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He wants me to pay him to work !

Started by rooster 58, January 06, 2013, 08:20:57 AM

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rooster 58

    Well I got yet another one of those calls yesterday. Fella says he's got about 30 mature trees of mixed species that need to be taken down. He said he's not a woodsman but needs these down. He wants someone to take them down for free in exchange for the wood  ::) They are in his camp yard and yes he thinks several will need cabled over and yes he would even like to have the brush removed. I told him that trees in camp lots typically have alot of metal in them that drastically reduces their value, and that it would be alot of work just for free wood. Told him I'd look at them today but prbably would pass. He says thats ok but could I recommend someone if I didn't want them.
     I felt like askin him if he has to pay his employer to let him work there. I have been getting many c alls like this from folks, especially for my construction business, just real flaky people that don't understand whats involved and the expense of doing a job >:( >:(  Thats the big reason I want to stop working for the general public and try to focus on commercial and industrial markets

Kansas

Just tell him you don't have the proper type insurance to take them down. Tell him to hire a proper tree trimmer that does have such insurance, and then  you will bid on the logs. Not sure the species,  but if they are oak and walnut, once they are on the ground,you can tell more often than not if they have metal in them. My guess is, he has already contacted a tree removal service, and found out what its going to cost. That is the reason he is calling you.

Meadows Miller


Thats why I dont do that type of work any more  :) sure you get idiots trying to low ball you on the Commercial side of things too had one the other week rang looking for a pretty fair volume of timber then tied to screw me on price I just told him you go find timber at that price and good bloody luck with that Mate he will be back  :) ;) :D :D :D

I agree with Kansas just tell him you dont do falling or your not covered for that type of work and leave it at that till he rings and says their on the ground then you will know what you got and if it worth the trouble Mate  ;)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

Dave VH

sounds to me like 2 different jobs.  1 bid to drop the trees, and clean the area, and another to mill the lumber.  I might try and bid it that way.
I cut it twice and it's still too short

chevytaHOE5674

Some people seem to think their trees are worth gold so you should just be jumping for joy when they offer them to you for free.

I looked at one job that would require climbing and roping most of a red oak down. Tree had a couple nice sawlogs in the butt and then 30-40 feet of limbs and brush on top of that most of which were over top of a house (he wanted 100% of the tree hauled away as well and the stump out). Guy called me to come take a look at it, when I got there he says "how much will YOU pay ME to take it down....?" I actually laughed in the guys face as I walked back to the truck. That was two years ago and I see the tree is still standing.....

taylorsmissbeehaven

I bought some hay from an older fella just before Christmas. He offered me 10 mature pines that were leaning over the hay barn. I could have the wood free and clear if I cut them down, cleaned em up, and hauld it all away. I paid him for the hay and told him it was too big a job for me as I worked a full time construction job. He smiled and nodded, I guess you cant blame a guy for trying!  Brian
Opportunity is missed by most because it shows up wearing bib overalls and looks like work.

thecfarm

Some think the logs are worth alot as lumber. They are in a retail lumber place. They go to these places and see the prices. Or they never cut a tree down in thier life AND cleaned up the brush,chipped it.
I know of a women that had 4-6 big white pine on her front lawn,just below where I grew up. They must of been at least 3 feet across easy,probably heading to 4 feet. Real tall and straight trees.She wanted them all down and someone did come in and do it for the wood. When they got done you wouldn't even know the trees were there. Stumps gone,nice and smooth and even reseeded the lawn. I saw the son later on and said what a nice job and than he told me his Mother was all upset about it because SOMEONE told her how much the logs was worth and she should of got some money. ::)  He told her about all the work involved and how much time and money it takes to do all that. But as he said I don't think she understood. Seems like that's always the way. Someone that has no idea is more convincing than someone that understands the work,money and time involved.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

rooster 58

         Yah, since this is timber country here people seem to think their trees are gold, but don't understand current market prices being paid. And God forbid if they have cherry trees. This region is where 90% of the world's black cherry comes from. So to them any tree is worth a ton O money :D This guy said he thought he had ash, oak, and maple.

