Looking to start out

[Jwinter]

Hello, I have just found out about and became a member of the forum.  Lots of interesting topics and smart people here, I'm hooked already.  I need some advice.  I'm 29, have been around the logging business indirectly most of my life (my father managed some woodlots). I also was in a forestry program at UCONN.  I have been working in the earthmoving/ excavating industry (laborers union) for the past 6 years.  Recently I've  been thinking about buying a smaller cable machine JD 540 maybe. I know a lot of woodlot owners log truckers and buyers. I dont know wood like you guys but i'm far from a dummy. Can a guy still make a decent living with a chain saw ,cable machine cutting hardwood and doing firewood or operating costs just too high? Thank you.

[Minnesota_boy]

I have limited experience on this subject, but the talk I hear from the loggers I talk with says you came into this about 25 years too late.  The margins are much leaner now and it is harder to make a business like that pay off.  :(

[WV_hillbilly]

  Welcome to the forum Jwinter.  I'm sure you can learn a great deal on here . So just keep reading and asking .

[Duane_Moore]

Welcome here. we will help all we can, It would be tough to beat a union wage, and the bennies. but if ya do both its a good life.  Duh---Duane

[Ron Wenrich]

I didn't even know UCONN had a forestry school.  Is that one accredited?

You can do a lot of good cutting firewood from woodlots.  This is an area where most loggers don't go, since there isn't as much profit in it.

You won't be able to pay too much for firewood on the stump.  You're going to have to sell the advantages to the forest of getting the junk out and leaving some good sawtimber to accumulate growth.

But, after you get the wood out, you will have to have a method of producing and delivering.  I've seen some good setups and some that are undersized.  That just put your initial costs pretty high.

Firewood is also a seasonal market.  You may find wholesalers that will take wood all year long.  We have.  We have a processor that cuts & splits a trailerload in about 4-5 hours.

Getting into cutting sawtimber can be tough.  You have a lot of guys to compete with, and their costs are lower since their production is higher.  You may want to consider subcontracting.

[redpowerd]

ron has some good points, duane too. we cant come close to union pay :-/

talk to as many of these folks in the forest as possible, there may be a small company willing to hire an independant logger with a cable and a saw. thats how a lot of part timers around here do it. but, they market none of the logs, they just set it on a truck.
it all depends on how involved you want to be in the woods.
do you want to cruze the woods with the customer?
do you know what your looking at?
would you rather cut marked trees?
who will load your logs?
where will they go?

welcome! have fun, sounds like your motivated enough to make a good crak at it

[bull]

Were Ya from, your profile says Suffeild USA. you went to Uconn. Are you from CT or another New England state.....

  You may have some luck in the land clearing buisness in the  CT/MA area and profit from the good saw logs you can get off a house lot....... Keep your over head low and start off one job at a time....... If you want to make a living stay small and diversify......        Union wages aint always what they are buttered up to be... and being your own boss is pretty good            

    Keep talking there's a lot of help on thois forum
                                                          Good Luck;  Bull

[Frickman]

JWinter,
Welcome to the forum, glad you're aboard. Yes, I think you can still make a decent living with a saw and cable skidder, you just have to find a unique niche or two to work in.

As Ron stated, you can improve a woodlot significantly by selectively removing low-grade timber. With your forestry education and background you should have the technical know-how for the work. If you have landowners interested in having this kind of work done you can make a decent living cutting wood. You will have to market every stick of wood for it's highest value, whether it's firewood, pulpwood, saw and veneer logs, or specialty products. Firewood is worth about $5.00 / cord on the stump, tops, so the landowner won't be getting much money now if it is all low-grade wood. If you write up a management plan and show them the potential profit in the future it should be an easier sell.

Contract cutting is a way to get started, but like trucking, all you are doing is buying yourself a job. I've found that we make as much or more marketing our wood than actually cutting it. When you contract cut you are allowing someone else to to reap the profits from smart timber buying and marketing. If you don't like the business end of things and just want to cut trees it is a good way to go though.

You are about 25 or 30 years too late to get into logging in a big way, ie: bidding for tracts of timber, buying big equipment and trucks, and hiring lots of men to cut and move lots of wood. If you keep your overhead low though and work in areas that the big boys somewhat ignore I feel there is alot of opportunity in the wood business. Don't quit your union job yet though, buy a small skidder and work part-time at it. You'll then see if it is something you'll want to do full-time.

[Buzz-sawyer]

In our area a man with a skidder and a chainsaw can make a lot of doe IF....he developes a reputation as an HONEST logger....
Here loggers are notorious and on the bottom of the food chain as far as reputation ...people hear the word logger, aqnd they hear thief...jerk...

so I know of a decent fellow who a couple of years ago started out and has WAY more work than he can handle as cosequence of his spreading rep. as a good guy..

