iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Tired of lurking, so finely joined the FF

Started by SLawyer Dave, January 08, 2013, 03:57:20 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

SLawyer Dave

I have been lurking behind the scenes as a guest for a few weeks now trying to get a "feel" for the FF and lumber sawing.  I found this wonderful forum by researching portable saw mills, as I am planning to acquire one in the next year or so.  I grew up cutting and splitting firewood with my family.  Then I had my own firewood business that I put myself through college with.  To save money up for law school, I went to work for my step dad, who had a professional tree service.  I was lucky enough to learn from a true master tree expert about roping, climbing and working with trees in an urban environment, (though I always sucked at climbing).   I pretty much took a 15 year hiatus while I went to law school and started my law practice.  By age 40, I found myself 150 lbs over weight, a diabetic and with high blood pressure. 

So started my 6 year, (and counting) quest to lose weight and get back in shape.  I started at the gym with a personal trainer and dietician.  That worked well for a while, (but I hate lifting weights).  Then a friend asked me to help him clear some trees from his land.  I was very pleasantly surprised to find how much I had missed cutting firewood.  So I dropped the gym membership, and started doing firewood on a regular basis.  I now cut and split about a cord a week, and have lost 75lbs as well as the high blood sugar and high blood pressure. 

Feeling so much better, and now with lots more energy, I decided I should finally build the log cabin I have been designing in my head for so many years.  I plan on building a vertical log cabin.  The wall logs will be double faced, with double splines connecting each log so that they will be sealed together with a high insulation value without the need for any chinking.  I am planning on using the portable saw mill to double face the logs, as well as cut the other dimensional lumber I will need to complete the build. 

I am hopeful that the members here can jump start my learning curve about portable mills and cutting lumber, so I can start to make some informed choices.  Most of my logs are going to be Douglas Fir, Ponderosa Pine and a smattering of cedar and redwood.  I am hoping to use fir for the exterior logs, and the pine for planking, (floors walls and ceilings), while the cedar and redwood for trim and finish pieces).  Most of these logs will come in 8' to 10' lengths that I am getting from local tree services or that I am harvesting from local homeowners, (yes, mainly yard trees).  I am currently planning on having a manual saw mill, (as I want the continued work out), and with my busy schedule, don't see me doing any milling other than for my own use.  Given my research here and on the internet, I believe a band saw type mill will be my best choice, due to the higher probability of having some metal in the trees I will be cutting.  Other than these preliminary details, (which I am still pretty tentative of), I am pretty much lost as to what brand of saw mills I should be considering, and whether it would be wiser to try and find a used vs. new saw.  So any help, opinions, warnings, stories and experience you can contribute will be appreciated.

JustinW_NZ

Welcome to the forum!

You have come to the right place for answers to these questions  :)

and trust me when i say if you want a workout you dont just need a manual mill  :D

Cheers
Justin
Gear I run;
Woodmizer LT40 Super, Treefarmer C4D, 10ton wheel loader.

york

Dave,welcome to the FF.....

Getting a workout,is one thing but killing yourself is another,you need Hydraulics......albert
Albert

dgdrls

Welcome aboard Slawyer Dave,

Sounds like you have an ambitious project in mind.
Don't discount the need for a larger mill, as York indicated.
Save your energy for actually building the the cabin
and let the mill and some support equipment do the heavy lifting ;)
Perhaps a swing or dimension mill would be more productive for you?

What branch of Law do you work in??

DGDrls




thecfarm

SLawyerDave,Welcome to the forum. There are many ways to do what you want to do, Can you work on your own stuff? Figure out what is wrong with something? Buying used might need some work,which nothing a matter with that,just normal where and tear. And all manual sawmills are ALOT of work. I have one,BUT I do not use it much. I do have a tractor with a loader that I do use to help turn the ones I have a hard time with. Speaking of a tractor you will need something to move your logs around with. It takes alot of logs to build something too. About how big do you want this cabin? All logs will not be good logs either. Glad to hear about you taking control of your health issue. Good luck,you seem to be doing well with that.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Magicman

Good morning SLawyer Dave, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum.   :)

Since I personally own a Wood-Mizer that is my top choice.  I recommend watching various brands and models of sawmills in action so that you can make up your own mind.  Contact the different manufacturers and discuss shows or events where sawmills will be displayed.  You will know when you find the one that is right for you.

Wood-Mizer has recently formed a Pro Sawyer Network LINK which will open the door for potential sawmill buyers to see and talk with nearby owners and watch their sawmill in action.