Sixacresand

I have beetle killed pines waiting for me cut down.  They are in my yard and I want to get them down before hot weather.  Cleanup will be biggest pain.  So, I surely not going to clean up somebody else's yard for a tree.  LOL
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

Meadows Miller


Loaders help alot with clean up I just trim n dock what I want out of the tree in push the rest up into piles forks or grapple help too if you need to remove it n dump it inot a truck  ;)
4TH Generation Timbergetter

rooster 58

     Meadows, yeah i have a jd tracto with a grapple fork, and even a 14,000 lb dump trailer if necessary. It really helps expedite a cleanup but there again there is a cost involved to have that equipment on the job. If I can burn everything on site that would help a great deal. If I could just knock them down and take the wood, it might be worthwile, I won't know til later today when I go to look at them  ;D

Jay C. White Cloud

Quote
Seems like that's always the way. Someone that has no idea is more convincing than someone that understands the work,money and time involved.

ThecFarm's last two sentences really states it all.  While reading this post thread, I got another call from a referral, and, once again, get to experience the reality of those two sentences.  I can't tell you, especially in this market, how often I'm being told, "how it is," by someone that has absolutely no idea, "how it is."  Being in both the "Tree," and "Timber Framing," world, almost everyday somebody is telling me what something is worth or how much it should cost.

In the last six months, I have had countless comments like, "why do I have to pay to have the tree taken down? It's worth a lot of money." or "Well, if the town will take the tree down for free, will they pay me for the wood that's in it?"

Just this morning, I had a phone call from someone that was very upset by my offer to buy there Barn.  They said, "Are you trying to rip me off, or insult me?  $10,000 is a ridiculous price to offer me for my Barn!  I've been told it's worth five times that amount or more. I'm going to make sure people know what you are trying to do." 

I could hardly get a chance to explain, and was getting really upset that I knew I was going to have to apologize to this extremely rude person, (I left out the swearing!) before I was going to get a chance to explain.  After apologizing to him, more than once and asking if I could explain, he calmed down enough for me to talk.

I rescinded our offer, and asked nicely if he would not slander our business name.  We are doing the best we can in this market, and if he doesn't feel like the price offered for his own barn is fare, he does not have to except it.  Nonetheless, if he tries to undermine our current contracts, (we are talking about several barns in an estate sale,) we will not take that lightly.  I went on to explain that he is correct, his barn is worth more than $10,000, much more like $175,000 to $250,000, but to achieve that amount he would have to do all the work we are going to do.  I went into more detail I won't bore you all with, but closed the debate by stating, "Barns, like trees and forest of them, do have great value, this is true, but that value comes at a price of skill, risk and labor, that most do not have or would want to take."

I'm sorry to here that this seems to be happening to everyone else as well.  I still cant get over how often people will listen to something they want to hear from an "amateur" or "know it all," and hang on to it over what somebody that does it for a living tells them.

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

bedway

Yep-er, ya got to watch them darn Forest County Pennsyltuckians. There a slick bunch, get ya going or coming. ;D

Jeff

Several years ago I posted a photo of a great big burl on a yellow birch in the U.P..The tree was near dead and next to a powerline along a main road. I had taken Burlkraft by it, because it was so tremendous. The picture I have of it doesn't do it justice.  Anyhow, one day going by, I noticed the tree gone, the stump broke off, and the burl up off the side of the driveway at the same home.  Steve was coming back over that weekend, so I mentioned the burl, so he had I went over there, to see if they were interested in selling it.  We fond the owner home, a school teacher I think he way. Anyhow, Steve offered the guy $500 I think, knowing that it was going to be quite an expense to haul a bit enough trailer over, find some support equipment, and then haul the thing back to Wisconsin, so $500 was a price he could pay.   The guy laughed at us. He said "My Friend on Sugar Island says this Burl is worth $15,000 dollars!"  We talked to him a bit longer, and thanked him for his time, and also gave him the recommendation to seal the burl, and at least cover it, as it was on a cement pad in full sun and was already checking pretty good.

