Need ya'll for an explanation......Thanks.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I have always used Polyurethane. I have never used Lacquer and know nothing about it.
What's the difference?
When do you use it vs. Poly?

Thanks, Guys 

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi David,

I have been spend'n most of my time on the Timber Framing and Log construction section, but was told to read and respond to stuff here too.  I'm sure what I'm about to share maybe counter to other's views, but here goes any ways.

I seldom to never use "Polymere," based products on wood.  If I am to finish something, in most cases it is with a natural oil.  Lacquer work is an art form all in its self.  It is what "Poly," tries to copy. When my mother was still alive, I helped her, but it is a more refined craft than I normally work in.  Oil finishes have always served me well, so I haven't moved past that type of finish.

If I was going to do something that required that kind of finish, I would use a traditional lacquer, never poly.  So I'm not sure if I helped or confused things, so I'll wait to see what other say, before going further.

Regards,

Jay 

[WDH]

I personally have never used lacquer.  It does make a nice finish.  I like varnish because it is durable and stands up to wear and tear.  I do not think that lacquer has the "hold-up" strength of varnish.  Poly is a type of varnish.  I have used alykd varnish and poly varnish.  Both have worked well.  I love oil, especially an oil and varnish mixture (commonly called "Danish Oil").  However, it does not hold up well to water abuse, as in a wet glass of liquid.  With varnish, you can wipe the moisture off.  With oil, you are left with a water ring.  Not sure how lacquer holds up to water abuse.

So, I guess it all depends on what you will be using the project for.  I have a large built in bookcase that sees no water abuse, and it was finished with Danish oil.  It is beautiful.  For most of my tables or chests I use varnish for the added protection.  That said, as related to the original question, I do not have any personal experience with lacquer.  Maybe a lacquer person will speak up.

[Dodgy Loner]

How about a crash course in film finishes? Finishing really is one of the "black arts" in woodworking, and it took me years to understand what I was doing. I'm still learning, quite honestly.

There are 3 major groups of film finishes: shellac, lacquer, and varnish. All have different properties that are very important to consider when choosing a finish.

Shellac is the excretion of an insect that lives in Southeast Asia, if I recall correctly. The raw shellac is purified and dissolved in alcohol. It can be dark reddish to a very light blonde color. If you get it at your local hardware store, you have two choices: orange (which they call "amber") and blonde (which they call "clear"). Because the thinner is alcohol, shellac dries very quickly. You can put another coat on in 20 minutes in warm weather. It is great for building multiple layers, because it builds so quickly, and each coat dissolves into the last coat to get a seamless, deep finish. Its downside is that it is not as protective as lacquer or varnish. If you spill liquor on a table finished only in shellac, it's a problem. It's also less impervious to water than lacquer or varnish (but more so than non-film finishes, say, oil). Almost every piece or furniture I build gets several coats of shellac, but I rarely use it as the topcoat unless the piece will see very light wear. It is only available in one sheen: glossy.

Lacquer comes from many difference sources. Nitrocellulose lacquer is the most well-known, but there are many other types. The solvent for lacquer is lacquer thinner (of course). This is not a single chemical, but a combination of dozens of chemicals that evaporate at different rates. They all evaporate rather quickly, though, so like shellac, lacquer can be recoated in about 20 minutes in good weather. The coats also dissolve into one another, so you tend to get a very deep, even build. One downside to lacquer is that the solvents are more toxic than ethanol. You want to be in a well-ventilated area when you use lacquer. It it a good bit more durable than shellac, however. Not quite as durable as most varnishes, though. It is the most preferred finish of the majority of professional cabinet shops for its ease of use and its excellent appearance. It typically has very little color, though, so if you want to warm up the wood (like I do with cherry and walnut), then you may want to use oil or shellac underneath. If you want a clear finish, however, straight lacquer is a good choice.