Again, Welcome.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

slider

Welcome Slawyer ,I'm with the others on getting something with hydraulics .You will not be disappointed .There are several forum members in California ,may be some one can give you a demo.Good luck and keep us posted.  al
al glenn

drobertson

Howdy Dave, good luck in the near future when you take the plunge, as mentioned, give all the mills a good looking over, I would even suggest trying to run some, the only real way to feel the machine.   david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

dboyt

Welcome to FF.  I went the other direction, sold my hydraulic mill and bought a manual band saw mill.  It was just cheaper and simpler to run, but yes, it will give you a workout.  What diameter logs will you be working with?  Will you be milling by yourself or have some help?  You're right about hitting metal in urban trees.  Like most others on the forum, I've cut some that would have had more value for the scrap metal than for the wood.

The Norwood portable sawmill that I now run has hydraulic options that can be added to it at any time, so you could start out manual and put on a log loader, turner, power feed, and toe boards as you decide you need them.  It handles 34" diameter logs, and the track can be extended as long as you want.  Realistically, you will cut more slowly on a manual mill, but it will get the job done.
Norwood MX34 Pro portable sawmill, 8N Ford, Lewis Winch

sealark37

Welcome to the Forum.  Congratulations on your progress in life.  As I leaf through the usual and customary manual, I was pleased to note that the purchase and use of a sawmill will insulate you from lawyer jokes while on the Forum.  It is considered impolite to make fun of a man whose pockets are full of sawdust.  I have found that the brand debate on sawmills is very similar to that of chainsaw brands.  A good sawyer will make anything work for him.  You must keep in mind that most of the work in sawmilling is just material handling, (more equipment is better).    Regards, Clark

Peder McElroy

Hi Slawyer
I live in Santa Cruz and have a wood-mizer LT40 and also a Lucas 618 swing mill,if your ever down my way I would be happy to run ether one or both for you. Peder McElroy 831-457-0806

Brucer

Welcome!

Look on the left of the screen and you will see a list of suppliers who make good equipment and also help sponsor the Forum :).

Hydraulic mills are nice, if you can afford them. I started with a manual mill and upgraded to a hydraulic one a year later -- but only because I got into major contract sawing for a timber framing company. If you care going to be putting 20' long, 30" diameter, 4000 pound Ponderosa Pine logs on your mill on a regular basis, you will probably want the hydraulics. It can be done with a manual mill (I've done it) but I don't recommend it ;D.

You can sometimes pick up a good used hydraulic mill for the same bucks as a new manual mill, providing you're patient.

Leave some money in your budget for a Logrite cant hook. If you go with a manual mill, a "Mill Special" is mandatory.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

SLawyer Dave

Quote from: dgdrls on January 08, 2013, 06:12:57 AM
Welcome aboard Slawyer Dave,


What branch of Law do you work in??

DGDrls


I have a done a lot of different types of cases through the years, but have pretty much solidified my practice into two major parts:  My private practice, (which pays the bills) and my public practice which takes most of my time.  By private retainer, I assist and represent clients seeking Bankruptcy protection, both Chapter 7 and 13 in Federal Courts.  (I also have a few family law cases that I keep getting roped into, though I am trying to stay out of family law as much as possible).  Then my Public Practice is limited to Juvenile Law, wherein I am appointed by several courts here in Northern California to represent either the minor(s) or their parents both in Dependency cases, (wherein the parents are accused of doing something "wrong" such that Child Protective Services gets involved with their family) and Delinquency cases, (wherein the child is accused of doing something illegal such that the police and probation department get involved).  Juvenile cases are a very unique mix of federal, state, Constitutional, and administrative law, that ultimately is supposed to focus on what is in the best interests of the child(ren).   I particularly likes this area of law because it is constantly evolving, and allows me to not only fight for my clients, and the best interests of the minors, but to try and educate and direct my clients and their families towards making positive changes in their lives.  Just too bad it doesn't pay better.   ;D


SLawyer Dave

Quote from: Peder McElroy on January 08, 2013, 11:21:33 AM
Hi Slawyer
I live in Santa Cruz and have a wood-mizer LT40 and also a Lucas 618 swing mill,if your ever down my way I would be happy to run ether one or both for you. Peder McElroy 831-457-0806

Thanks for that, I may very well take you up on your offer.  I have a step sister and brother-in-law who lives in Felton and my mother has been talking about having me take her down there for a visit this spring, (along with a load of firewood for them since apparently it is like gold down in your area).  So when the details have been worked out, (ie my mother tells me when we are going  ;D ), I will give you a call.