Fast forward almost 5 years. That burl is still laying on that cement pad, and by now, probably totally worthless. The tree was probably 40", so the burl is over 6 feet in diameter, so in order to move it, you have to have some equipment. I wonder if he still thinks his burl is worth a fortune?

This topic has a picture posted of that burl

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,31410.msg453447.html#msg453447

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Peter Drouin

Just say thanks ,but no thanks, and no I dont know some one that can help you, and be on your way
:D :D :D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

thecfarm

Jeff,that is too bad. Now we will never know the treasure inside.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Jay C. White Cloud

Like Grammy would say, "Some folks will cut their own nose off to spite their face." ::)
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Tree Feller

Recently, I helped fall and buck several dead Walnut trees on a friend's farm. He helped me, we used his tractor to pile the logs and when I get back over there with my mill, he will help me saw them into lumber, along with several Red Oaks and Post Oaks. All of the lumber is mine if I want it (duh).

In return, he got my labor for two days and got the trees removed. One of them was a huge, 4-trunk Walnut right on his fence line between a gate and a cattle guard. I was rather proud that I felled it without hitting anything. He will also get some free woodworking (mostly furniture) out of the deal.

It helps that we are life-long friends but I don't know that there is much of a market for dead Walnut trees. The trees would probably have eventually fallen and been burned. I think it was a win-win for us both.



Cody

Logmaster LM-1 Sawmill
Kioti CK 30 w/ FEL
Stihl MS-290 Chainsaw
48" Logrite Cant Hook
Well equipped, serious, woodworking shop

Jay C. White Cloud

TreeFeller, they are getting a great deal by having you.  I almost exclusively do my "Pro Bono," work to friends, non-profits, elderly and churches.  I have given up on most other folks.  They are lucky to have you around.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Ianab

The way you need to look at it is, cost to get the trees down, mess cleaned up, logs hauled home etc VS the value of the logs delivered to your mill.

It may be that you do $2,000 of work and get $500 of logs in return?

Now maybe sometimes you will get to break even, and only need to do $500 of work to get $500 of logs, or maybe even come out ahead, but it's not the usual deal. Especially if it involves logs with metal, power lines, buildings, and "garden" level clean up.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

NWP

Quote from: Jay C. White Cloud on January 06, 2013, 12:25:40 PM


Just this morning, I had a phone call from someone that was very upset by my offer to buy there Barn.  They said, "Are you trying to rip me off, or insult me?  $10,000 is a ridiculous price to offer me for my Barn!  I've been told it's worth five times that amount or more. I'm going to make sure people know what you are trying to do." 




Wow.  I'm assuming these are old barns that you take down and re sell the wood?  My cousin does that here in MO and says it's rare to pay more than $500-1000.  Most people are just glad to get rid of them.
1999 Blockbuster 2222, 1997 Duratech HD10, 2021 Kubota SVL97-2, 2011 Case SV250, 2000 Case 1845C, 2004 Case 621D, John Deere 540A, 2011 Freightliner with Prentice 120C, 2012 Chevrolet, 1997 GMC bucket truck, several trailers, and Stihl saws.

Clean Image

Commercial work for the most part is all I have done for the last 15 years. No need to re-educate the client each time on the need for the 6 different types of insurance we carry because they are the ones requiring it!
If you can find clients with multiple properties you only have to sell yourself once, make them look good by doing them a great job, and hopefully you're in
Probably one of the best advantages is they are spending Other Peoples Money, not reaching into their own wallet to pay for the work.
Of course you're only as good as your last job so always got to be on your toes as there is always someone wanting to take your place  ;)

