What kind of posts?

[REGULAR GUY]

I'm told by locals I'm foolish, but I'm fixin to build a small horse paddock 100' x 100' or so,  out of  quartered up White Oak 8' logs in the ground for posts and 1 1/4" clean (no knot) SYP for rails. I'm in So. East Missouri and got White and Black Oak, Sycamore, SYP in abundance with fewer Black Walnut and Hickory. Is there any way to treat posts myself, should they be debarked (in ground portion), treat rails (for longevity, their not wood chewers), only heartwood for the posts ??? Is Sycamore good for posts or rails, or anything else for that matter?  We just moved to the area from out west and seems most got their horses behind barbed wire and "T" posts and told I should do same. Don't wanna!! First,  I got natural resources to save money from buyin, and second It's not the vet bills with the barbed wire, it's that we love our horses!!!!!!   Am I bein stupid or stubborn?  Any help, comments or suggestions?  Thanks in advance,  Regular Guy

[thecfarm]

You mention barb wire and horses here, look out. Most use electic something. I have no idea about your wood usage. Lucky no wood chewers. We had 3 at one time. I would even put used oil on the boards inside the horse run in and they would have to still try it out. Never had to replace any,but they would still have to try.The only thing they would not touch was the PT that I used to hold the building up with. And they had many acres to roam on too.

[REGULAR GUY]

thecfarm, the only thing these guys chew up is stuff in my billfold. But, they are well worth it. Still figurin out what to do and get a "rhythm" goin here, we've moved from out west. Hope your doin good. I always wanted to hunt Maine, but never got there. Take care,        Regular Guy

[thecfarm]

It all takes time no matter if it horses or coming to Maine to hunt. My step son is a registered guide in Maine by the way.  ;)

[Cedarman]

Debark the oak for sure. Not sure how SE Mo soils react with white oak. The sycamore, pine, hickory will be rotted before you get the last shovelful of dirt tamped around the post.
The best long lasting posts are, black locust heartwood, osage orange, and red cedar heartwood.  Those will last many many years.
Black walnut heartwood is very rot resistant too.

[lumberjack48]

We used peeled White Cedar or Tamarack for fence posts. We had horses for many years before i got hurt. Horses and barbwire is not a good mix, we had a couple horses get caught up in barbwire. This is not a pretty site, they made it with a lot of care and big vet bills, a lot of people would have put-em down. The first few days the wife slept in the barn with them.

[thurlow]

Wouldn't use anything in SEMO except what the Cedarman suggested, or..............can you buy used utility poles from your local utility company?

[REGULAR GUY]

Thanks all for your suggestions.     But oooops, talkin of Cedar , I didn't mention that I do have enough Cedar (ERC  ?? I dunno)  for what I need. Would the Cedar or debarked White Oak last longer? Just curious, About how long would White Oak or Cedar last???     Is the debarkin for bug control?    Regular Guy

[lumberjack48]

Cedar well out last Oak, a Cedar post well last about 20 yrs. But this also depends on what kind of soil there being put in.

I know all the old timers used Cedar or Tamarack around here.

[scsmith42]

+1 to what Cedarman said.

Our farm uses cedar rails on yellow locust posts (same genus as black locust), and thus far it has aged very well (7 years).   I expect the cedar rails to last 25 - 35 years, and the posts about 2X - 3X that.

You may want to consider untreated cedar posts, and using the white oak for the fence rails.  The sapwood on the cedar will rot in a few years, but the heart wood will remain solid.  There is a post in the FF archives about "Uncle Bucks stain", that has a formula for DIY wood siding treatment.  It is comprised of a mix of 45% used motor oil (from diesel engines), 45% diesel fuel, and 10% non-fibrous roofing tar.  It works great as a farm-mixed treatment, and it will bleach out to a nice coffee brown color.  If you treat your white oak fence rails with that, they will last longer.

Used utility poles are also pretty tough, if you can find them.  I would not personally mill them, but use them as-is.

+1000 on staying away from barbed wire and T-posts for horses.  In addition to our wooden fences, we've tried several different brands of electric fencing.  The best - by a wide margin - is Horseguard (available on-line).

[thurlow]

I'm a few miles South and East.........in West TN;  don't know how many miles of fencing we had before I retired, but it was a bunch (beef cattle operation).  For us, black locust posts......cut in the Wintertime......were good for about 40 years;  red cedar for about 20 and used/creosoted utility poles lasted about like the locust.  At some point in the '90s, I swapped over to metal "T" posts (for the 'line' posts) because it was cheaper to buy and install them than to pay the labor to help cut/split/install the wood ones.

