Thickness for Table Top ??

Magicman · January 16, 2013, 09:27:57 PM

I know that I have too many irons in my fire already, but I have a table to build. I realize that it boils down to personal preference but I am looking for opinions on the table top thickness.

If I use 1", then I have plenty of dried Cherry. If the top is 1½" or thicker, then I will saw it from some 10' Cherry logs that have been down and bucked for two years. Of course I would also have the option of doubling the already sawn 1" for a 2" thick table top.

This is the design that I am thinking about using, but I have no problem with running the boards to the end and leaving the end grain exposed.

Dodgy Loner · January 16, 2013, 09:37:39 PM

My personal preference for a kitchen table is about a 7/8"-1" thick top, but if you go with a thinner top, then the base needs to be lighter in appearance to match. If you are going with that design for the base, then I think a 1.5" - 2" top would look about right.

You wouldn't necessarily need to cut new lumber, though - you could use WDH's method for making a thick-looking top out of thin lumber where the end grain still matches:

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,62595.0.html

clww · January 16, 2013, 09:53:41 PM

Personally, I prefer the thicker tops. In my experience I have found that the individual boards are also less likely to cup, or bow, when they are thicker. I always alternate the rings (up then down) when gluing together, with or without biscuits.

Magicman · January 16, 2013, 09:57:09 PM

I think that the table top above was about 1½" and the legs were probably 3½"-4".

I could glue up and make the legs or saw them out. I could attach them any number of ways. The only absolute right now is that I have to build it. ;D

Axe Handle Hound · January 16, 2013, 10:01:57 PM

I'm with Dodgy on this. I used 1" for my kitchen table top and it's plenty strong, but I think it looks a bit thin compared to the base. If I had to do it over again I'd go with at least 1 1/2" thick lumber to even out the aesthetics.

Dodgy Loner · January 16, 2013, 10:02:23 PM

Quote from: clww on January 16, 2013, 09:53:41 PM
In my experience I have found that the individual boards are also less likely to cup, or bow, when they are thicker. I always alternate the rings (up then down) when gluing together, with or without biscuits.

I have never had trouble with cupping, so I always arrange my boards so they look best, without regard to ring orientation. Usually cupping is results from laying your boards on a flat surface where air can't circulate around both sides, or from leaving them lying where one side is exposed to the sun or another heat source. The board's surfaces end up with a moisture gradient and you get cupping. Taking care to ensure airflow and keeping them out of the sun and away from other heat sources should reduce their tendency to cup.

Tree Feller · January 17, 2013, 12:59:54 AM

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on January 16, 2013, 10:02:23 PM
I have never had trouble with cupping, so I always arrange my boards so they look best, without regard to ring orientation.

I do the same, Dodgy.

s for tabletop thickness, I think it depends on the style. I have a Mesquite dining table with a 7/8" thick top but the legs are slim, tapered affairs and the apron is narrow. In furniture building, proportion is everything.

MM, for a table like you displayed in the pic, I'd make the top a full 1 1/2" thick. Anything less robust wouldn't look right with those heavy, square legs and overall solid appearance.

You could use solid stock or do like Danny did and double up the edge to make it appear thicker.

Mooseherder · January 17, 2013, 03:39:37 AM

The table we are building right now is very similar to your picture.
My daughter showed me a picture of table legs she wants and it is exactly as you posted. I started with 1 1/2 stock for the top before the planing. It is now just over 1 1/4. I'm on the fence about how thick we'll go. We are supposed to start on them tonight and she has done a good job of supervising so far. If my legs are too big it'll be her fault. :D

Lud · January 17, 2013, 07:17:31 AM

If it's going to stay in one place..build it stout. If it needs to move around- or travel...make it light.

I do like breadboard ends for stability. And use a wood burner to sign the underside of the table for posterity. It may be the thing you build that lasts the longest! 8)

SwampDonkey · January 17, 2013, 03:28:50 PM

I do as Dodgy and not worry about up and down. I often have boards that are only good (clear) on one side. To use them I have to match what looks good.

I was also going to suggest, heft and thickness depends on how much your going to be moving it. ;D The thickest table we ever had here was from red pine, with 1-1/2" top. Any hardwood (including old stuff) was 1" thick tops.