Finally, the most complex category of all: varnish. I will not get into the complicated mess of water-based varnishes here, so everything I'm writing about under this heading refers to oil-based varnishes. Polyurethane falls into this category. Varnish is nothing more than an oil (like tung oil) cooked with a resin (like amber - ie, fossilized tree sap). Polyurethane and other modern varnishes are made using a synthetic, rather than a natural, resin. The biggest advantage of varnishes is their durability. They polymerize as they dry, meaning relatively short molecules hook up to form long molecules, which create a strong barrier against water and abrasion. This benefit also leads to their biggest drawbacks. Because varnish hardens by polymerization rather than evaporation (as shellac and lacquer do), it takes much, much longer to cure. Most varnishes recommend waiting at least 24 hours between coats. You can shorten this a bit if you don't need to sand the finish, but if you try to sand a varnish finish that isn't yet cured, you'll end up with a gummy mess. Also, because the finish takes so long to harden, you're most likely to get defects, like dust and insects, stuck in your finish. So you're more likely to have to sand between coats. A cruel Catch-22. Also, because each coat polymerizes into a single, solid, un-dissolvable layer, the coats to not blend into each other the way they do with shellac and lacquer. If you have several coats of varnish on and you sand through on layer and into the next, this will be readily apparent as a hazy line where one coat ends and the next begins. Oh, I almost forgot to mention - the thinner for oil-based varnish is mineral spirits.

Hopefully that clears up any confusion you had. See? It's simple! ;D

OK, let's cut through the mess. I start pretty much every project with a coat of oil. Usually boiled linseed oil. I like the color it gives the wood, but it offers basically no protection. After that dries for a couple of days, I add multiple coats of shellac. I use Zinsser "clear" in a spray can. Shellac builds quickly and adds depth to the finish. I sand as necessary between coats. Always after the first coat, then maybe once more if needed. I don't like the shininess of shellac, and it is not terribly protective, so I finish off the finish with about three coats of satin lacquer. Also out of a spray can. This procedure works well on most furniture. Remember that multiple, thin coats are better than one thick coat. Also, shellac tends to run when you spray it on too thick. Lacquer is much more forgiving. I don't have much use for varnish unless I'm finishing a floor.

[Dodgy Loner]

Let me also add, just to be clear, that I have nothing against varnish as a finish as far as its appearance goes. All of my issues are with its user-friendliness compared to other finishes. I have never been happy the furniture that I finished with polyurethane, but that is my own fault. WDH uses it on almost everything and he does a fantastic job. I have simply quit trying.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Well now....I have learned a lot so far. I have really never used anything except Poly. But I keep reading on the Forum where woodworkers use oils, lacquer etc. on different projects.
Ya'll all know I love ugly wood and enjoy building benches.

Sometimes I only get 1 perfect ugly slab from an old log. So with that being said, I only get 1 chance to put a finish on it unless I use my LT 40 as an eraser.  :D I have done this before.

I have read on the cans of different finishes that say....do not apply over "so and so". This is why I was asking about Lacquer. I do not want to ruin a nice, ugly slab by putting something on it I know nothing about.

Thanks.

[WDH]

I think that the woodworking is only half the battle.  The other half the battle (maybe 2/3rds the battle) is the finish.  Many a bad finish has made a great project mediocre.  There is a lot more that I need to learn.  I am interested in using some lacquer on a future project.

Dodgy, that white oak bed that you finished with lacquer is beautiful.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I think that the woodworking is only half the battle.  The other half the battle (maybe 2/3rds the battle) is the finish.  Many a bad finish has made a great project mediocre.  There is a lot more that I need to learn.  I am interested in using some lacquer on a future project.

Dodgy, that white oak bed that you finished with lacquer is beautiful.

I agree Danny about the finish. 1 bad finish = expensive firewood.  >:(

[clww]

David-Go To Bed!

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

David-Go To Bed!

That's FUNNY you said that.....WDH was just inquiring about my late hours. "FULL MOON".  :D

[Dodgy Loner]

Dodgy, that white oak bed that you finished with lacquer is beautiful.

