Got a call to mill a logging truck load this spring

[OlJarhead]

Had a rancher about 90 miles away call up and talk to me about milling up a logging truck load (long load I'm thinking as he's talking 32' logs that he's going to buck to 16') for a barn project he has going.

We talked briefly about pricing but I have a hard time with this part of the business to be honest.  I've seen others in the NW charging $85-$110 for their big mills (LT40's and LT70's) which can really churn out the lumber, but I do have eat right? lol so I figured $50/hr isn't a bad rate for a small operation like mine.  I should be able to crank out 100bf/hr without much trouble (I've done over 200 with one helper) and believe I can do double that with good logs and good help and probably more.

He said he would provide 3 guys.  one to drive the tractor to load logs and two to off-bear and help with loading so with 16' logs in the 18-24" range I'm thinking I can do 200 and maybe even 300bf in an hour -- am I crazy thinking that with an LT10?  I believe I've done something in the 200-250 per hour range already but I wasn't keeping track back then, just loading logs and offloading lumber and flitches and making sawdust!  We were cutting 5/8 stuff also so in reality it was more like 150bf/hr but I've been told to calc based on a min of 1" which makes sense (5/8 is more cuts per log after all).

Anyway, at 200bf per hour I should (should being the operative word) be able to do 4000bf in 20 hours of milling...that's $1000 at my given rate.

So, am I crazy?

Assuming the load of logs he gets is maxed out around 6500bf I'm looking at a minimum of 4 days worth of work to max of about 8 days if all goes well.

but to be honest I've not had a job that big yet!  Most logs I've done is 5 or 6 and I had all day to do them (usually I did most of that in about 2 hours because we got serious and knocked it out but those were all 8 or 10 footers that were maybe 15" in diameter.

OK enough rambling, I'm looking for advice on pricing a job like this out.  I want to do it right, give the best service I can for the best price I can and yet not starve in doing it!

Thanks in advance.
Erik

[AdamT]

I think you should charge by the BF rather than hourly. This way the customer knows beforehand roughly how much his bill is going to be. It may take you longer than you think, especially with an all manual mill. You won't feel pressured to crank out the number at a fast rate, and risk quality. If it takes all day to saw a few logs, well who cares? The customer won't be overpaying for his lumber, bc he's paying by the bf.

I don't know what rates per bf are in your area, but I can earn more money per hour charging by the BF, than by the hour.   (plus when you talk in cents per foot it sounds a lot cheaper than dollars per hour!) however there are times I have to go hourly...

If you have time, try sawing up some 16 footers with similar dimensions and track your bf. Then make a decision based on that and see where it leads. Good luck! Sounds like a sweet deal.

[thecfarm]

What if one guy don't show up or the tractor is needed someplace else for a while? Don't forget you will have to change blades too. I know it don't take long,but still needs to be counted.

[slider]

Charge by the bd ft .That way the size of your mill is not effecting how much you can produce per hour.If I am asked to cut below one inch the rate stay's at one inch.

[drobertson]

erik, happy for you, sounds like a good job. I also charge by the bdft, but in your area things might work out better by the hour,, every job is different, from whos' helping to equipment thats' available to site location.  good luck,  david

[scully]

Sounds like a great opertunity ! And surely a question I would have asked ! I'm thinkin if it were me I would go by the BF . It takes the pressure off trying to go faster than heck which is when stuff turns to crap ! Oh and it will !LOL Not sure about you but I can't run as hard now as when I was in my prime ,What I'm saying is don't kill yourself trying to go light speed ! Steady pace good sawing ,with a good final product .I would factor in blades weather it be resharp cost or loss . I would realy like to know how this goes for you as I intend to be doing alot of the same thing ! Don't forget fuel consumption now adays thats a big factor as well .

[OlJarhead]

I've seen several guys out there advertising their service either way south of me (southern Oregon) or on the coast and it looks like most of them prefer hourly over BF rates but perhaps you're right about charging by the BF instead.

