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The Good and Bad of Ties

Started by Ohio_Bill, December 23, 2012, 08:49:03 PM

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Ohio_Bill

The Good

A market that never seems to dry up.
Great over scale if logs are 11, 12 or 13 inch diameter.
$$$ Up to 500 per K
Minimal sawing for amount of bf produced.
A way to add value to low grade logs.


The Bad

They are heavy 265 lbs for a 7 by 9
Most loggers don't have a clue what it takes to make a tie log.
You can go broke quick if you buy logs that won't make ties.
The heart of a grade 8 ft log won't work unless over 8 foot 6 inches long.



Over the past 14 years Ties have been a big source of my income. I have done several timber improvement cuts, which has produced a lot of low grade logs. Because I am the logger I buck with ties in mind.
The market has always been there and no problem with slow cash flow.
This year I have cut quite a bit of nice hardwood timber and found out early on the grade logs would bring more than the lumber I could produce so they get sold to the Big Boys. I save the low grade and buck them into tie lengths . This has allowed me to add value to the low grade tops.

I have supplied most all of the tie logs that I saw. The few loads that I have bought have not been a good experience.

I started cutting ties on LT15 and had two strong nephews for help. My nephews have since grown up so I now have a LT40SH helping with the lifting.


I was wondering if anyone else is using ties as an income stream and how you are dealing with log supply.


Bill

Bill
USAF Veteran  C141 Loadmaster
LT 40 HDD42-RA   , Allis Chalmers I 500 Forklift , Allis Chalmers 840 Loader , International 4300 , Zetor 6245 Tractor – Loader ,Bob Cat 763 , Riehl Steel Edger

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Hey Bill, I do not saw ties but I gotta tell ya, I have learned a lot from your post.
Thanks and we appreciate the great pics.  :christmas:
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Okrafarmer

To the list of "bad" I would mention that they don't pay squat for ties around here. Maybe $20 apiece, which is pittance compared to lumber.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

paul case

Okra,
It may not seem like much for ties. Ours are at $22 each and that figures about $.48 bdft. That is pretty good compared to the low quality lumber that comes from the heart of the log. Ties are a good way( the highest paying right now) to sell the heartwood of hardwood logs.

Ohio bill,
I saw some ties now and then too. Big rough logs that are hard on the ends make good ties and  I can sort some of those out of the 10' logs I get and cut them off after sawing them. I have been doing some of my own logging along and when I do I can target cut for 8'8'' ties. The outside lumber I seem to only be able to sell as pallet lumber right now. If a grade market came around I could peddle quite a lot of jacket boards to it, but for now it is sized to make 4x cants for the resaw.
I have to deliver them to a mill 15 miles away that cuts a TT load and the buyer buys them there and pays me by a check in the mail. 20 to a bundle. I have a hand winch that has a pulley up high in the ceiling of the sawshed to drag and stack those ties. My old mill dont have those nice rollers on the toeboards.
PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

circlesawn

I live in the NW, is there any market for doug fir ties?  Are there different grades of ties or do they have some minimum spec that has to be met?  Thanks.

Okrafarmer

My best live edge lumber comes out of the middle of knotty logs. I ask $1-3 / bf for most of my green lumber, depending on species. Walnut is $3.50 and up. I've sold mostly maple and cedar in the last week. KD cedar I sold for $3/ bf. The maple was $1.75 / bf for silver maple thick slabs,, $2.50 for a  red maple live edge slab taken from the heart of a crotch log. (Couldn't have made a tie out of that one anyway). The silver maple log was cut just too short to make a tie, but if it had been a little longer, it would have made a good tie-- but I prefer to sell it as mantels, benches, and table tops. Another name for a tie is a rustic mantel.  ;D The log was about 18" diameter. I sold less than half of the lumber from that log in one sale for $120. The log had been sitting around for about six months. I still have the rest of it to sell, including the center slab. This log was fairly clear wood, though, very boring grain. Silver maples are like that.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

hackberry jake

I have sold a few ties, I don't have my operation set-up so deal with the weight of ties. Just got a bunch of roller tables though, the jr will be modified if I ever get the time.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Ron Wenrich

I sawed a lot more than you do on a band mill.  Usually we saw at least 1 load a week, if we're in those types of species.  We saw a lot of different lengths, so not all logs are suited for ties.  Any log that is 8' and tie species is cut to tie length.  It does give waste to your other blocking and boards, but the extra can be helpful in board trimming, or used to make a better grade board.

