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question on logging

Started by br389, January 18, 2013, 06:57:36 PM

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br389

I'am getting ready to kick off my logging business here in a couple of weeks I finally got a break and won a bid on a decent tract. I've been cutting and selling wood for years and have two 3pt winches for my tractors and I'am in the process of buying a jd 540 but I haven't done much logging other then for myself and I have some questions to ask first and I'll be on here quite a bit asking you guys for some help but the one question I have is do I have to go around and tell boarding land owners who I am and what I plan to do in the woods? I'am assuming I do but I wasn't sure

bill m

br389, can we get a little more information? Where are you located? Is this a marked job,a forester involved and is there a cutting plan?
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

br389

I live in Oswego county in ny and its just a 20 acre lot and I'am harvesting anything 16" and up

bill m

I don't know about NY but in Ma. cutting more then 25 M bd. ft. requires a cutting plan and abutting landowners must be notified.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

saxon0364

I don't know about NY. Any cutting I've done up there has been on pieces bought by a company and managed by a consulting forester.   Here in Pa. you don't have to talk to adjoining land owners.   And you shouldn't if you don't have to.   Now,,that may rub some folks the wrong way. But, its not the adjoining land owners  call. If the land owner has decided to sell his timber its his business and no one else's.
  And, you don't want to give someone cause or time to complain to the township, county, or what ever.     Logging isn't pretty and with some folks it ain't to popular.    So be it, they can do what they want on THEIR land.   
Make sure your road bonds are done before you truck if you need them, be careful about getting mud into streams and creeks, line up some bridges if you need them.   Follow good forestry practices and don't drop any trees over the property line.     If your unsure of the lines get the lanowner to mark them and then stay back from them incase hes a little off.  Don't leave any trees hung up and cut off any broken snags, makes the job look a lot better.  Good luck, be safe. 
Nothing wrong with quiet.

beenthere

saxon
Might be more of an issue with where the boundaries are at, than whether the neighbor protests the cutting.
Getting across a boundary onto someone elses' property and cutting their trees can bring up legal issues that the logger doesn't really need.
At least that is how I interpret the OP.

If the company and the consulting forester establish where the boundaries are for the logger, then the onus is on their back and not the logger. But a self employed logger might be wise to be sure neighbors are notified that there will be cutting along their boundary, IMO  Might save some real headaches.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

thecfarm

When people cut around me I would make sure the logger knew where the line was. Mine line has always been painted. What do you have for a tractor,hp? Here in Maine I would have to fill out an intent to log permit. Also keep your landing clean. And clean up after you are done. Don't leave NOTHING on the landing. No left over logs,pulp,or cut offs. You have to remember this is all most people will see of your work when they drive by and you are done.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Kemper

I always leave a bit of space around the lines to be safe. I wouldn't talk to the other land owners unless you felt there might be confusion with the lines. Really not their business.

Ianab

I would suggest you do talk to the neighbours, for 2 reasons.

First is, confusion over boundary lines as mentioned. You have been told where the owner thinks they are. Do the neighbours agree? Best to sort this out before you cut any trees, not argue over it 1/2 way though the job. Same goes for right of way, access etc. No surprises then.

Secondly, it gets your business card in the hands of more potential customers. Maybe they are thinking about selling timber too? You aren't calling with a sales pitch, just a PR call. But now they know who you are. Do a good job on the original harvest, make a good impression with the neighbour, who knows?

You are not approaching them for "permission", the logging job is going to happen. It's just a PR call to let them know what is going on, and make sure they have no major issues that are going to involve you.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

br389

Thanks a lot for the help I have another question..... I walked the property yesterday with the land owners tax map to determine what tree's to cut when I go in there that way I don't waste no time when get my equipment there but some of the boundaries are unclear.. should I have it surveyed and if so do I have to pay for it or does the land owner?