The thing is, I KNOW I can't compete with an LT40  or LT70 -- one of the guys with an LT70 charges $100/hr in remote locations (anywhere more then 30 miles from his shop is remote) another doesn't travel much and charges $65 (if memory serves but I can't find his website at the moment).  I've also see rates by the bf running about .45/bf unless milling 2" or larger.

So, if I went with a board foot rate instead I could give him .45/bf which would be the same cost as the other guys but it would just take me longer (though there are scarce few milling out here so there may not be 'other guys'! lol).

The beauty of this is, to me anyway, that I'm in the desert so while there aren't any trees there aren't any mills either ;)  The rancher in this case is bringing in a load of logs from the nearest logging operation (perhaps 80 miles northwest of him) and if I do this one right I might just get in good with all the folks that need barns and fences built

This gent was happy to chat with me and had all kinds of advice which, though I've heard it all before it was nice to hear from a rancher instead of a miller.  His advice?  Get logging truck loads of wood in, mill them up and we'll all buy it from you and don't worry about drying, it'll dry on the barn just fine

Anyway, I've got to get my contract sorted out (I have a nice detailed example I pilfered from somewhere) and a price settled but I'm thinking you might be right about the pricing I just need to settle on what bf rate to charge and then I can get back to him.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Erik,

I think you can make a go at it by the bf...maybe $0.45 or $0.50 per?

[beenthere]

Couple things concern me, and think you should have a plan.
Size of the logs. D you know that they will fit the mill? If not, what is the plan? Send them back?

Second, dropping logs on your mill (or will you have a deck to put logs on and then roll them onto your mill) ?  And sounds like his men will buck the logs when they unload them from the truck.

[giant splinter]

Erik
There are portable sawyers with LT40's that are charging 35 and 40 cents / bf all over the west coast, I think you could get a little more with your LT10 but in large quantities its difficult to compete with the larger mills.
I suspect if you look into the rates and check out what others are charging you will find that you can make a profit, I feel its important to realize that you will be earning every cent of it and it is very important to keep records of your production to be sure it is profitable for you.
I know you can make a go of it and I wish you the best.
The term "logging truck" is relative and can range from a heavy duty pickup with a log carrying bed setup to the rigs running at 105,000 lbs. and even heavier in some cases, it might pay off to get a better account of what your customer thinks is a "load" so that you are not overloaded with a job that may involve undesirable circumstances.
The bigger and nicer the job//the more dogs are scratching to get it.

[OlJarhead]

Thanks and thanks.

I will have a winch and ramps to winch the logs onto the mill but the rancher has indicated he can load them with his tractor.  Of course, dropping them on the mill wouldn't be very good!  I guess that has to happen now and again though?

We discussed the size of the logs and I explained I can only do 24" max diameter and he was ok with that since he's ordering them via his brother who's running the truck.  Seems he's done this before.

I've noticed a fair amount of LT40's and LT70's over on the coast but haven't seen any out here yet (doesn't mean there aren't any but there isn't much in the way of trees out here *laughing*) and honestly, I'm only here because I live here.  I expected to do more work in remote locations around our property and didn't really think I'd pull a job out here in the desert.

[Tom the Sawyer]

Erik,

If your mill's capacity is 24" and he brings 24" logs it'll slow you down.  For me, by the board foot makes sense.  He will probably have a good idea of how much footage is bought, say 4000 bf.  If he is buying on the Doyle scale you'll probably have significant overrun using a band mill and he should be aware of that.  With pricing by the board foot he can estimate his costs (which may not be too much of a worry if he is trucking that far and providing a couple of hundred man hours of labor plus equipment).  You might have been able to push 200 bf/hr in the past but all day, day after day, for a week or two could wear you out.  By the bf you'll get it done at a predictable cost, however long it takes, without the physical stress or the potential dangers that go along with that.  :'(

Keep accurate records of how long it takes to saw each log and the board footage.  Before the next, similar, job you'll be able to figure what an appropriate hourly rate would work for you.

Good luck, whichever way you proceed.  ;)

[OlJarhead]

Here's a question:  what would you estimate a job like will take time wise.

My guesstimate based on 100bf/hr is 40 hours of milling time but that probably translates into longer then I think since I've not yet done a big job like this.