SLawyer Dave

Quote from: sealark37 on January 08, 2013, 10:22:21 AM
It is considered impolite to make fun of a man whose pockets are full of sawdust.  I have found that the brand debate on sawmills is very similar to that of chainsaw brands.  A good sawyer will make anything work for him.  You must keep in mind that most of the work in sawmilling is just material handling, (more equipment is better).    Regards, Clark

Thanks for that.  Though I love lawyer jokes.  While I can honestly say that some of the best folks I have ever met have been lawyers, there are far too many that give our profession a bad name.  Oh, and I am a Stihl man.  Used a lot of saws over the years, Husqys, Poulans, Homelites, etc., but none of them seemed to toe or back cut the way my numerous Stihl saws have.  I still have my original 024 that says, "made in West Germany", that my dad bought me for my 12th birthday.  (Yeah I was a strange kid, that was what I wanted).  I can't count the number of cords of wood I cut with that saw.

mad murdock

Welcome to the Foeestery Forum Slawyer Dave! My suggestion may seem a bit unorthodox but from my perspective, if you are going to be slicing up wood that will have a higher chance of metal content, and you definitely don't want to remove the workout aspect of the process,plus creamsicle is already a color you are used to, click on one of our fine forum sponsors(Bailey's) and take advantage of sale pricing they have on the Logosol M8?!  A CSM(chainsaw mill) will handle metal a little better (no mill really likes sawing metal though) but you won't be flying through the bands every time you hear that "zing" sound ( though you will prolly have to break out the file or chain grinder and straighten things out before you go back to milling if it is of any consequence).  Plus a CSM will give you some versatility and for sure portability, as you won't have to break the bank with support equipment to get the jog done.  While you are at Bailey's though you can get yourselves a Logrite peavy as they have a sale price on those currently as well.  Sounds like a nice project, I can't wait to see some progress pics on here as you get thigs underway!!
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

SLawyer Dave

Quote from: thecfarm on January 08, 2013, 06:38:53 AM
Can you work on your own stuff? Figure out what is wrong with something? Buying used might need some work,which nothing a matter with that,just normal where and tear. And all manual sawmills are ALOT of work. Speaking of a tractor you will need something to move your logs around with. It takes alot of logs to build something too. About how big do you want this cabin? All logs will not be good logs either. Glad to hear about you taking control of your health issue. Good luck,you seem to be doing well with that.

I can generally keep mechanical equipment running/repaired, though I am pretty much at a loss when it comes to internal combustion engines.  My welding skills are not what they used to be, however, so I may need to hire that kind of work out if it comes to building a track for the saw mill, or such structural repairs.  I pretty much have a shop full of wood working tools, but the only "lumber" I have ever cut was with my table saw, out of limbs of specialty wood for a couple wood working projects.  I have started stockpiling logs, and have put out the word to my tree service friends that I am looking for 8' and longer logs.  Currently, I am loading and transporting the logs with my trailer, a portable winch and brute strength.  I will probably end up getting a longer, dual axle trailer that I can put an electric winch,  swivel arm and roller bar on to help load logs more efficiently.  Given that I am going to the work sites and loading these trees off of peoples lawns, driveways, and back yards, using a tractor is generally not going to work.  Further, I have never operated a tractor, but am very comfortable working with winches, pulleys, ropes and chains, which is how I was planning on moving the largest logs.     

The cabin is going to be 16' by 32' with a half loft for a total living area of 768 sq. ft.  The longest log I will need is 16', which will be the ridge beam x 2, with a central support column for the splice.  I was not planning on facing these pieces, as the full round will work out better given the need for the horizontal strength.  One of the main reasons I chose the vertical log cabin style is that they are traditionally built without heavy equipment, which is what I am going to try and emulate.  Except for the central support log, (column), (2) ridge beams, and the roof joists, every other log in the build will be 8' or less. 

SLawyer Dave

Question for you lumberman/sawyers out there:

My original thought, (and what I am currently doing) is gathering logs and letting them start to season under a roofed but open air shelter.  Then I figured I could face them and start cutting lumber once I am to that stage, (and get my mill).  So my question is, what is the downside to cutting dry or seasoned logs as opposed to green.  Most of the logs I will only be cutting to expose two 6" wide flat sides, where the logs will rest against each other vertically.  The rest I am planning on cutting into 1" boards that I will then T&G for decking.

SLawyer Dave

Quote from: mad murdock on January 09, 2013, 03:18:55 AM
click on one of our fine forum sponsors(Bailey's) and take advantage of sale pricing they have on the Logosol M8?!  A CSM(chainsaw mill) will handle metal a little better (no mill really likes sawing metal though) but you won't be flying through the bands every time you hear that "zing" sound ( though you will prolly have to break out the file or chain grinder and straighten things out before you go back to milling if it is of any consequence).  Plus a CSM will give you some versatility and for sure portability, as you won't have to break the bank with support equipment to get the jog done.  While you are at Bailey's though you can get yourselves a Logrite peavy as they have a sale price on those currently as well. 

