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Wood is Smoking Blades

Started by Pitch, January 09, 2013, 03:00:59 PM

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Pitch

I've got a chunk of dry tropical wood.  It's at 8 percent moisture so very dry.  It's not the most dense piece of tropical wood, I'd say somewhere in the middle .60.  The piece is 10' long and 12" wide.  It's 2" thick and I've been trying to rip it into two 7/8" boards.

I tried cutting this stuff with my softwood blades and my hardwood blades.  With a brand new blade out of the box it will cut for about eight inches and start to send out blue smoke.  I've dulled 4 blades on this piece of wood.  I've been cutting this stuff in my woodshop with no problems (carbide).

I've ordered one of the S-Tip blades from Woodmizer, when it gets here I will try it.

If anybody has any other ideas I'm all ears.

I tried searching for info but didn't come up with much.


POSTON WIDEHEAD

Wow Pitch.....I feel for ya. You said Tropical wood....do you know the species?
I personally don't have an answer but just wanted to know if you knew.

Somebody will have an answer.

Good Luck to you.


The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Dodgy Loner

I don't suppose you have any idea what kind of wood it is? Some tropical species have silica in the wood (basically, very fine sand), which will dull anything short of carbide in short order. If it's just a very hard wood, then you might try a 4° blade. I've never used them, but many folks on here have recommended them for dry hardwood.
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Pitch

I've tried to figure out what kind of wood it is with no luck.  It was given to someone then given to me.  I was shocked at how fast it dulled the blades.  I have planed it with standard planer blades without a problem.

I may try one of the cobalt blades from Timberwolf if the S-Tip doesn't get it done.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: Pitch on January 09, 2013, 03:19:26 PM
I have planed it with standard planer blades without a problem.



Ok Pitch....don't hollar at me now  :D.....but if you have sawed this stuff in your shop with success and planed it with success......your blade on the mill is not put on reversed is it?  :)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Bogue Chitto

 Did you check for metal at the point of going dull.   ??? :)

Pitch

No reversed bands and no metal.

mesquite buckeye

Is there tension in the wood that closes the kerf on you? If so, you can stick a skinny wedge in the kerf to keep it open. I have seen a lot of this kind of thing happen when I cut eucalyptus or other highly figured wood.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

mesquite buckeye

Quote from: Dodgy Loner on January 09, 2013, 03:11:00 PM
I don't suppose you have any idea what kind of wood it is? Some tropical species have silica in the wood (basically, very fine sand), which will dull anything short of carbide in short order. If it's just a very hard wood, then you might try a 4° blade. I've never used them, but many folks on here have recommended them for dry hardwood.

I've used the 4° blades for dry desert ironwood and mesquite. They still get hot really fast without cooling water....

They do work though.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Pitch

I won't be yelling at anybody.  This free lumber is starting to get expensive.  Just ordered a Cobalt blade from Timberwolf.

I normally cut green Fir/Cedar/Maple on my mill.

This is new territory for me.  I'm not a novice but I don't make a living with the mill.

I had thought the wood might be abrasive but I didn't have any trouble planing it with my non-carbide planer knives.

I literaly pulled a brand new hardwood blade from the box and tried to cut a piece this morning.  It went about 8" before it started to smoke and stopped cutting.

The only thing I can think of is that the combination of dry/hard/slightly abrasive is dulling the blades?

I thought about emailing Cook Woods in Oregon.  They are close by and I've purchased tropical wood from them.  I know they operate at least one Woodmizer.

Pitch

Quote from: mesquite buckeye on January 09, 2013, 03:39:33 PM
Is there tension in the wood that closes the kerf on you? If so, you can stick a skinny wedge in the kerf to keep it open. I have seen a lot of this kind of thing happen when I cut eucalyptus or other highly figured wood.

That's the first thing I thought of when I tried cutting the first piece.  I put a wedge in there and it made no difference.  This second piece didn't close at all.  Good suggestion though.

Bogue Chitto

Are you using blades from the same box every time this happens?  I had a problem with my blades diving and heating up.  Spent lots of time trying to adjust a mill that did not need adjusting.  Turned out it was a brand new box of blades that were set wrong.

Pitch

Quote from: Bogue Chitto on January 09, 2013, 03:52:50 PM
Are you using blades from the same box every time this happens?  I had a problem with my blades diving and heating up.  Spent lots of time trying to adjust a mill that did not need adjusting.  Turned out it was a brand new box of blades that were set wrong.

I've tried:
softwood blades
combo Timberwolf blade
hardwood blade

I thought maybe if I cranked up the water on the mill it would keep the blade cooler.  However, sometimes the mill sits for a month and so I prefer do use diesel/kerosene.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

I have to give you credit Pitch and a pat on the back.....when you ask a question, you make it a good one.  smiley_thumbsup  :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Pitch

Hopefully this will save somebody else a lot of time and money.  I can't be the only knucklehead out there trying to saw through a dry chunk of unidentified tropical wood.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Where you from Pitch? What kind of mill do you have?
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Pitch

I'm from Northwest Washington State near Allyn, WA.  I bought my Woodmizer LT40 Manual mill in 2007.  I run heavy earthmoving equipment in the summer and I build furniture in the winter.

beenthere

Pitch
You said
QuoteThe only thing I can think of is that the combination of dry/hard/slightly abrasive is dulling the blades?

