Where to take out 8x12 beams from 36" WO

[terrifictimbersllc]

Cutting out some 8x12x18'  white oak beams this week from 34-36" logs with my 10" swing mill.  12" width means "double cutting" with the swing mill, so the 12" dimension will be in the horizontal.   Not sure yet how much customer knows about sawing, maybe a lot.  He's commercial and the dimensions came from his architect.   Want to give the best input I can. Your advice appreciated.

I can see 3 alternatives,  and am wondering if one is "standard" ,or the best. Is the decision affected by which way the beam is to be used (load bearing on either the 8" or 12" face for example?)

1) 8x12 is taken horizontally and heart center, so the 12" face will look mostly QS with rift in the middle.  The 8" dimension will look flat sawn.
2) 8x12 taken horizontally free of the heart/juvenile wood, above or below the center of the log.  12" faces flatsawn, 8" faces rift sawn.
3) 8x12 taken horizontally free of the heart/juvenile wood, to the right or left of center.   12" faces are QS, 8" faces flat sawn.

[drobertson]

Wish I could help, but you guys with the swing mills are out of my league, I still don't fully undertsand how they work, meaning the cut procedures. I look foward to following this project for sure,   

[terrifictimbersllc]

Wish I could help, but you guys with the swing mills are out of my league, I still don't fully undertsand how they work, meaning the cut procedures. I look foward to following this project for sure,

Mine is more a question of where best to take an 8x12 out of a 36" log, and whether which face of the 8x12 will be load bearing would affect how it is taken out.   Probably doesn't matter that I am swing milling I guess.

A 10" swing mill will cut 10 inches deep in the horizontal or vertical dimension.  One can get between 10 and 20" wide boards by cutting horizontally both up one side of the board and then back down the other side.  Can't do this vertically with a swing mill.   

Here's a Peterson Video of "double cutting":  http://petersonsawmills.com/mill-operations/double-cutting/

[drobertson]

I hear ya, someone will be on soon with a some good info I'm sure, cool video, thanks, neat machines, real neat.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Terrifictimbersllc,

Send me a private message, I'll give you my phone number or google search "Tosa Tomo," and you'll find my number that way.  I can talk you through it on the phone, then you can post your outcome decision here on the FF with photos.

Regards,  jay

[scsmith42]

Jay, are you going to recommend a boxed heart timber, or to mill them flat sawn for maximum yield?

[KnotBB]

Consideration I'd go through:

Be sure the trolly sawing area is centered on the log so the saw will get by on both sides

I don't want heart center in the beam.  If it's there it will crack,  If the heart is bad it won't make good lumber (common in this area).

At 8" not much chance of the "board cupping" so flat saw/quarter sawn is not an issue.

I'd center the saw based on the heart center of the log and not the bark edge. Better slope of grain.

I'd open the log and take the first 8 x 12 I could saw. (I have a Lucas.)

I'd also keep as little sap wood in the finished product possible.

Charge double what ever was normal.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Scsmith42,

He and I will talk on the phone, so I have more details of what he needs.  He will post his final outcome on this thread as soon as he's done, I'm sure.

Hello KnotBB,

I don't mean to counter you, but I timber frame and mill for the craft. I have run/owned both circle, swing, band and traditional pit saw, Japan's Kobiki, hewed timbers and water driven sash saws.  In most cases, not all, you want the heart centered, sap wood is negligible in most species, desirable in some, never any grain drift if you can avoid it.  Those are some of the basic generalizations, not hard fast rules.

Regards,   Jay

[T Welsh]

I was thinking the same thing when I saw this thread. Regardless of the size of the mill or log. If you want a straight beam you will need to box the heart. Taking this beam from anywhere else in the log will cause it to bow. Tim

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi T. Welsh,

The question is how much?  We often take beams out of timbers that aren't pith center.  They may have some "camber" but not enough to be a problem.  In many application we want/need the camber.  It will be compensated for with the joinery layout/placement, planed out, or utilized.

Regards,   jay

[beenthere]

terriffictimbersllc said

Mine is more a question of where best to take an 8x12 out of a 36" log, and whether which face of the 8x12 will be load bearing would affect how it is taken out.

Mr White Cloud says

He and I will talk on the phone, so I have more details of what he needs.  He will post his final outcome on this thread as soon as he's done, I'm sure.

Maybe terrifictimbersllc was asking for the collective Forestry Forum members input ??

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Good Day Beenthere,

I did not intend to sound like Terrifictimbersllc or I was not listening to other's feedback.  My apologies if I did. Terrifictimbersllc contacted me off forum privately to discuss details of the project, that is all I was referring to.

Apologies,

jay

[sigidi]

In my milling operation I'd look a smaller log for this job, I'd look at taking it from a log about 16" and I'd box it, so blade is lined up with heart in vertical plane and rails lined up with heart in horizontal plane, then just get the beam out of the log - nothing else.

I'd do this to try and provide the straightest piece of lumber in that size I could, ok if there was some other specifics to be gleaned regarding the end use of this beam that may change things, but on face value of what has been given - that's what I'd look at doin

[drobertson]

This was my original thought as well. sigidi, however, as has often happen with me, my custormers provided logs of variable sizes then had in mind what they wanted to do with them. Not sure if this is the case, but would makes sense to me as to the stock being used.  This is why I am interested in the process to see what comes from it. Swing blade mills are pretty cool machines,  probably never have one, but still neat stuff. 

[Ianab]

There are 2 ways to approach beams.

Heart centered, or totally free of heart.