Thanks, that was the first time I used lacquer and I was very impressed with the ease with which I could get a smooth, even coat with it. It is a very easy finish to apply. I have used it on every piece of furniture I have built since then (which admittedly, hasn't been many). Since it is less protective than varnish, I try to make up for it with multiple layers. I usually end up with about 3-5 layers of shellac and an equal amount of lacquer on my furniture. And it only takes two days. That's the best part! I barely had the patience to do 3 layers of finish when I was using poly. Give the lacquer a try and let me know what you think - I suspect you'll like it

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Good information Dodgy......Thanks.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

I have used a blended product on wood for over 20 years, (some of you may know it as LandArk,) it is made of beeswax, tung oil, linseed oil, citrus oil and pine rosin.  I find it very durable, for an all natural finish, and the feed back has been great over the years.  We use it on timber frames, kitchen tables, floors, just about everything from wood, to leather stone and clay, even treating siding on barns. 

My issue with modern finishes are how tricky they can be to facilitate, and if you want to refinish something, depending on the system of  finish that was originally used, you are going to be in for some tough, nasty work.  From a stand point of durability in a finish, I think, again the original natural finishes that have come out of Asia still hold the records.

My mother did both "french polish," and several forms of Asian style "lacquer," finishes.  These, with out question, are the most durable finishes in the world.  They have been around for over 7000 years and there have been cases of ship wrecks, discover in the Sea of Japan that are over 700 years old.  In the wreckage the found both baskets, leather, and wood lacquer ware.  In one case the material the lacquer had been applied to, (it was either a wood or leather serving tray,) the only thing left was the lacquer shell, for the material inside was gone.  Now that is durability.  I've seen, in museum collections, pieces that are thousand of years old. Some in use for hundreds of years, and they looked like they had been made yesterday. I don't think any of our modern finishes are even in the parking lot of where these original natural finishes play ball.

Regards,

jay

[Dodgy Loner]

Jay, the Asian lacquer to which you refer is derived from the toxic sap of the lacquer tree (Toxicodendron verniciflua), the sylvan cousin of our familiar poison-ivy (Toxicodendron radicans). The sap, as you might expect, is highly irritating until it polymerizes, at which point the urushiol is basically inert and reactions are rare. It is a completely different animal than the "lacquer" that we use as a clear finish today. It dries to an opaque brown unless pigment is added. It does make a great wood finish, but we would use paint to achieve the same effect today. And we wouldn't have to take precautions against rashes and inflammation when using it.

Regarding all-natural finishes, shellac is about as natural as it gets (especially if you use Everclear rather than denatured alcohol to thin it). Some varnishes can be considered-natural, too. Actually, the ingredient list for that finish makes it sound as though it is, in fact, a varnish. It would be odd for pine rosin be added to oil unless the finish is cooked, which would indeed make the finish a "varnish". Rosin will not dissolve in oil without cooking. The citrus oil in the finish is probably used as a thinner. It is technically not an oil but a terpene, more precisely known as "D-limonene". D-limonene can be used as a 1:1 substitute for mineral spirits as a thinner for varnish. Looking at that ingredient list, I would bet dollars to donuts that what you are using is, in fact, a varnish.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Dodgy,

Not all the Asian lacquers are derive from genus Toicodendron, many are, but not all.  Some are made or blended with genus Melanorrhoea which is completely none toxic. The sap is not highly irritating to everyone, not every one reacts to Toicodendron toxins, just like mother and I, (we don't react to poison ivy,)  which from what I gather, some of the craftsman seem to be resistant or not effected as well.  This was my mother's world, when she was alive, and I never learned as much as I would have liked.  It can be brown, or red in tint, or through some alchemy beyond my understanding it can be virtually clear.  I have seen my mother, as well as Korean, artisans achieve such finishes.  Museums have many examples.  I know for a fact that the solvents in most modern lacquers are extremely toxic, to a point that many people develop life threatening respiratory complications, and become hyper sensitive to many of VOCs because of there day to day exposure to man made finishes.  I've never heard of that happening to folks that work only in natural finishes.