Have you looked at the blades to confirm that they are indeed dull? i.e. no sharp points on the teeth?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Pitch

Quote from: beenthere on January 09, 2013, 04:10:59 PM
Pitch
You said
QuoteThe only thing I can think of is that the combination of dry/hard/slightly abrasive is dulling the blades?

Have you looked at the blades to confirm that they are indeed dull? i.e. no sharp points on the teeth?

Yes, I think I ruined one of the softwood blades.  I let the hardwood blade cool and tried cutting again to no avail.  I'd say it is dull.

learner

This may not help but when I get a lot of build up on the blade, I run the lube-mizer on continuos stream a few cuts.  Have you tried that to keep the blade cool?  Excessive heat will cause the blade teeth to weaken and the tension to change.  A good Old carpenters trick to make it easier sawing wood with a hand saw, or putting screws into hard wood, is to use bar soap.  Not sure how you could do that with a band mill but you might try using a milk jug full of REALLY soapy water hooked up to the lube system.
WoodMizer LT40 Super Hydraulic, MF-300 FEL, Nissan Enduro 60 forklift, 2 Monkey Wards Power Kraft Radial arm saws, Rockwell series 22-200 planer, Prentiss 210 loader

shelbycharger400

have you thought about getting a roll of plastic sheeting, a few boards and make a trough and soaking that board ?

generally its not recomended to resaw thickness wise due to tension set.

Pitch

Quote from: shelbycharger400 on January 09, 2013, 04:58:09 PM
have you thought about getting a roll of plastic sheeting, a few boards and make a trough and soaking that board ?

generally its not recomended to resaw thickness wise due to tension set.

I've thought about using water unfortunately this piece is designed to go into a desk that I'm currently working on.  The stock is mostly quartersawn and the stuff I've split in the woodshop has come out okay so far.

terrifictimbersllc

Hardest wood I've sawn yet was 24" wide planks of bigleaf maple heartwood, kept inside a dry shop for about 10 years.   I was re-sawing them into 2-3 boards for an instrument maker.  Best result was with a new 4 degree WM doublehard, with water on full to keep the tension up (LT40, lube-mizer). I looked at the tension gauge and went faster or slower whatever kept it from dropping.   Still had some wave but all boards were useful.   The only other option I would imagine might work would be Stellite (I haven't tried it).
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

harrymontana

good to read this post, once we were 'trying' to cut some unknown tropical hardwood logs and had the same problem. These are the possible causes:

for cutting hardwood (we only cut hardwood such as brazilian walnut etc) as we are located in Bolivia, the angle of the teeth of the blade is very important. This is not only the angle of which the teeth is i a U shape or V shape looking from the top side, but also howmuch curve goes into the teeth itself.
Then there is a hardwood such as garapa which has a very nasty glue and after 2 or 3 logs regular sawing blades get stuck and brake. For this wood you need to put some special teeth on you blade. All very expensive and time inefficient, that is why quite some hardwood mills don't like to saw this kind of wood.
Furthermore, we always cool the blade with spraying water constantly on the blade
everything on hardwood

LeeB

I wondeer if going to a lessertooth spacingwould help such as mayby 3/4 or 5/8. Something like would be found in a resaw type blade.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

mesquite buckeye

The water really seems to help. When we cut dry mesquite (really hard) and use lots of water, the blades last 4 or 5 times as long. You have to balance between sawmud accumulation and blade life to get the most out of it.
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

Pitch

I did a bit more research and it's possible that the wood is guatambu or Brazillian Maple as they call it in the wood flooring industry.   

The Stellite Tip blade I ordered from Woodmizer hasn't shown up yet?  There customer service hasn't been doing me any favors.

If that doesn't work I'll try a four degree blade and run water.

mesquite buckeye

Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

learner

I haven't run into anything That hard yet but I Have been considering a metal cutting blade just in case.  I wrote one manufacturer but they haven't answered me.  The blades cost around $80 but for really hard woods I'm considering trying them Once.
WoodMizer LT40 Super Hydraulic, MF-300 FEL, Nissan Enduro 60 forklift, 2 Monkey Wards Power Kraft Radial arm saws, Rockwell series 22-200 planer, Prentiss 210 loader