If I was cutting 8 x 12 beams from logs that size I would be taking three. One starting 12" above the pith, and centred on the log, Number 2 would then centre the pith. This one is going to check, but should stay rreasonably straight. Then one more from the bottom 1/3 of the log.

The non-centred ones should be well away from the juvenile wood around the pith, and have the sapwood removed, they should be good as well.

Local knowledge of your tree species is important of course. Some things you can get away with in different species etc.

Ian

[KnotBB]

Hello KnotBB,

I don't mean to counter you, but I timber frame and mill for the craft. I have run/owned both circle, swing, band and traditional pit saw, Japan's Kobiki, hewed timbers and water driven sash saws.  In most cases, not all, you want the heart centered, sap wood is negligible in most species, desirable in some, never any grain drift if you can avoid it.  Those are some of the basic generalizations, not hard fast rules.

That's a common practice to be able to get large timbers out of small logs.  I just avoid it if I can.  FOHC (free of heart center) timbers get a premium over heart centered because the likely hood of major splitting cracks is reduced.  Also 90% of our local oaks in that size have heart shake/rot and are only suitable for firewood.

[JohnM]

TTllc, I'm curious as to why you're using the Peterson and not the WM?  Log dia?  Pics or it didn't happen! ;D

JM

[KnotBB]

FWIW.  Here's another approach.

If you have equipment big enough and the log is nice enough it might be possible to get up to 6 FOHC 8 x 12's out of a 34" to 36" log or at least 5 with one having boxed heart.

Take first one as soon as possible or an inch lower.  Roll log 180 degrees.  Take second one as soon as possible or an inch lower.  Both centered on the pith.  Roll log 90 degrees.  Flatten.  Roll log 180 degrees.  You should have a center piece about 14" to 16" wide.  Open and measure down.  Decide whether there are three of four more timbers.  If three, box the heart on the center one.  Finish double cutting. If you didn't get an exact 90 degree roll you'll need to dress the edge with a skim cut.

At 72 bdf per timber it should pay for the extra effort of rolling the log. 

You can draw it out on the end of the log

[pnyberg]

TTllc, I'm curious as to why you're using the Peterson and not the WM?  Log dia?  Pics or it didn't happen! ;D

JM

According to the log weight calculator in the Forestry Forum Tool Box, a 36" diameter 18' long white oak would weigh over 8000 pounds.  Way over the 4400 pound upper limit of an LT40.

I have to agree with Ianab, the geometry suggests 3 horizontal 8x12's in a vertical stack with the middle one centered on the pith.

--Peter 

[JohnM]

According to the log weight calculator in the Forestry Forum Tool Box, a 36" diameter 18' long white oak would weigh over 8000 pounds.  Way over the 4400 pound upper limit of an LT40.

--Peter

Thanks, Peter.  I was looking at the log in 2D not 3D. ;D

JM

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Dennis,

I didn't help much, sounds like things went o.k. for you.  Let us all know the details of what you got from the job.  Pictures would be great.  I did wonder if you got much "camber," out of any of the beams.  Do you know what kid of job they are going in?

Regards,  jay

[terrifictimbersllc]

Hi y'all.  It's a good job. Not quite done yet.  I've got some pictures which I will post after I clean the sawdust out of my camera.  PNyberg is right above, most of the logs are way too heavy for my LT40.  Peterson just stocked some parts with Hud-Son in Barneveld NY.  I just phoned in an order for a  new blade so I can be sure to keep on milling at a different job next week.  Got 2 blades to send to the saw doctor.  But what fun it has been.  Cut quite a few 8x12 x18'  out of 24-29" dia red oak logs, above and below the center, and some boxing the heart. Some of the WO turned out to be RO.  Completely slabbing 2 36" x 16-18' WO into 2-1/4 slabs.   Customer is happy and I am tired.   

[terrifictimbersllc]

Finally reporting on this sawing job.  It turned out that 6 of the large logs I sawed for this business were red not white oak, and 24-30" diameter, 18' long.  The 8x12's were to be decorative not structural and the customer wanted them taken out free of the heart.    So we took them horizontally, above and below the pith.   

 

First to clear the left side of the 8x12.  I am referring to right/left from the sawyer operating position. This was taken out as several vertical 2" boards (not shown). 


Next to clear the other side of the 8x12, again making two 2x's from this corner, and then undercutting down the right, and back up the left with wedges, not shown: 

 


Two 4x6's on either side and a 6x10 (shown), were taken across the center, and then both sides of the lower 8x12 were cleared 

  

 

Finally, the lower 8x12 was under-cut on each side.  There was enough wood remaining to keep things stable.
 

 

Ready for the next log!  John my host and helper was an excellent fork lift driver. 


Now, back to the 36" White Oaks.  We slabbed these.  Looking at 18' of 36" wide slab 2-1/4" thick.




Here are a bunch of slabs all were very nice, 16' and 18' long, up to 36" wide.   That night I was sharpening chains in the warehouse there till 7:30 pm.   Around 8:30 pm I was sitting in a diner staring at the menu.  The next morning at 4:30am I was staring at my laptop in a motel, trying to find a route to my next destination.  There's nothing normal about a road trip with a swing mill to saw up big logs. 

[drobertson]

Very nice work! very impressive as well, thanks for sharing tt, you guys with the petterson's amaze me. 

[Nomad]

     TT, I'm not real familiar with a Peterson.  But I think it's easier to reverse direction than it is with a Lucas?  Is that how you made the cuts in pic #2?  Nevermind; re-reading your last post it's an 8x12.  No option in the matter.  I wish I were more comfortable with a cut like that with my Lucas.