Duane
   

Brad_bb

I understand the frustration of everyone here dealing with this issue.  I have to wonder though, shouldn't we take a different approach and educate these people we come across?  What I'm thinking is, have a copy of an article ready to hand to the potential customer, which rationally discusses what we've discussed here(in a non-judgemental tone).  I'm sure there have been adequate articles already written on this subject, or you could write your own.  Hand it out before you quote.  Hand it out with your quote.  At least that way they can understand your rationale before inviting suspicion.  The goal is to educate these people in a freindly way.  Make them specifically aware of the labor and costs involved.  Use an example situation to show costs, risks, potential profit and potential loss, and why their standing tree likely has a negative value.  Get an article published in your local paper about this subject.  If you educate one person, when it comes up with their buddy, they may straighten them out with the truth before they come to you, saving you wasted time and frustration.  Instead of people perpetuating "my tree is worth XX", maybe you'll get them to spread "boy there's a lot of labor and cost involved in small tree jobs".  Works the same way with Barns.  Why give them a quote without giving them the rationale for the quote first?  I think you are asking for suspicion and a potential arguement without giving that first.
What do you think?

PS. At a large company I used to work at, they contracted a huge customer service study.  The results showed that people who had an excellent customer service experience told about 6 people on average.  But those who had bad customer service, told 14 people about their experience.  The point is, do your best not to let customers or potential customers walk away with a bad experience with you.  Even if you don't make a customer of them, you can still give them a postive experience with you.  This can lead to other customers.  A negative experience is much worse for you.   Every customer experience is a potential opportunity.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi NWP,

I'm a traditional timber (barn) wright and we do very little salvage work.  We actually work with many folks like your cousin, I may know him, if I don't, I'd like to.  In our process, we photo/video document the frames, map/blue print (and now CAD) the frame, dismantle it while mapping and surveying each joint, restore the frame where there is damage, then, when we have a buyer, reconstruct the frame for reuse, usually for a home.

Your cousin is most correct, most barns are a liability for there owners and not even worth the wood that is in them, unless you have the tools, equipment and skill sets, to gain access.  As I am sure you cousin can contest, many of these folks think they are doing us a favor by trying to sell the barn to use.  I just want to save our heritage if I can, but many of these folks have delusions of grandeur about what they think there barn, (or tree,) is worth. 

Brad,

You are correct, and we have done that and I spend 80 % of my time teaching.  It seems to be most of my job.  It just doesn't work with a percentage of the customer base for some reason. They will still come back at you like mine did this morning.  He new everything we had to do, but still wanted more.  Like some of the layers I work for that need me to do consulting work, (I charge 61.50/hour-500/day-2100/wk as of 2013 for most open jobs,) and many have a fit. It's o.k for them to charge $250.00 / man hour but God forbid I do that.  It just seems to be some folks hold themselves and what they have, in higher regard than what I do and have.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

thecfarm

Them are the same people that come to our veggie stand and want something cheaper because they are buying a dozen. Our prices are low to begin with. I send them to another stand about 15 minutes away if they don't believe me. Than they come back 2-3 times and they get talking about something they was selling and the buying tried to beat them down in price.  ::) I just smile, but boy I want to say I know what you mean,it happens here all the time. But saying that some will give me a tip because they appreciate what I am doing. I like to see them come back,not just because of the extra money,but they understand what this post is about.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Jay C. White Cloud

A'men Brother,  I am not to far off, (I hope,) from work'n just for the folks that appreciate my craft.  I have really enjoyed being able to say no to some folks when they have come back to hire me.  They don't deserve the work we do.  If I eat, where, use or live in a man or woman's labor, I always try to appreciate it deeply.  I'm with you, the extra money is nice, but the appreciation and respect is priceless.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

rooster 58

     Yo bedway, that's funny! By the way, this guy that wants somethin for nuthin is from Erie :D Seems like us Forestcountians better take lessons from y'all :laugh:

rooster 58

Well, I returned from looking at the trees a bit ago. They are nearly all dead standing, several widowmakers in the bunch. Most are only firewood size and nothing valuable as sawtimber.  I think I'll just tell him thanks but no thanks. Too many need cabled, including 3 or 4 hanging out over his cabin. I get all the firewood I want just for what it costs me to haul. Maybe bedway will come over and help his Erie neighbor. I'll come watch and maybe have a cold one withya ;)