It's one thing to mill up a half dozen logs it's got to be entirely different to mill up a truckload of logs!

[WoodenHead]

Personally I think it will take a lot longer than 20 hrs on an LT10.  As others have mentioned a truck load could mean a variety of things.  When I get a truckload it is between 7500 and 10000 bdft depending on log diameter and lengths (and whether or not the driver doesn't mind being over weight  ;) )  If the logs are 16 feet you'll find that anything over 15" in diameter starts to get tiring very quickly on a manual mill.  I'm happy to get 150bft per hour consistently over several days with a helper on my LT28 cutting white pine.  Perhaps you are more athletic than either myself or my helper and you can do better.  I assume you are cutting pine as well?  What are the sizes of the lumber your client wants?  Are you sawing mostly timbers?  This could help your numbers.  Are you sawing to a cant or completely through-and-through and edging?  I assume you are edging on the mill.  Edging burns a log of time on my manual mill.

Charging by the board board will benefit your customer the most (i.e. if you take longer than expected the customer isn't getting expensive wood).  On the other hand charging by the hour will be in your best interest since you will be compensated for your time regardless of what happens.  I charge $0.30/bft or $40/hr and give the customer a choice.  In most cases it has worked out almost the same either way.  And most customers have choosen by the hour.  If the wood is particularly difficult, I insist that I charge by the hour.

Regardless you have yourself an excellent opportunity.  At the very least if you don't make a mint, you'll gain experience and perhaps some word of mouth business in the future.

[WindyAcres]

I should be able to crank out 100bf/hr without much trouble..
I'm thinking I can do 200 and maybe even 300bf in an hour..

I was reading and then it came .. "with a Lt10"  Holy smokes, you guys must have nice logs!! I thought you were talking about a L40 hydraulic at least!  :D

Like AdamT says

I don't know what rates per bf are in your area, but I can earn more money per hour charging by the BF, than by the hour.   (plus when you talk in cents per foot it sounds a lot cheaper than dollars per hour!)

..If you get an experienced guy in that sees nice logs, good help, etc. and knows that he can make good production rates/h and he wants to make money, he will probably charge by the bf.. maybe 25 cent/bf or so (lets say and LT40h and he mills about 250bf/h, which brings him to about 65$/h). So basically you wont be able to compete with that unless his production rates are low. Lets say the logs are small,etc. and he can only mill 100 bf/h and charges 65$/h thats 0.65$/bf.. thats where you might come in...

I think it all depends where you are... around here, I heard you can have a 1x6 rough sawn hemlock delivered to your place for .55 cent/bf. Its around 0.80$/bf at the big box stores for planed spruce 3/4x 5 1/2. Oak on the other hand would be a different story, there is none around here (and if there was, most of it would get clearcut pretty fast replanted with spruce). So I think it depends on the species as well.. what did you say it was, oak?

I would give it a try with 0.45 cent/bf.. ?? (plus dont forget blade coverage..).

Yes, please let us know how it went.. production rates,etc.

[OlJarhead]

Wow!  Thanks.

In this area I wouldn't be surprised if it's an overweight load.

The wood is likely to be Fir though we have a lot of ponderosa and tamerack in the forest where he's getting the logs.

At 10,000 bf I'd probably feint first! lol  Hadn't realized there could be that much in a load of logs (not being a logger and relatively new to sawing).  At that if I cranked out 100bf/hr (and didn't die) I'm looking at 100 hours not including down time.  We're talking something on the order of 3 weeks worth of work then

[OlJarhead]

yes, an LT10

Truth is, it was on short logs (8'6") running about 12-15" diameters and I ran through 5 of them in 2 hours milling 5/8".

The toolbox says the logs should produce about 51bf per so with all at 12" I would have done 250 in 2 hours but I also milled 5/8 rather then 8/8 which would/should have taken less time.

I've actually run faster then that but it took me almost never stopping.  I'd run the saw down the log, drag it back, run it down, drag it back etc etc and my off-bearer just kept it going -- was practically running!.