One thing I look at is the alternate return that you get from sawing a tie into lumber.  I saw all my stock down to blocking, usually a 3½x6.  A tie price would be about $22 FOB mill.  Blocking is $420/Mbf delivered.  Its easy to lose $10/Mbf in delivery costs.  That pallet cant will fetch $5.88.  That leaves $16.12 to get to breakeven in the remaining lumber.

Due to the over thickness and saw kerf, you'll end up only getting about 17 bf from the lumber.  That ends up being about an average of $950/Mbf lumber from those boards.  In today's markets, its pretty hard to average that in a tie quality log.  One board that is 2 Com will make your decision to pull boards from a tie a costly one. 

The other factor to consider is that your sawing costs go down when sawing ties.  You get better volume in a less amount of time, and that reduces costs.  The lower sawing costs should also be considered when looking at the alternate return.

You can talk about all those high prices in niche markets.  The problem is the market isn't big enough to handle all the logs into niche material.  If you did, the laws of supply and demand bites you, and prices would drop as the market dries up.  Reality is that you need other types of markets if you plan to do any type of volume. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Bibbyman

Our two major problems with sawing ties are ;

1) Getting in logs bucked up right to make ties.  Our logger concentrates on veneer and stave logs. The rest are bucked up into "junk" and brought to us. They don't even make an effort to measure the length when bucking them.

2) End trimming to length adds a lot of time and struggle. We'll saw out a bunch and then some time later I'll come back and trim to length with a chainsaw.

If we cut ties for a living, we'd have to have a crosscut saw in line with the mill. And a logger that would make an effort to make tie logs.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Ron Wenrich

Are you double end trimming your ties?  That's not necessary with out buyer.  They do that at their yard.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

stavebuyer

Ties are one of the best wholesale markets for the small mill for several reasons. First as Ron noted when you figure the residual value of the cant; its hard to make the lumber average better any other way. Second if you ever sell wholesale grade lumber it simplifies the number of sorts as you only have one length. Most grade lumber markets want at a minimium a 5 length separation and some will want both a grade and length separation. On the downside it does take a better log than most loggers seem to think. When cutting my own timber I averaged 95%+ good ties; buying logs delivered that number drops off by 5-15%.

While splits will hurt a tie, stain does not. Gives the small guy time to put a load together without worrying about lumber stain. The downside for the small producer who is selling side lumber is that you have to saw a lot of logs to get a truckload of lumber when most of the footage remains in the tie. I trade a lot of white oak logs. The money spent buying one load of stave logs will buy 3 or 4 loads of tie logs so a 30 day supply of tie logs requires a lot less money than a 30 day supply of grade logs.

Another good thing about ties is most everything is an "upgrade" ie the log is generally purchased at a lower price per mbf than the finished tie brings. Grade logs will generally have a cant and a portion of the lumber near the heart that brings less per mbf than is paid for the log. Very many downgrades will put you in the hole as your unlikely to get the premiums paid to a larger grade mill for the upper grades sorted by length, grade, and color.

Side lumber can be an issue for the small mill. I am fortunate to have market that buys both my ties and side lumber at market price. For those that don't; when you figure the percentage of "uppers" actually in tie siding by the time you figure grading and separating you can sell the lumber all to a flooring market and still do just fine.

The best way to "loose" cutting ties is trying cut a tie out of log that won't make one.

:christmas:

bandmiller2

I think its important for small milling operations to stay flexable,ties can be a good fallback if you have nothing better.Remember most "specialist" critters go extinct. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

dgdrls

In response to Circlesawns Question.

http://www.rta.org/faqs-main

I think a small shop would be hard pressed to
manage (manhandle) the darn things.
Material handling equipment is a must,

DGDrls

WH_Conley

Ties have put beans on my table many times.
Bill

Okrafarmer

Quote from: bandmiller2 on December 24, 2012, 07:29:47 AM
I think its important for small milling operations to stay flexable,ties can be a good fallback if you have nothing better.Remember most "specialist" critters go extinct. Frank C.

Generally for me if a cant is bad enough to only be worth a tie, it's not good enough to be a tie anyway. I haven't been buying many logs, but when I do, .30-.35 / bf is all I would have to pay for oak. But I can't go through material fast enough to make money on .48 / bf products. .18 / bf is a very slim margin unless you are able to produce thousands and thousands of bf of it in day. I have been looking into sawing ties, but so far, it looks like a last ditch attempt at cutting losses. With sweetgum I may be able to make it work, since it is available for .20 / bf or less, and it is easy on the saw blade. But the outer jackets of the sweet gum is less profitable for me than oak is. Also, the more profitable sweetgum grade lumber is from near the pith, since that is the more beautiful stuff.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