Land Ark is a proprietary blend, Mike, the originator doesn't share the formula with very many folks.  You can dissolve pine rosin without heat, (I don't understand the chemistry, my friend Paul is a bio chemist and he tried to explain it to me but I got lost pretty quick in the discussion. ???) but I have never pushed Mike for his mixing methodologies, I just know how great his product is. I suppose you could call it a varnish, but because it is more oil and wax, than rosin, I guess Mike thought calling it an oil was more fitting.  Mike is quick to point out that it is a food grade product and has been approved for food prep surfaces, the last time I checked.  Natural for me doesn't mean nontoxic, just no man made additives.

Broad Culture Distribution, Korean lacquer artists:

All natural lacquer, when correctly applied, does not degrade. It is naturally resistant to heat, alkali, acid, salinity, insects, alcohol, bacteria as well as being waterproof and antiseptic. It has been a healthy part of kitchens and homes in Asia for millennium. Although the lacquer tree is related to plants like poison ivy, poison oak and poison sumac, the entire tree can be used for medicinal purposes.

The seeds are used in a tea that is good for colds. The leaves are used for a tea and also fed to cows to increase their health. The core of the trunk has five healthy minerals. Pharmaceutical companies are even using lacquer for treatments designed to help patients with cancer and diabetes.

Regards,

Jay

[wheelinguy]

I used to work for a high end furniture manufacturer, incredible stuff 75' boardroom tables, shipping all over the world, exotic woods you could barley pronounce the names of, etc...  The only thing that we ever put on any of the tables or cabinets or whatever they were building was lacquer, sometimes over a color base sometimes natural.  I was the one that sprayed most of the topcoats, lacquer sprays really nice once you get the mixture right for your application, we always cut it with thinner and sprayed using HVLP guns.  It flows out so nice and leaves a very smooth finish, but having said that it can be very fussy if you get any contamination, don't ever try to put it over another finish it will just crack and peel and pretty much ruin the piece.  A light sanding between coats, wipe down with a tack cloth and spray again.  In the end if you have any little high spots you can cut those off with a razor blade and the blemish is virtually unseen.  Don't know if I made it better or worse, but that's what I got for ya.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Ya'll have given some very interesting information I did not know. I think we have have all had a problem or 2 with finishes.....at least I have.
Most of my problems have come from temperature. I have started keeping my finishes, which I buy by the gallon, inside the house. My shop gets cold inside in the winter and I only warm it up when I go to the shop to work.
Now I'm starting to question if my wood needs to be warm also. My Poly, I keep in the house stays 70° but my wood is cold.
I'm thinking about just keeping the shop warm over night before I put a finish on any wood. It seems I was getting a better finish in the summer months.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Wow, a wealth of information here.
Varnish type finishes were always my Achilles heel  when it came to woodworking projects.
In that I have a 5 hp compressor, I  bought an HVLP gun and took lessons from a cabinet maker friend of mine in spraying lacquer when I was re-doing cabinet doors for my daughter (another story).
Took some practice spraying pieces of cardboard but I got the hang of it fairly quickly.
His method uses a coat of vinyl sealer and 2 coats of lacquer. Works well.
I also have used a danish oil type finish named Tried and True with good results.
Pete

[Dodgy Loner]

Jay, I will certainly defer to your experience in all matters of natural lacquer work. I know that I am very sensitive to urushiol, and while it's an interesting craft, it's not one that I will take up! I'm also aware that many "traditional" lacquerware artisans died of or at least suffered from the effects of mercury poisoning, since mercuric sulfide - ie, cinnabar (a natural red pigment) - was one of the more popular colorants for lacquerware.

Land Ark is a proprietary blend, Mike, the originator doesn't share the formula with very many folks....I suppose you could call it a varnish, but because it is more oil and wax, than rosin, I guess Mike thought calling it an oil was more fitting. 

There are many varnishes that are sold as "oils". Danish oil and anything labeled as "tung oil finish" are among them. If you want real tung oil, you have to make sure to buy something labeled "pure tung oil". The common factor of most of these varnishes is that they are wiping varnishes - that is, varnishes that are thinned down with solvent and are meant to be wiped on, rather than brushed on (much like oil).