The little mill can do the short logs like that pretty nicely but I've just added 7' to the deck and raised it two feet so honestly I can't say I'd be able to do the same now.

I'm a big guy (used to weight lift etc) so probably stronger then most and walk as much as 40 miles a week (usually around 25-30 though) to get in better shape but I'm also not a kid anymore......but that's the thing, I have one of those ;)  A kid that is.

My step son runs the mill as good or better then I do (he's 22) and can do it all day with good loaders/off loaders and I'm hoping to get him involved too.

Basically I'll give the guy two millers for the price of one with the hope that my son can eventually run the saw by himself when I can't -- and perhaps we get another mill.

[Delawhere Jack]

You're gonna sleep like a rock after a day of 16-24" logs on a manual mill. ;D I know from personal experience.



 

I'd confirm that he has, or can get a set of forks for his tractor. Most just have a bucket and it's not ideal for work around a mill. Two can't hooks would make life easier as well.

[GeorgeK]

Do you have a way to off load the truck? We just unloaded one with an A300 bobcat. First time we had a truck load of logs.

[OlJarhead]

Great pic!  I imagine that hand crank must take some effort?!

I plan to have one as a backup for my electric winch (because batteries die and wires get crushed etc) just in case.

I'll have to be sure to confirm he has forks but I beleive that's what he was saying since he asked if a 'forklift -- actually tractor' (his words) could be used to set the logs on the mill deck.

If I can keep them loaded by the tractor then winching them on won't be an issue (since I won't have to).

one thing he suggested which I liked was to have a roller deck the logs could be loaded up onto and staged ready to roll onto the mill when the last board comes off the mill.  I've been giving this some thought because it would save the mill deck from being a target for the tractor dropping logs and would allow them to stage 2 or 3 logs ahead of time and then just roll them onto the deck of the mill when ready.

Of course it would take some welding etc and I'm not ready to spend the money to get it done just yet but I can at least see the value in the idea.

Anyway, I better hit the gym! lol

I'm thinking I might need the winch to roll the cant too because even with two cant hooks it's got to be tougher 2 feet off the ground then right on the ground.

This is when my head said "hey goof ball, you sure your ready for this?!" lol

[OlJarhead]

Do you have a way to off load the truck? We just unloaded one with an A300 bobcat. First time we had a truck load of logs.

The rancher will offload and stage the logs ahead of time.

[tyb525]

Boy...I milled 1mbf (1000bf) of almost perfect poplar 14-24" x 10' all to 1" and it took me almost 15 hours including moving the logs and stickering the lumber and I was about beat to death. Loading with a cant hook, but I had a tractor to do most of the moving around.

I would definitely charge by the bf, cause it will probably take longer than you think.

It's doable, but there is no way you can compete with a hyd LT40. Part of the reason I haven't pursued custom sawing just yet, max log length is too short, and average sized logs for the LT40 are too big for the LT10. Oh and it's just a lot of work ;)

[OlJarhead]

Were you working alone?  That's 67bf/hr but if you were alone I'd say that's very good!

In order for me to do 100+ I have to have my sons offloading and loading as well as helping turn the cant and clamp it down etc etc etc.

I also have my son run the saw when I'm offloading and vise sersa - gives me a chance to do something else and let him run the saw.

[OlJarhead]

Here's another question (and thanks again for all the help!  This forum is awesome!):  when you guys say don't forget to charge for blades do you mean broken blades or resharp?

I assume broken blades are charged for but resharping blades is a normal expense for the work right?  Or do you charge for each change of blade regardless?

Trying to understand the typical charge which I assumed previously was either hourly or by the board foot with extra costs for broken blades and the ability to switch to hourly if things are going wrong (i.e. bad logs, slow crew etc).

[beenthere]

From the original post:

He said he would provide 3 guys.

Post this am:

We're talking something on the order of 3 weeks worth of work then

So the rancher is going to keep his 3 guys helping you for three weeks?

I'm thinking some real serious second thoughts should be going through yer head.  ;D ;D
Money is one thing, but headaches and being between a rock and a hard place is another. ;)
Hope it does work out for you. It would be an awesome job to have work well and under your belt.