I had pretty much written off CSM's, because it didn't seem to me that I would get the degree of accuracy and consistency that I wanted.  I followed your reference, however, and the M8 does seem very impressive, and would likely meet my needs, (if it functions the way the video made it look), given that I am not anticipating doing any commercial sawing.  I see in your signature that you have an Alaskan Mill, but the M8 is not listed.  Have you personally used this system?  The video Baileys had made the M8 look very smooth and accurate, but we all know how video editing can make almost anything look better than it is.  Would be interested if anyone here on FF has personal experience with the M8, and their opinions as to its function and accuracy.  The price point certainly is appealing.

Chuck White

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Dave.

Lots of good people here and lots of info.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

WDH

In general, it is best to saw a log as soon as possible after it have been felled.  "Seasoning" can create several issues like making the logs very difficult to saw, especially hardwood, and checking, cracking, splits that form when the outside of the log begins to dry and the core is still wet.  This sets up stress that will be relieved in some manner.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

mad murdock

To answer your question about accuracy of a mill, be it CSM, BSM, or circle mill( swinger or handset), a mill will only cut as true as the operator makes it cut. You can get just as true or crooked a lumber from either of the aforementioned methods, it really depends on the operator. Your observations are correct, I do have an Alaskan mill. I have not used a Logosol, but having spent quite a bit of time around a handset circle mill, obviously that would be my first choice, but money and time don't permit me to go that route yet.  I bought an Alaskan mill, when I was in he need to mill lumber because budget and needs met there.  The Logosol M8 is quite a piece of engineering IMO, and really speeds up and simplifies the process of getting from log to lumber, an Alaskan mill gets you to the same point, just more steps to get there, as everything is done manually, i. e. laying out and marking he first few cuts with precision till you get down to a cant. With the M8 it is simplified a lot because you have the mill doing a lot for you automatically by virtue of its design, I would love an M8 but for now budget constraints keep me with the Alaskan, though I have come up with my own methods to improve production to the point I am satisfied quite well with my methods to the point that I can really live with my production output for the time I put in. My suggestion would be if there are any FF members near you that have a Logosol, or maybe Baileys knows of someone near you who does, check it out in person first, as you can't really get a feel for any mill unless you see firsthand how it is.  As far as green vs dry log millin goes, WDH is spot on, green is quite a bit less effort to mill over dried wood, though it can be done. 
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

kderby

Welcome Slawyer Dave!  You are addicted to sawdust, I see the signs.  I predict you will end up building a summer camp for kids with twenty seven buildings...better get started!

I also want to re-emphasize what WDH realated.  The variation in moisture content in a partially seasoned tree is a real lumber quality issue.  It is much better if you can mill the tree promptly.  A cured tree will have more waste from checking or staining issues.  That means a drop in recovery and value. A log in the process drying can still be workable but it is not optimal. 

There is a sawmill saying: "A hogger is a mill's best friend."  Do not be shy about gifting, grinding or burning marginal material.  When I talk to a potential mill owner I also tell them "You will have more lumber than you know what to do with!"  Once you are rolling, logs and lumber will pile up.  That is a good thing but see it coming.  Keep things organized and get rid of the junk.

Again, Welcome to the gang!

Kderby

MotorSeven

Dave welcome. Before I built my cedar log(conventional horizontal logs) I also thought CSM and even bought two of them. Both the Woodbug & Hudson CSM's were powered by a Stihl 660. CSM's make perfect lumber but what I found out real quickly by using the CSM's was that if I wanted the house built before I was elderly I needed to get a bandmill. I sold them both & bough a LT15 & have zero regrets. I still get my chainsaw fix by running anywhere from 7-10 Stihls(the number varies, I buy them fix them up and sell them). Like you I still have and use regularly my first Stihl bought brand new in 1983...a 024Super.

I kicked around vertical stacking, but went with horizontal. My logs were all 8'ish long squared on 4 sides and weighed around 100 lbs each. I could stand them up, set them on my shoulder and walk them into the house to stack. I carried almost all 300 of them into the house that way(I did have volunteer help from time to time).

Your logs will be similar and can be handled by one man. Where you will need hydraulic help is going to be after the walls are up. Rafters, tie poles, beams, roofing all will require lifting assistance. My 40 horse Kioti tractor handled all of this without a problem. Pallet forks and a man lift for the FEL are recommended. I built my own man lift out of a tractor crate frame free from my dealer. Can you do your build without a machine?...sure, a block & tackle can do anything as long as you have some kind of frame work to attach it to. I used a block and tackle to lift up my 20' collar ties inside the house by myself.

Here is a link to my entire build from day one. There are 98 pages of posts & photographs. Maybe it will help you in your build & if you have any questions feel free to ask:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/156451-log-house-project-begins.html
WoodMizer LT15 27' bed

clww

Many Stihl Saws-16"-60"
"Go Ask The Other Master Chief"
18-Wheeler Driver

Thank You Sponsors!