WDH

No, it is not your responsibility to survey.  It is the landowner's responsibility or a Forester working for the landowner to establish the lines.  One thing that was helpful for us in this situation was to have the landowner mark the boundary, and they draw up a simple, one page, letter of agreement with the adjoining landowner that this was the boundary.  If they did not agree, or if there were problems in the past with this boundary, that will come to light and you will not end up with paying a settlement or going to court.  If the cut area was interior to the property and did not border other landowners, I can see not notifying the other landowners.  Otherwise, unless the boundary is crystal clear, it is best to test for agreement with the adjoining landowners before cutting. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Slab Slicer

A freind of mine had some of his land logged a year or so ago. My buddy marked the boundries, then the logger put in a 30' backset from the line to be safe. There weren't many, if any trees worth harvesting in the backset, so there were no missed opportunities for the most part. I figured it saved the logger from any possible disputes with the neighbors.
2016 LT35HDG25, Kubota L2501 w/ FEL, Kubota BX1500 w/FEL and custom skidding rig, Stihl MS 500i, Stihl MS362-25", Stihl MS250-20", Stihl MS192-18",  2001 F250 SD 7.3, GMC Sierra Dually 6.0 gasser, Peaqua 16" 10K trailer, Sur-Trac 12' Dump Trailer 10K
Chuck

WDH

Sometimes if there is a dispute, and it you leave a buffer, that can be used against you in the future in that it could be said you were acknowledging that the line was wrong.  Many times, past use will be strong evidence to settle a boundary issue. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

g_man

Your agreement or preferrably contract with the land owner should address harvest boundary issues and clearly state that it is the landowners responsibility to mark said harvest boundary and he is solely responsible for any complaints caused by incorrect marking.
Your job is to harvest the trees.

The things Ianab says are also true.

mad murdock

Timber trespass is a serious deal in our neck of the woods! I would be sure that the landowner and all adjoining land owners agree on property lines before you cut, it is a lot easier to settle things BEFORE a tree is cut than trying to pay for damages later.
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PAFaller

As stated above its not exactly your job or obligation to mark boundaries, but you definitely want to know where they are. Ignorance is never an excuse to break the law and cut someone elses timber. In many states timber trespass is at least double the stumpage value, if it can be proven malicious usually 3x or more the assessed value. And you are the guy with the saw, so unless the landowner marks the trees and you have in writing a signed contract from him that hes liable you are going to deal with the court too. Not sure what you have for liability insurance but some agencies offer over-cutting at an additional rate. Contracts are your best friend, Id pay to have a lawyer work with you to write up a good one and make sure you have every detail spelled out. Its good for both sides, every landowner I have ever worked with likes to know what I am obligated to but it also protects you from picky and or shady landowners. More than one logger has started a job only to find the landowner wants more money, a higher percentage, firewood pulled for nothing etc. It happens, so the contract in many instances protects both parties.
It ain't easy...

Black_Bear

Quote from: br389 on January 18, 2013, 07:20:10 PM
I live in Oswego county in ny and its just a 20 acre lot and I'am harvesting anything 16" and up

Whether you're cutting 5 acres or 5000, it's good to have your T's crossed and your I's dotted. There are numerous sample timber contracts online that will give you an idea as to what should be covered. There are a lot of pitfalls out there.

Here is what can happen on 18 acres. This incident occurred in Maine and a NY judge may look at it differently, but the forester and the logger both took it hard in the wallet:

http://bangordailynews.com/2012/12/23/news/portland/supreme-court-doubles-damages-in-washington-county-timber-harvest-case/?ref=search


Ron Wenrich

I wouldn't rely on tax maps.  Some of those aren't very good.  We had one guy who walked a logger out to their woodlot and told him he owned everything from a certain point to the top of the mountain.  The tax map didn't have the 20 acre woodlot that was owned by someone else.  It was the only spot with decent timber, and was the first thing the logger cut.

