iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Drop Trees Before The Sap Runs?

Started by MILL BRANCH FARMS, January 26, 2013, 01:59:20 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

MILL BRANCH FARMS

I'm going to be building alot of sheds, a pole barn and maybe starting a log home this year using mostly yellow poplar and virginia pine. Here are a few questions. With the sap down this time of year should I drop a bunch of trees now? If I leave the tops on and coat the butt end with roof coating, how long would the logs stay good? I would make sure the trunks were off the ground.
DIGGER

yellowrosefarm

I built my garage out of poplar and pine sawed on a woodmizer. I cut the trees down in the winter, had them sawed in the spring and put up the garage starting in August. Even doing that, some of the poplar got some black fungus on it even though it was stickered and covered on the top of the stack only. Poplar and pine do not last long in log form with the bark on. Beetles and carpenter bees go to town on it , as well as, rot. Get them down, sawed and stickered as soon as you can.

Qweaver

I'm told that the moisture content is the same summer or winter.  But I like to drop trees when the leaves are off just because the trash is easier to handle and burn.
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

beenthere

Qweaver is right.
The sap doesnt' go down in the winter, as so many have thought over the years. ;)

In the spring, it does start to flow when the tree begins to grow after a winter of dormancy.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

qbilder

I have cut trees in winter and summer & cannot tell the difference. They all bleed. That said, I have noticed that trees I cut in "drought" seasons were pretty dang dry.

A few years ago I was cutting sugar maples in Ohio. It was early September but because of the severe lack of moisture that year, the leaves were already dying & turning brown. Sugar maple is notorious for bleeding but these trees were dry, not a drop of sap. The dust from thew mill was damp as usual but while felling there was no sap draining like there usually is. Once dried that wood was the whitest & cleanest maple I have ever seen. I have cut wood in that property before and after & never experienced the lack of sap nor the pristine clean wood except for that one time. I cannot say for sure that the drought had anything to do with the enhanced end product, but I'm pretty certain it had a lot to do with the lack of sap and I do suspect it somehow has something to do with the great lumber. The experience got me to thinking about the wives tale about winter wood being cleaner because of sap being down. There might just be some truth to that. September & October are usually pretty dry months, and if dry enough the summer before, might actually yield better lumber. I'm not a superstitious mind, but I think there's an element of truth to some of the old beliefs.         
God bless our troops

pnyberg

No longer milling

beenthere

I wouldn't do that roof coating either.  ;)
A mess.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ianab

There might be valid reasons for harvesting trees in the winter, but they don't have anything to do with "sap".

Cold weather means the logs last longer before you mill them (stain and bugs)
Cold weather can improve the results when air drying. Oak dries slower so it's less likely to check. Pine doesn't develop blue stain, bugs don't attack the wood etc. When the weather warms up the wood is 1/2 dry and less prone to problems
Cold weather may improve access. Snow is easier to transport logs over then mud.

But if those things don't apply, then drop the logs when you are ready to saw them. While the are standing you don't need to worry about the logs degrading in any way.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

ladylake

 With basswood it does make a big difference, with the leaves on the logs need to be cut right away and don't dry good. Cut in the winter I've sawn year old logs that were still nice and white right out to the end.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

The discoloration of wood from the oxidation of the sugars or from the activity of fungi both require warmth...hotter is faster.  So, winter-cut logs will give whiter wood unless they lay around until it gets warm.  So, this is the reason [perhaps that people used to think that the sap was down...there was no sap staining in the wood.

The idea of sap being down has been already correctly commented on, but think about if it were true.  A large oak tree would have maybe 6000 pounds of water in it, which is 3000 quarts.  Can you imagine a root system that has a room that is empty in the summer that could hold that much water?  Then multiply that by each tree in the forest.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Cedar Savage

Years ago when I was logging full time, I noticed that in the spring on warm days the stumps would pump sap out. During night ice would build up on top of the stumps, sometimes several inches of ice would be on top of all the stumps in the morning. Birch & maples seemed to pump more that other species. Also in the spring on the aspen & basswood logs the bark would slip off 'em like a peeling a banana.....
"They fried the fish with bacon and were astonished, for no fish had ever seemed so delicious before."         Mark Twain

