do, or make money doing something that makes you happy.

[Tree Feller]

I think it's difficult for any small business owner to put a dollar figure on their time. If they do, it is probably a very depressing number. If one adds up the time spent for marketing, bookkeeping, transportation, repairs, maintenance and then the actual sawing, the hourly rate is very small indeed.

There is not a good hardwood dealership in or near Tyler, TX. I've thought many times about opening one but then realize that I don't want to work as long or as hard as it takes to make a business successful.  Besides, the business couldn't afford me for the number of hours I would have to put in at the amount I think I'm worth.   ;D

[WindyAcres]

I am just waiting to get a new drive shaft and some other stuff done.. I pay 1,25$/minute (75$/h).

My time is worth 15-20$/h when milling for my labour.. I can only do it that cheap because I dont have to make a living at it.. However, you can hardly find somebody that pays that much around here. So I am not sure how I will continue yet.

[ely]

kingcha, i am willing to bet after you get a few full days sawing on that manual mill , you will not have any problem pricing your work to the public.

[lineguy82]

     Think like a businessman and succeed, and make a decent living

     Think like a workingman, and struggle and starve 


     Which do you prefer?

     Ask yourself that when you decide what to charge ;)

Amen brother😊