drobertson

Howdy Ohio Bill,  I cut ties too, 6X8's and 7X9's,  12 bucks and 22 bucks  for them. the one inch goes to local flooring mills,  It is a very competitive market buying logs, the bigger mills have all but locked up most of the loggers, and the big ones have bought up most of the timber tracts as well.  Thankfully there is always a need for custom work.  :christmas:
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

paul case

Hey Okrafarmer,
I am not trying to persuade you to cut ties, but there is more to it than meets the eye.
First the scale overrun on logs that are tie size is between 40% and 60%. So you get more than what you pay for. The mills around me only pay $.30 bdft doyle scale on tie logs. The logs I have been buying have some tie logs in them and I am only paying $.25  for them. Even if you pay $.30 for a log that scales 75  with a 50% overrun it will yeild 125 bdft. The initial cost of the log is $22.50. When divided into the actual it is more like $.18 bdft log cost. That makes the tie pay you back about $.30 bdft. This is what I charge to saw custom so it works out pretty well. I have a forklift to load the bundle on my trailer, but the winch that I drag them off the mill with would easily stack them so I wouldnt really need extra equipment to saw ties.

Second is the time in cutting. You certianly dont have as much time in cutting a  tie from the heart as you would slicing it into 1x or 2x boards.

Third is the market. as eluded to the tie market seems pretty constant and they do seem to pay in a timely manner.

The drawback is that anything will not make a tie. My buyer will not accept ties with shake that goes more than 1/3 of the way around the ring. No heart rot. If it has a heart check it must be contained in the end of the tie. Heart must be 1.5'' in the tie or 1.5'' out of the tie. Very little bark and it must be trimmed off with a knife. He is also species specific. Some of the species on the list in the link that dgdrls provided my buyer will not take.

When the grade market here fell apart ties kept quite a few mom and pop pallet makers doors open.
Ties are a good way to market log guts. PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Ohio_Bill

Okrafarmer     I love your comment   (Another name for a tie is a rustic mantel.) I'm just not sure there is a market for truck loads of rustic mantels in my location.  I'm not much of a retail salesman and that is why ties appeal to me. I just saw them, put them on the truck, and cash the check. I have never taken the time to develop a retail market and that is a short coming on my part.

Ron, Thanks for explaining that if a tie was cut into inch lumber it would only be 17bf. That is a great tid bit of information.

Thank you everyone that has shared there experiences with ties I have learned a lot from your input.

Over the years I have been my main supplier of logs for ties and as the years are catching up with me ,not sure how long this old guy is going to stay in the woods logging .  It sure sounds from the comments it may not be easy to have a log supply for ties it you don't supply it yourself . 

Merry Christmas

Bill
Bill
USAF Veteran  C141 Loadmaster
LT 40 HDD42-RA   , Allis Chalmers I 500 Forklift , Allis Chalmers 840 Loader , International 4300 , Zetor 6245 Tractor – Loader ,Bob Cat 763 , Riehl Steel Edger

Ron Wenrich

Bill

That's 17 bf of lumber and a pallet cant. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Ohio_Bill

Ron, Yep that is what you said. Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding .
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 24, 2012, 05:08:19 AM
I sawed a lot more than you do on a band mill.  Usually we saw at least 1 load a week, if we're in those types of species.  We saw a lot of different lengths, so not all logs are suited for ties.  Any log that is 8' and tie species is cut to tie length.  It does give waste to your other blocking and boards, but the extra can be helpful in board trimming, or used to make a better grade board.

One thing I look at is the alternate return that you get from sawing a tie into lumber.  I saw all my stock down to blocking, usually a 3½x6.  A tie price would be about $22 FOB mill.  Blocking is $420/Mbf delivered.  Its easy to lose $10/Mbf in delivery costs.  That pallet cant will fetch $5.88.  That leaves $16.12 to get to breakeven in the remaining lumber.

Due to the over thickness and saw kerf, you'll end up only getting about 17 bf from the lumber.  That ends up being about an average of $950/Mbf lumber from those boards.  In today's markets, its pretty hard to average that in a tie quality log.  One board that is 2 Com will make your decision to pull boards from a tie a costly one. 

The other factor to consider is that your sawing costs go down when sawing ties.  You get better volume in a less amount of time, and that reduces costs.  The lower sawing costs should also be considered when looking at the alternate return.