Cedarman

A person that enters a negotiation without a clue as to the value of what is being negotiated is at a huge disadvantage. (Reason why timber owners should hire a consultant on their behalf)  The people with the dead trees over the cabin do not know because it is totally out of their area of expertise. You on the other hand know very well what the value is, either positive or negative.
As has been said, educating people is good, but would you want a used car salesman educating you while the negotiating is going on?  This causes the frustration in the person with the dead trees.  For that person to be satisfied that they are being treated fairly, there must be an honest 3'd party doing the educating. 
This is the problem in these types of situations.
One way that I have used,  is to explain that my offer is on the table. You are free to accept or reject.  If you are uncomfortable with my offer, take the time to research so that you feel that in the end you are make a good decision.  Put the monkey on their back.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

SwampDonkey

Jeff, I thought your burl was on a maple? You probably never walked that lot not far from the cabin that you said had some old hardwood trees on it. I think it was near some land for sale. Might be an old smasher in there.

Here's one on a yellow birch. The guy has it on a  produce pallet. I think he turns burls, quite a few fellas do around here.



It's a sure bet it was off a crown land harvest.

You can see that his lumber just sits around in the weather to degrade. I see him mostly cutting white cedar. Plus he probably burns the slabs, it's all stacked up there.

Reminds me, I knew of one other about this size. It was on crown land behind a camp lease. Used to hunt there and walk a grown in road, and off to the right was a big old burly yellow birch. I knew the guys that owned the camp. One fellow had a friend that was in pursuit of burls and figured woods. It just so happens the block by the camp was up for some kind of single tree selection. One of the old guys, his nephew was one of the company  foresters (actually forest engineer), and I believe he had the harvester guys bring it out for his uncle. He wanted it for this friend, whom I also had met. By the way, that ridge (Robinson Ridge) was full of birdseye maple. The maple around the camp had eye on anything that was at least 14 inches and up. You could go from tree to tree. There are places like that around, I've seen probably 4 other sites. Now not all the trees would make logs, some were like culverts and not all was figured enough for the grade. Sometimes it's just on one or two faces of the trunk and also some eye trees when cut don't have eye going in deep enough toward the centre.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

rooster 58

    Well said Cedarman, and rest assured I will attempt to explain to him what is all involved in removing his trees. However, after dealing with these situations over time, this gentleman I don't think will understand.
     Another problem is that there are people who will do this type of work for well under what is a fair price to do the work. Guys do it in their spare time and also anyone with a chainsaw and a truck is in business. These are the guys that tarnish the business by misleading customers and liable themselves and their clients by not having the right gear, tools, etc. And they operate without insurance, putting everyone at great risk

Peter Drouin

Some times I think I spend to much time explaining how the job will work :D
I do go and look at all the jobs first on my own time, that way when I get there with the mill I can make money :D
I give them the price and what I will do and will not do.
And they will some time try to get me down on the price, well the price is the price. thats it :D
But I allways stay positive with the customer, they want me or not its there decision, most of the time they do.
the customers that dont want me because im more money :D :D
But then they call me back , because the outher guy is not there yet or the wood is so bad they cant use it :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
I have customers that give me bottles of wine, all kinds of things,
I had one guy come to my house and gave me a cake, his wife was so happy of the job I did, I did not know what to say but thanks
We all do the best  we can do
when it comes to the price stand your ground
I look at this way ,they want the best work well that cost :D ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Jeff

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 06, 2013, 06:08:49 PM
Jeff, I thought your burl was on a maple?
(Its not my burl) ;)
So did we, turned out it was an old old yellow birch that looked like a maple.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

SwampDonkey

Ah yes, not yours. But your photo. ;D  Well looking at that old burl I posted there's no yellow bark on it neither. Most huge burls I've ever seen was on yellow birch.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Brad_bb

That's the right idea fellas, stay positive, give them some information, warn then to be careful of shady operators who could damage the cabin and have no insurance...  Even if they don't hire you, try to get them to respect you and understand that you are honest and legit.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Peter Drouin

Ya but some people just want cheap, they understand the job but just play dumb :D  there looking for cheap,
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

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