[Brad_bb]

I've always heard that Black Walnut wood, leaves, nuts etc is poisonous to horses and should not be used near them. 

[woodmills1]

save the oak for the rails

use cedar, locust or PT for posts


rails are easy to replace  posts much harder

the horses will break non hardwood rails and chew them

I cut for a commercial fence company

PT 6x6 posts, my 1 and 1/16 by 6 rails

[Okrafarmer]

Our farm uses cedar rails on yellow locust posts (same genus as black locust), and thus far it has aged very well (7 years). 

???  :P  ??? What is this yellow locust to which you refer? It isn't in the book.

[loggah]

Maybe its honey Locust, I know locusts make great fenceposts you dont have to treat them with anything. Don

[chevytaHOE5674]

I use PT posts for my corner H-braces and then a mix of cedar and T-posts for line posts. The sapwood usually rots off the cedar after a few years and they require additional tamping. I use high tensile fence as its the most cost effective way to fence large areas, but for a 100x100 area I would be tempted to use wire "field fence".

[Okrafarmer]

Maybe its honey Locust, I know locusts make great fenceposts you dont have to treat them with anything. Don

Honey locusts are the ones with thorns on the trunk. We do have them here, although the book says we are out of range. They are in a different genus than black locust.

[drobertson]

I know for a fact the white oak will work. For best results it shoud be split, keeping the heart in the posts, aired a spell, then char the ends that will be in the ground to a point that will be above ground level, we pulled some not long ago that grandpa put in over 40years ago, they were broke by a bull, still solid,   

[REGULAR GUY]

Howdy all, Thanks again,      I've  heard that everything Black Walnut is to be away from horses.  I'm gonna call the power co. and see what prices and whatnot they got for used treated poles. For money sake, I'm boilin it down to either cedar or white oak posts and white oak for the rails. Either Pine or Cedar would be to fleamsy on the rails. I've got enough young Cedar (post size), and I'm thinkin too, that Cedar would outlast White Oak, but either/or would it be better to mill to remove bark or is it the same difference? Out West, the Incense  or Western Red  Cedar has several inches of bark , where this ERC has little.  Is the debarkin strictly for bugs.....or otherwise? I thank ya'll for input .....cuz I'm learnin alot.         Regular Guy

[REGULAR GUY]

Oh yeah!!!!!    I'll  put some gravel around the bottoms espeacially for drainage.   Regular Guy

[Cedarman]

With ERC look for posts that have 3/4" or less sapwood.  The sapwood will rot at 6" above to 6" below ground level in a few years.  If you can saw most of the sapwood off that is great.  Lots of line posts are sawed on the taper with a 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" top and 4 1/2" square base.  If big enough saw 4x4 top and 5x5 base.  Bark on corners will not be a big deal.  Bark keeps moisture in which allows decay to occur is the reason to remove bark.

[REGULAR GUY]

Thanks very much all,         Saw with a taper?!!? how's that done other than shorin up each side?           Regular Guy

[beenthere]

Logs are a cone-shaped cylinder (roughly); that is smaller at one end thus they taper.

If you saw parallel to the surface on each face, the remaining cant will be one with a large end and a small end, but likely all or mostly all heartwood. All the logs taper ending up in the center cant.

The side boards will be mostly sap with some heartwood centers on the inside face.

Done by "shorin up" each side, as you figured it to be.

[Cedarman]

When sawing on a WM,  I taped a 3/4" flat shim board to the rail closest to mill head.  I have all logs with small end toward sawyer. Log will have about 1 1/2 to 2' sticking out over first rail. Butt is on 3d rail.  This is why 3/4" shim will give a 1" taper in an 8' log.  You may need to vary shim thickness to get the taper you want. Lock log in place, small logs can be a little tricky, but with practice you will know how high to place the back stops.  Saw one side, release clamp, rotate 90 degrees saw,  release clamp , rotate 90 degrees, off bearer holds one end as you saw toward him, after sawing about 1/3 down log, off bearer releases hold on log after sawyer puts hold down log. Repeat for 4th side.  Mill head does not change height between 3d and 4th pass.  Off bearer places post in stack, sawyer pulls next log with log hook and places next to back stops.  Off bearer locks log manually or holds while sawyer clamps.  When sawing tapered posts, 2 of us could saw about 1 post every 2 minutes.  It takes a little prep time to get small ends all in one direction.  We were sawing 7' and 8' logs with about a 5" diameter to make a 3 1/2" square top and 6 to 6 1/2" to make a 4" square top.  Posts would have some bark at times on corners.
We made several thousand 25 to 30 years ago.  Now with the end dogging scragg we make only straight posts.