I used to work for a high end furniture manufacturer, incredible stuff 75' boardroom tables, shipping all over the world, exotic woods you could barley pronounce the names of, etc...  The only thing that we ever put on any of the tables or cabinets or whatever they were building was lacquer...don't ever try to put it over another finish it will just crack and peel and pretty much ruin the piece.

My understanding is that lacquer is compatible with most other film finishes as long as the finish is fully cured. However, I do not ever apply lacquer over oil, as I have read this will can cause problems because oils take a very long time to cure. I use shellac as a barrier between the oil and the lacquer and this has served me very well so far.

Ya'll have given some very interesting information I did not know. I think we have have all had a problem or 2 with finishes.....at least I have.
Most of my problems have come from temperature. I have started keeping my finishes, which I buy by the gallon, inside the house. My shop gets cold inside in the winter and I only warm it up when I go to the shop to work.
Now I'm starting to question if my wood needs to be warm also. My Poly, I keep in the house stays 70° but my wood is cold.
I'm thinking about just keeping the shop warm over night before I put a finish on any wood. It seems I was getting a better finish in the summer months.

You're probably onto something, POSTON. Polyurethane will level better on warm wood, and it will also cure more quickly, which leaves less opportunity for defects to occur. You really need warm temps to apply poly.

[Larry]

This guy explains lacquer better than I can.

Wood Whisperer about lacquer  BTW I'm not the Larry he was addressing.

My first project with a lacquer finish was 50 years ago in high school shop class.  All we had was nitrocellulose at the time.  That little desk is still around with the original finish.

Last project was all the cabinets/trim in our new house.  Sprayed two coats of Sherwin Williams CAB-Acrylic Dull Rubbed Effect over vinyl sealer.  More than 20 gallons.  Crystal clear and reported to never yellow.  I'll let you know in 50 years if it is a accurate claim.  I can't even imagine the amount of time it would have taken using poly.

Finishing is a lot like golf...you have a full bag of clubs and there is only one suitable for the next shot.  You should have a full bag of finishes.

I might stick with poly for slab benches.  Could be a bit tougher/rain resistant than lacquers.

A good place to find high performance lacquers is at Sherwin Williams.  It's only available in gallons and you will need a gallon of vinyl sealer also.  And lacquer thinner.  $80 and up just to get started.

Don't forget your respirator.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Good info Larry.....I play golf so I can relate to a shop full of finishes.
Thanks!

[hackberry jake]

My finishing evolution went from stain, to stain then poly, to stain and poly in one(not recommended), to just poly, to tung oil. I have also used some sparurethane. Sparurethane and poly are my favorite finishs. My dad makes fun of my work. He said I should call my shop "Heck for stout construction". My brother and I refinished one of his tables with spray lacquer. There are white rings all over it now. I think I'll stick to varnishes.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

My brother and I refinished one of his tables with spray lacquer. There are white rings all over it now. I think I'll stick to varnishes.

:D That's funny Jake.....but we learn from others.

[LeeB]

Dodgy,
Denatured alcohol is everclear with an additive to make it unfit for drinking.

Jake,
Sparurethane is a polyurethane that is formulated for outside use and has UV blockers added. It is a little softer and has a bit more give than poly, therefor will scratch and dent a little easier.

Poston,
I would recomend using spar urethane for your outdoor benches.

[Dodgy Loner]

Dodgy,
Denatured alcohol is everclear with an additive to make it unfit for drinking.

Yes, denatured alcohol is chemically distilled ethanol, so it's about 99% pure, as opposed to conventionally distilled ethanol (like Everclear), which cannot be purified beyond 96%. If I remember correcctly, denatured alcohol usually has either benzene added at 1% or methanol at 5% to make it non-drinkable.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Have you guys been watching "MOONSHINERS" ?  :D

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Poston,
I would recomend using spar urethane for your outdoor benches.

Thanks Lee. Best answer yet.  :D :D :D I have plenty of it.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

If a finish is a natural one, I can speak with some confidence but I think most of you know a heck of a lot more than me about modern finishes.  I just have never had that good of luck with them, especially for out side applications.  I still would just use my oil mix, and reapply every few years.