Get your back support belt out. ;)

POSTON WIDEHEAD · January 17, 2013, 03:52:53 PM

Magic, what ever thickness, shape, size or species you choice to build your table......I know it will look good.
The way you build your clocks are stunning.

Brad_bb · January 17, 2013, 10:03:31 PM

What is the use of the table? Thicker and heavier for a kitchen table that you'll eat at all the time. An office table, or a side table I'd build lighter. I' have an office table I'm building now and the top is slightly over an inch thick Walnut. I'm partial to the breadboard end as well. You could also make your breadboards long(I just learned that term from this post) and your inbetweens short- like this table if it were stretched in the breadboard direction:

POSTON WIDEHEAD · January 17, 2013, 10:13:48 PM

How do you guys attach the breadboard? Biscuits?

clww · January 17, 2013, 10:17:24 PM

That's what I normally use, or dowels.

POSTON WIDEHEAD · January 17, 2013, 10:21:13 PM

Quote from: clww on January 17, 2013, 10:17:24 PM
That's what I normally use, or dowels.

Getting one of those tools to cut in a biscuit hole is next on my list.

clww · January 17, 2013, 10:27:54 PM

I got a dowel installation/alignment tool at Sears a number of years ago. I think it goes up to a half inch dowel.

Mooseherder · January 17, 2013, 10:34:32 PM

This is how we attached the breadboard after seeing Lud's timely post on his table project.
It will also be supported with the apron underneath.

POSTON WIDEHEAD · January 17, 2013, 10:37:39 PM

Moose, is this done with a router?

Mooseherder · January 17, 2013, 10:42:22 PM

Yes, the groove was done with a table router.
The tongue was made on my radial arm saw.
I just indexed it by hand. It took a little time but wasn't painful.
A dado blade on a table saw would probably work also.

POSTON WIDEHEAD · January 17, 2013, 10:49:40 PM

Quote from: Mooseherder on January 17, 2013, 10:42:22 PM
Yes, the groove was done with a table router.
The tongue was made on my radial arm saw.
I just indexed it by hand. It took a little time but wasn't painful.
A dado blade on a table saw would probably work also.

I learn something everyday.......thanks MH.

Dodgy Loner · January 18, 2013, 09:11:00 AM

This would be the traditional method, David. There is a short tongue that rides along the length of the end, with a few longer tenons along its length. It is pegged through elongated holes in the tenons, which allow the top to expand and contract without cracking. You can use glue as well, but if you do, only put it along a few inches of length, either in the front of the panel or the middle, depending on whether you want the contraction to occur only at the back of the panel or equally on the front and back.

Planman1954 · January 18, 2013, 09:35:46 AM

Magic...I'm sure you have already know that you could use all 1" thick boards for the top, and then glue another 1" thick board a few inches wide around the bottom perimeter on a 45d corner joint to achieve a thicker appearance. Or, use a thicker breadboard end board and add the two on the sides. Just a couple of thoughts...(I try to do things the easy way :D)

Dodgy Loner · January 18, 2013, 11:18:24 AM

Quote from: Planman1954 on January 18, 2013, 09:35:46 AM
Magic...I'm sure you have already know that you could use all 1" thick boards for the top, and then glue another 1" thick board a few inches wide around the bottom perimeter on a 45d corner joint to achieve a thicker appearance.

This sounds like a recipe for wood movement disaster :P

Tree Feller · January 18, 2013, 12:20:46 PM

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on January 18, 2013, 11:18:24 AM
This sounds like a recipe for wood movement disaster :P

Yep. A panel as wide as a table top will push the miters apart with seasonal expansion.

It's the same with a breadboard end. Biscuits and glue don't allow for the seasonal movement of the top. Dodgy's method is the correct way to attach a breadboard. When the groove and tenons are milled, fit the breadboard, clamp it in place and drill the holes for the dowels. Now remove the breadboard and elongate those holes, angling the elongation slightly towards the tabletop. Re-install the breadboard and pin it with short dowels, applying glue to the last 1/4" or so. I also glue the center 8 inches or so and let the movement occur on both ends of the breadboard.

You could also drill the holes through the breadboard, fit the breadboard and mark for the holes in the tenons. Drill the tenon elongated holes offset towards the tabletop about 1/32". Now when you pin them with the dowels (tapered on the bottom) it will add additional force holding the breadboard against the panel. That's known as draw-boring.