WDH

One advantage to cutting in the early Spring, if you are cutting live edge boards, is that the bark peels right off.  Once the cambuim becomes active in the spring, bark is much easier to remove.  It is the hardest to remove in the dead of winter.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Peter Drouin

All I know that if I buy pine logs in the winter they will last till aug with no blue stan or bugs in them, but if I get them in the summer two week and look out, they will turn blue, even the lumber will turn blue :D well the sap wood will, now is the time to buy logs , so I try to do that but this time of the year it's slow and money is tight, but if I want a saw mill biz I have to, In the spring things will start up and I have to be ready :D

It's a thing to see all the logs in the yard and think of all the money setting there. some times I think I should just saw them and leave them like MM, but then I would miss all the fun of it
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

stumpy

 logger once told me, for the best wood, cut trees only in months that contain an "R" I assume it's for all the reasons stated.
Woodmizer LT30, NHL785 skidsteer, IH 444 tractor

Stephen1

Most of the info that gathered on building my log cabin stated trees cut in the winter were better in that they preserved better but the bark was harder to peel off. Spring and summer bark comes right off but the logs rotted faster!
But the info presented here seems to contradict that. gene mentions about storage. That makes sense. Maybe it is the fact that winter cut the sap is stationary not moving. Would that be the difference? Maybe the sugars are used by the tree and no new sugars have moved up the tree as it is frozen? any thought on that Gene?
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

thurlow

I have nothing but antecdotal 'proof' about sap in the tree and don't know why this happens.............  I've no idear  8) how many black locust posts we cut from 1951 'til sometime in the late '90s (when we swapped over to metal "T" posts), but it was in the thousands.......probably tens of thousands.  Those cut in the Winter months were 'good' for 40-plus years;  those cut at any other time would last only a few years....5-8.  We almost never cut 'em in the Spring, but occasionally wouldn't have enough 'put back' and would have to cut a few...........
Here's to us and those like us; DanG few of us left!

Larry

A couple of posters have mentioned bark slipping.  For this reason alone I hated logging in the spring.  If I just touched a walnut tree while skidding a log, the walnut would loose its bark on one face, sometimes 3' in length. :-[
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

beenthere

Stephan
QuoteSpring and summer bark comes right off but the logs rotted faster!

More to the story than what this implies. Don't think time of year of cutting the tree means the logs will rot faster.  How and where logs are stored will have an effect on logs rotting however.

Do you recall the source of this info?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ianab

Regarding the logs lasting longer when winter cut, this is probably correct. I think it's just the actual reason that's different.

If they are cut in spring they are still green when exposed to the heat of summer. Means decay can get a head start while the log is still green. The winter cut logs have the chance to dry before the warm weather comes around, so it's more decay resistant.

So like I said before there may be valid reasons for cutting at a certain time of year, but it's not to do with sap being "up or down".

Also, saying "It's how the logs are stored" is also correct. Sitting around in freezing conditions is different storage to sitting around in summer heat.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

stavebuyer

I won't argue the point of the "sap being up or down" but logs cut when the 'bark slips' absolutely will suffer from extreme end splitting and sap stain quicker than logs in the same pile that were cut in the colder months when the bark was still "tight".

WDH

I suspect that it has to do with temperature.  BTW, sap moves in the inner bark from the roots to the crown, not in the wood.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Tree Feller

I know a couple of woodworking sites where one can get absolutely flamed for suggesting the tree MC is as high or higher in winter as it is in the summer.

Myth and misinformation are difficult to refute, especially when it is constantly repeated on internet forums. 
Cody

Logmaster LM-1 Sawmill
Kioti CK 30 w/ FEL
Stihl MS-290 Chainsaw
48" Logrite Cant Hook
Well equipped, serious, woodworking shop

WDH

Like the myth that 1" lumber takes a year to air dry!  It totally depends on climate, temp, relative humidity, and air flow.  That one is so oft repeated and ingrained that it will probably never die. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Jemclimber

Quote from: Tree Feller on January 27, 2013, 10:31:07 PM
Myth and misinformation are difficult to refute, especially when it is constantly repeated on internet forums. 

Don't you know that everything on the internet is true.  "I'm a french model, Bonjuor"   :D
lt15

ladylake

 The Amish around here will only take basswood cut in the winter.   Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Thank You Sponsors!