With that said, talking to a buddy of mine at "Traditional Boat Works," he mention the top notch modern products in the Maritime trade that may be of interest.  I just started looking today, and boy, there is a lot to consider.

Regards,

Jay

[Tree Feller]

David,

The best advice regarding finishing that I can give you is to get a copy of Bob Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing." It will tell you everything you want to know and more and tell it in a way that anyone can understand...i.e., you don't have to be a chemist to get it.

Lacquer is the cadillac of finishes. It dries quickly, can be tinted, has 100% burn-in (you don't have to sand between coats) and comes in gloss, satin and semi-gloss. Pre-catalyzed, nitrocellulose lacquer is the most common and you really need a spray gun to apply it. There are brushing lacquers available but they take a long time to cure and the odor is horrific.

Polyurethane is a tougher finish than lacquer. It withstands wear, heat and moisture better. It can be brushed or sprayed but dry time is 24 hours per coat and it needs scuff-sanding between coats. Since dry time is so long, it's more susceptable to dust nibs and insects marring it while drying. You almost need a dedicated finish room to spray on poly.

[hackberry jake]

I have used poly or spar on all the projects I have made in the last couple years. Poly for high wear interior, spar for exterior high uv exposure. I used tung oil on an interior sign and really liked it, but I knew it wouldn't be touched and it wouldn't have car keys thrown on it etc. The biggest tips I have learned about applying urethanes are:
1. The first coat is the easiest to see where you have been.
2. The next coats need good overhead lighting to see where you've been.
3. Paint thinner or mineral spirits can thin urethane.
4. The coats should get progressively thinner.
5. The last thinnest coat is the most important.
6. The surface should be as flat as possible.
7. I use 200 grit between the first couple coats and steel wool after that.

The last coat is the only one you have to worry about dust and you should have it thinned enough and apply it thin enough so that it dries relatively quickly. I have had many complements on my finishes and I know they will stand the test of time. I have been wanting to try out some BLO on one of my next low wear projects.

[Trahlin]

I dread the last two stages of a furniture/cabinet project, sanding and finishing.  Random orbit sander or card scraper have made the sanding part a lot easier to handle. 

I read an article (can't qoute the source) about using HVLP sprayer and DEFT brushing lacquer.  I cut the DEFT from 30% to 50% depending on the temperature.  First coat is usually cut thin.  I let this coat dry thoroughly, and do a wet scuff sanding with 400 grit emery cloth and mineral spirits (mineral spirits has no thinning effect on DEFT.  Don't use water, you might accidently sand through the finish and it will raise the grain).  Rub it lightly with plenty of mineral spirits for lubricant.  On flat surfaces I use a flat piece of scrap wood as a backer for the emery paper.  Works well to get an even finish with later coats.  This doesn't take long, and is not the drudgery that you might imagine.  Wipe off the mineral spirits with a clean absorbent cloth.  Let the project sit a few minutes to allow the mineral spirits to evaporate off.  Your next coat will be smooth as silk. 

I am lazy when it comes to finishing.  I would rather be machining the pieces and putting them together, and have no qualms about telling people this.  This quick method works for me, most importantly for my bride.  I have used it for several years.  Last year I built kitchen cabinets using this method of finish.  If the finish get to looking a bit rough, like above the coffee maker, I just take some of the thinned spray solution and brush on a new coat.  Burns right in and looks new again.

Probably not much value, but it saves me time, and earns a few "Atta Boy" points from my beautiful wife.

[ely]

is DEFT and varnish such as the cabot brand varish two separate animals?

and what product is used to thin DEFT brand wood finish? am i correct that mineral spirits are used for thinning varnish.? i have an hvlp gun that i intend to use for applying the varnish and the deftCWF to walls and ceilings with, and i need to know how to thin it properly... the two brands of finish will be used seperatly in different rooms of the house.

[Trahlin]

DEFT brushing lacquer.  It is thinned with lacquer thinner.