5quarter

guatambu is not quite as hard as hickory. LeeB has it right. you need 2-3 tpi to saw that stuff, especially since its probably been kiln dried. I doubt the wood is abrasive, as you had no trouble with your planer. another possibility is that the wood may contain resins that were hardened in the kiln and adding to your trouble. If you can post pictures, we'd love to see what you're up to.  ;)
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

mikeb1079

QuoteI haven't run into anything That hard yet but I Have been considering a metal cutting blade just in case

i don't know if that would work.  yes metal bands are made to cut steel but at a much much slower speed than your wood mill.  if you try to run a metal band on a wood mill i would think that you'd just start to burn wood and overheat almost immediately.  if you run into crazy hard wood i would think stellite is a smarter idea.
cheers

ps there was a post a while back from a member who was sawing tropical hardwoods and swore by the munkforssager bands.
that's why you must play di drum...to blow the big guys mind!
homebuilt 16hp mill
99 wm superhydraulic w/42hp kubota

ohsoloco

Since it's only one piece you're trying to cut, could you try the trick some guys use when resawing on a shop bandsaw and use either the table saw or a hand held circular saw to rip a kerf down each edge of the board?  It would greatly reduce the amount of wood that you would need to cut. 

dboyt

Learner, I assume you mean the bi-metal or cobaltized blades designed for cutting through nails in wood?  I've had good luck with them on nails and wire, and they cut wood as cleanly as standard blades do.  They should last longer in hard wood, and I'll be interested in hearing how they work for you.  You're right, though.  They are pricy!
Norwood MX34 Pro portable sawmill, 8N Ford, Lewis Winch

harrymontana

the solutions are only:
- Stellite Tips
- correct angle of the teeth
- correct U or V form of the teeth
- contantly spraying water on your blade
it can also get stuck just because your engine is to little power, you need to go slow and with a high revolution.

Anyway, where you buy your Stellite Tips, this should be a specialist and he must be able to tell you which angle, etc etc is good for getting trhu your wood. Stellite Tips only is not THE solution for just any kind of hardwood, angles are TOO!
everything on hardwood

5quarter

CRTreedude (member) has a Baker saw I think. He's in Costa Rica and cuts Pilon, which is about as hard and heavy as wood gets. maybe he'll chime in with what type of blade he's sawing it with.
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

Fla._Deadheader


Nahh, Pilon (pee lone) is not that hard.   Sounds like he has a board of Ipe (eepay). Here, we call it Tamarindo. We also have Corteza and leche Amarillo. Ipe is flooring wood, sometimes called Brazilian Cherry, depending on who is selling it.

I saw the hard stuff with my Peterson swing blade mill with carbide tipped blades, without much trouble.

I don't like to speak for others, but, I believe the treedude is using a carbide tipped band blade, costing around $100.00 each or so, BUT, I could be off a little.

We used to saw some tropical wood on our oversized Woodmizer, using Munksforsager blades. Had one chunk that the blade constantly chattered in, and we went slow. Never had a board we couldn't cut, and never dulled a good blade in 8". We sharpened at 10° or so on the bandmill.

If that board is a dark brown, it's probably Ipe or whatever it's called in your part of the world. I'm presently converting the Peterson to a wide bandmill, so, in a couple months, I can tell you about my luck sawing Tamarindo and Corteza wide table slabs.  I really don't expect much of a problem, but, mine won't be dried like yours.

I occasionally do cut dry tamarindo with my 2½" Skil Saw. It will definitely burn and dull the blades if I don't go slow and back out occasionally to clear the sawdust out of the kerf.
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   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

learner

Quote from: dboyt on January 11, 2013, 09:44:23 AM
Learner, I assume you mean the bi-metal or cobaltized blades designed for cutting through nails in wood?  I've had good luck with them on nails and wire, and they cut wood as cleanly as standard blades do.  They should last longer in hard wood, and I'll be interested in hearing how they work for you.  You're right, though.  They are pricy!
Yessir, that's what I meant.  I should have been clearer on that.  When it comes to cutting metal, out come the 12" metal cutting saw and the torch!  ;D
WoodMizer LT40 Super Hydraulic, MF-300 FEL, Nissan Enduro 60 forklift, 2 Monkey Wards Power Kraft Radial arm saws, Rockwell series 22-200 planer, Prentiss 210 loader

5quarter

Fla._Deadheader... that's right. it must have been Corteza that i was thinking of...like a billet of steel. although Pilon is only marginally harder than hickory, it's probably what you guys would call softwood down there in paradise.  ;)
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

Pitch

The S-Tip blade from Woodmizer finally showed up on Saturday.  This morning I was able to get it on the mill and it split that board in two perfectly.  I didn't put anything on the blade.

Thank you to everybody for the feedback.  I'll be ordering some of the 4 degree blades to have on hand. 

beenthere

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

learner

That's Great Pitch!  I spoke to a Woodmizer blade specialist today and found out that we are using the Wrong blades for the wood we are sawing.  Two sample blades on the way that should Greatly improve our production.  You never know unless you ask.  Glad you asked and got the right answers.  Saw On!
WoodMizer LT40 Super Hydraulic, MF-300 FEL, Nissan Enduro 60 forklift, 2 Monkey Wards Power Kraft Radial arm saws, Rockwell series 22-200 planer, Prentiss 210 loader

mesquite buckeye

Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

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