The logger ended up in court.  They tried for a felony charge, but didn't get it.  Eventually it went back on the landowner, but you don't want to be caught in the middle of any disagreement.  It costs you money you don't get reimbursed for.  Contracts protect you.

I always like to contact the adjoining landowners.  Not really their business, but sometimes you get more business from it.  I've gotten several sales by doing so. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Mark K

In NY you dont have to let the adjoining landowners know your cutting. I have found that it is good practice to talk to them at the beginning of harvest. I figure that way if there is a problem down the road they wont be affraid to talk to ya rather than jumping to conculsions. I have picked up extra work that way a good many times. If its your first harvest, I would get a forester involved. He will show you what to cut and what not to cut. Diameter cutting isnt the best practice in good hardwood. 
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br389

Thanks for the advice guys..... I'am in the process right now of buying my first skidder which is a jd 540 b  and I'am getting very excited.... Now here's another question before I choose which mill to take my logs to should I get ahold of like three different timber companies and make them bid on my logs once i get a decent pile of them on the landing so that way I know I'am getting a good deal?

WDH

In my experience in the South, it is best to develop a good reliable market for your wood that you believe pays a fair price.  Do a good job for them.  Haul good quality material within the specs and do not hide off quality material in the load.  Be steady and reliable.  Be there for them when they need wood.

You see, the worm turns.  If you play everyone against each other and both ends against the middle, they will have no loyalty to you.  Then, when wood gets plentiful, they will have little use for you.  You will be on strict quota or have none at all.  You will get hung out.  Their loyal and reliable suppliers and loggers will get the business.  You will be the lowest class of producer in their value system.  You want to be the highest class of producer. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

thecfarm

I only dealt with a few mills. It was only me and my Father cutting,with a farm tractor and I had a full time job,so we was not moving a load a week. Some only took hardwood. We mostly dealt with a mill that took Eastern White Pine. That's really what we was only trying to cut. But this same mill would take hardwood too. Since we was on a small scale that helped out alot. If a couple hardwood trees was in the way,we could still get rid of them. We might not of got top dollar,but there was no way for us to sit on the logs and wait for a load of hardwood. There would of started to turn bad on us. I don't know about NY and I have been out of the loop for 10 years,but this area did not bid on common logs. We had  the logs hauled to the mill and they scaled them. Your pulp you will probably have to haul under someone else's contract. Some will charge you to do this,but others will let you do it for nothing. Which is the right thing to do.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Kemper

WDH is right on, find a mill that pays a fair price, scales fairly and you take care of them when you can & they will take care of you when they need to. I would also be set up to do pulpwood. It helps on the logs & really off sets expenses. There are some jobs a load of pulp will bring more than a load of logs.

Quote from: WDH on January 25, 2013, 07:56:56 AM
In my experience in the South, it is best to develop a good reliable market for your wood that you believe pays a fair price.  Do a good job for them.  Haul good quality material within the specs and do not hide off quality material in the load.  Be steady and reliable.  Be there for them when they need wood.

You see, the worm turns.  If you play everyone against each other and both ends against the middle, they will have no loyalty to you.  Then, when wood gets plentiful, they will have little use for you.  You will be on strict quota or have none at all.  You will get hung out.  Their loyal and reliable suppliers and loggers will get the business.  You will be the lowest class of producer in their value system.  You want to be the highest class of producer.

Andrew Lawrence

Take your time,play it smart, you will make more money by doing your homework. Talk with every log  buyer you can,every mill,and get your numbers straight before putting saw to tree. Go to the mills,or log yards and look at what they are sawing, ASK all questions you can think of, they will help you alot.But keep in mind they're  out to make money also.Don't send veneer to a pulp mil:-)
Lawrence Lot Clearing Logging                            To God be the glory

thecfarm

Kemper,a load of pulp will bring more than a load of logs??? I believe you but ??? Most I ever got per cord and that was hard wood was around $65.Numbers maybe be off but I know I NEVER got paid more for pulp than logs. I know diffeant region and species of wood.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

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