[Jwinter]

Thanks guys for the input I really appreciate it. There is nothing like advice from experienced loggers and sawmillers. UCONN has a program called natural recources management.  It encompasses forestry wildlife management etc.  I dont think it is accredited.  As far as the land clearing goes,  I dont want to jump to deep into those waters,  There is a lot of big outfits in the area and chippers, live floors, feller bunchers kind of scare me ( high maintainence and overhead)  I get the northern logger so i have a feel for whos out there buying logs.  A friend of mine has 2 decent log trucks and knows a lot of buyers so marketing and trucking/loading trailers wouldn't be a huge problem. Also I watched a veneer buyer grade and scale logs for a few weeks.  However I have a ton more questions and a ton more things to learn about the wood business so thanks for your patience and responses.
Thanks, John

[Minnesota_boy]

Jwinter,
Just keep on asking those questions.  There's a ton of experience on here and some of the rest of us will learn things from the questions you ask and the answers you get.

[Jwinter]

Let me ask you guys something.  The more I think about it, is a tri-axle self loader a necessity in a small logging operation? Sorting and loading trailers,tree length firewood,marketing lower grade logs and with a tag along,moving your own machine?

[Ron Scott]

You will need to establish a reputation as being a "good logger" to get repeat business as previously stated. It might be good to seek out a respected logger in your area and see if you can work for them for awhile to learn various logging methods. Take the logger education programs and certifications required for your area.

You may want to go to variable length logging methods where a rubber tired forwarder may be the better piece of equipment than a cable skidder. It would be good to have both, but equipment is expensive. The productive logger today is highly mechanized, but realize that equipment payments don't stop during "spring breakup".

Practice sustainable forestry and treat every logging job as if it were your own property and you will establish the reputation needed to stay in the logging business.

 

[Ed_K]

 Welcome Jwinter, everyone here has excellent words, I would try contacting Hull Forest Products and see if you can get on one of their crews for while, and see if you really want to go into the business. If you like it and Hull likes your work, they may set you up with a skidder.
 Best of luck, see you at the expo in Springfield, Ma. Apr 30  May 1st

[pappy]

Welcome  Jwinter,

There is a fellow up in these parts who has a tri-axle self loader.  He buys brand new every 3 - 4 years.  Most of his work is hauling logs for everybody from the small time loggers to the biggest.  He hauls brush, stumps, torn down buildings,  you got something which needs hauling' and if he can pick it up he'll do it.  He's got all the work he can handle, the hours are long but he just bought a new short job and he's got a kid starting college this fall.  

Logging with a chainsaw and cable skidder is very hard work and dangerous.  I agree with what Ed_K suggested,  work for another to see if you like it  before you invest.  
 

just my 2 cents
termite

[mrelmertoots]

You could log as I do, by the ft and the ton. I just contract with the timber or land owners. A land owner that has been ripped off by timber buyers in recent years is the best to work for. I don't buy any timber, I only work for the timber owner. I usally get from  15 to 20 cent per ft for getting it to the mill of the timber owners choice. Also all checks are made to the timber owner. These would be mills within 25 miles. I get an extra 5 cents for veneer logs as you have to mess more with them like making sure both ends are clean. I also work by the ton, I get $20 per ton for pallet logs which can be small, have lots of knots and won't bring much at a lumber mill. I get more people want me to do their timber than I can do because they will end up with more money. I also save more of the tree than the big loggers do and also cut the junk trees which the big loggers won't do. I don't go into the woods and rob it, I leave all the smaller trees that will be ready for cutting in another 10 years. Sometimes the land owner end up with twice as much money as what a timber buyer wanted to pay them. As this timber operation is just a part time hobby for me and I already have the equipment to do it, I make a little money. But my operation has its downfalls, here it Indiana you got to have a timbers license to by timber, but I don't need the license as I only work for the land owner. So some timber buyer which most of them are crooks call the DNR and tells them I'm doing timber without a license. I've had the DNR people to sneak in and count the stumps for evidense aginst me and then come and read me my rights. But when I showed them some evidense that I was not buying timber they leave like a dog with their tail between their legs. It kind of gives me the impression that the DNR are also low lifes.

[OneWithWood]

mrelmertoots,
I work with the DNR a lot.  They have always been very helpful and supportive of my efforts to manage my woodlot.  I certainly would not describe them as lowlifes.  Everyone I have met is very dedicated with a passion for performing their jobs in a professional and honest manner.
Maybe you just ran into the odd-man-out.

[mrelmertoots]

I think it was a case of the DNR officer not getting the facts before he started investigating. It all started when this Corp. wanted me to cut some timber to make way for earth moving at a limestone mine. The CEand O was supposed to be paying the bills but wasn't, so the the one who hired me was paying some of the bills with the timber money. I only did a small area and the CE and O got someone else to do the whole mine. The one who hired me and the CE and O had words and the CE and O called the DNR accusing us of stealing timber and it looked like it to the DNR since some else had cut timber right after I did. The officer want to arrest someone so bad that he just figured we were guilty of stealing timber. Things like this will make a person think bad about the DNR.