Axe Handle Hound · January 18, 2013, 02:56:16 PM

Quote from: Tree Feller on January 18, 2013, 12:20:46 PM
Quote from: Dodgy Loner on January 18, 2013, 11:18:24 AM
This sounds like a recipe for wood movement disaster :P

Yep. A panel as wide as a table top will push the miters apart with seasonal expansion.

It's the same with a breadboard end. Biscuits and glue don't allow for the seasonal movement of the top. Dodgy's method is the correct way to attach a breadboard. When the groove and tenons are milled, fit the breadboard, clamp it in place and drill the holes for the dowels. Now remove the breadboard and elongate those holes, angling the elongation slightly towards the tabletop. Re-install the breadboard and pin it with short dowels, applying glue to the last 1/4" or so. I also glue the center 8 inches or so and let the movement occur on both ends of the breadboard.

You could also drill the holes through the breadboard, fit the breadboard and mark for the holes in the tenons. Drill the tenon elongated holes offset towards the tabletop about 1/32". Now when you pin them with the dowels (tapered on the bottom) it will add additional force holding the breadboard against the panel. That's known as draw-boring.

I consistently find myself nodding in agreement with everything you and Dodgy write on all these woodworking threads.

Woodey · January 19, 2013, 10:06:47 AM

MM,
Lots of good information has been shared.

Let us know how your table turns out!

Planman1954 · January 19, 2013, 10:33:17 AM

If a 1" perimeter board is glued and screwed along the grain of the 2 sides the length of the table, it will remain stable. The 45d joint is under the corners, if the wood is properly dry before construction with a biscuit in the 45, I don't believe it will move. The end pieces should be 2" thick breadboards. That is where movement occurs. There would NOT be a problem. Maybe I'm not expressing my thought clearly.

Guys..I've built projects for 40 years. They are all still intact.

beenthere · January 19, 2013, 11:19:22 AM

planman
I trust you know what you are doing. I just am not following what it is, and lose you when you add the 45° joint. How about a pic?
Seems adding thickness like WDH so end grain is seen (no breadboard) would be the safest way to go.

Planman1954 · January 19, 2013, 12:02:02 PM

Here's a quick drawing...not perfect...but gives you the idea.

Mooseherder · January 19, 2013, 12:06:06 PM

Thanks for that drawing Planman.

It really helps aspiring woodworkers like myself with some direction.

beenthere · January 19, 2013, 12:33:41 PM

Got it Planman. Thanks

Axe Handle Hound · January 19, 2013, 07:34:49 PM

Planman- that's a really interesting way to add a false edge to a table top. I don't think I've ever seen that approach used before. If you say that has worked for you before I'll believe you. I've certainly seen joints before that technically shouldn't work, but ultimately do. Do you have any photos of a project you've built using this joint? I'd really be interested in seeing how it looks beyond just the schematic.

Tree Feller · January 19, 2013, 08:51:40 PM

Same here, Planman. If that design works for you, great.

Just a note. We have a Walnut blanket chest in our bedroom and the lid has breadboard ends. The Walnut was dried to 7% MC in my solar kiln and I built the blanket chest almost immediately after moving the lumber to my shop.

I noticed this morning that the breadboards were extending past the top panel by about 3/32" on both sides. I glued the center 1/3 of the breadboard to the 24" wide top and the ends are secured with draw-bored pegs in elongated holes.

I don't know what the EMC inside my home is but it's evidently less than 7% MC in winter because that top panel shrunk. I expect the breadboards will be back flush with the panel by June or so when the panel expands.

The point is that wood moves with changes in RH. I've had some heartbreaks because I didn't account for that movement in my design. Once burned, twice shy. ;)

Bogue Chitto · January 19, 2013, 09:06:00 PM

MM this one is 2 inch top with 4x4 legs. Son built it last year.

Magicman · January 19, 2013, 09:51:43 PM

Thanks to all for the information and as usual, I keep my wagon loaded, and my wagon ain't even red. Here I am working away every minute of my "spare" time on the Cabin Addition, and I ask about a table.

Yup, when the Addition is completed, "She" said that I would build a dining table which will occupy the existing living room. The table that we saw in Birch Run, Mi. that I pictured in the OP kinda caught our eye, but I am quite sure that I will leave the board ends because I kinda like that look. I just may do that WDH trick.