You can talk about all those high prices in niche markets.  The problem is the market isn't big enough to handle all the logs into niche material.  If you did, the laws of supply and demand bites you, and prices would drop as the market dries up.  Reality is that you need other types of markets if you plan to do any type of volume. 
Bill
USAF Veteran  C141 Loadmaster
LT 40 HDD42-RA   , Allis Chalmers I 500 Forklift , Allis Chalmers 840 Loader , International 4300 , Zetor 6245 Tractor – Loader ,Bob Cat 763 , Riehl Steel Edger

Kansas

I just don't see a bandmill doing great cutting ties. Possibly if you had a near perfect supply of the right size of logs. But that is hard to do. You really are better off to find markets you dictate the terms, not someone like a tie buyer. Not saying that sometimes you don't have to do stuff to keep the wolf from the door. But it is easy to become complacent that  what someone offers you is the best you are going to do.

This morning we had a long time customer that does stuff for the railroad. He is as cheap as we go for oak. .85 cents. its 4x4's cut to length around 26 inches  long. Then they go back on the mill to be split into wedges. We get a dollar a cut for the splitting. We aren't setting the world on fire. But we can go through all our cants and logs that have serious problems, and simply cut out all the good stuff. To my way of thinking, those are the kinds of things that a bandmill can add value to. He ordered 200 of them. That comes up to around 590 dollars. Plus if we run out of cants, the side pieces just go into pallet lumber on the logs. We never use high grade.

People get into mindsets when they do the same thing all the time. Like last winter when I needed pallet lumber, cottonwood, simply cut 1 1/2 thick by random width. The catch was, they had to be 12 foot long. He got angry with me on the phone, and said we never cut longer that 8 foot, and we only cut 3 1/2 and 5 1/2 wide lumber or cants. I was offering better money, for something that circle mill of his could have blew through. Found out on Wenesedy, he is supposedly having an auction, and plans on moving to a different location. The guy I talked to thought it was just that the bank was closing in. He doesn't think there is a different location. He has been in business for a long time. But he is so set in his ways. He can't, as they say, think outside the box.

drobertson

bill, if I may call you bill, I have been cutting since 05' and have learned plenty. the fact is  unless one has a crew at the mill and a crew in the timber suppling the mill, it is a tough roe to hoe.  I have avg'd .2/ft buying logs, and cut custom from .2-.3/ft here now. This is close to what most big mills make as far as I know. I here that .25/ft is about normal. This is the clear profit, not counting slabs or dust. this is  petty cash.  The biggest problem I have ever encountered is logs that are not bobbed off if there is butt rot or hollow defects.  This automatically makes 4X6 cants that go for .3/ft,  so every log has to be scaled and graded. A common practice around here is by the weight, and this kills us smaller guys, logging is logging, very hard work, whether the logs are premium or junk. the mills that can chunk out the cants can absorb the loss, where I cannot.  This is why I preffer to cut custom whenever possible. A straight run with no up front cost.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Ohio_Bill

Kansas, IMO you are absolutely correct about a band mill not being great for cutting ties. So if a LT40SH is not great I should get some kind of award for cutting over 2000 ties on a LT15 with a 13 hp motor.  Up to this time in my life sawmilling has been a part time venture 20 or 30 hrs per week. My timber stand had been high graded several times over the last 100 years and was in need of a timber improvement cut to get rid of low grade and undesirable species. So that improvement cut has been the supply of the tie logs. After I got done with my 140 acres the neighbor asks me to do theirs. You may be right and I need to think outside the box and not do the same thing over and over again. I put a kiln in thinking of selling the grade that came off the side lumber. May have dried 15000 ft total over the last 8 years   and dealing with the retail customers has not been one of my most enjoyable past times . There are several large mills within 40 miles of me that do over 100000 ft a day and I have the Amish in my back yard that will custom cut for 170 per 1000. The Amish are not portable and I do get some portable work. That might be a good path to pursue. Up to this point ties have worked well because of the supply of logs and being able to set my own schedule.

Drobertson , I have heard of mills buying by weight but around here they scale and grade every log. The mill I sell too have over 2 million bf on there lot and the buyer has had a personal relationship with each log.  I would say Amen to your statement about one crew in the woods and one in the mill. I have done both jobs myself and it is tough sometimes.

Thanks everyone.
Bill

:christmas:
Bill
USAF Veteran  C141 Loadmaster
LT 40 HDD42-RA   , Allis Chalmers I 500 Forklift , Allis Chalmers 840 Loader , International 4300 , Zetor 6245 Tractor – Loader ,Bob Cat 763 , Riehl Steel Edger

Okrafarmer

I think it is good for any sized operation to be diversified and flexible, but especially for a small operation like mine. Ties and pallet lumber are good to be able to do if things are slow, or to use on those few logs that are good for them. Life would be so much simpler if they allowed an 8' tie, instead of 8'8 or whatever it is. Even 9' even would be an improvement. It is so much easier to ask for a 9' log with trim, than to say, I need to have an 8'8 log plus trim. Well what does that mean? I guess that ends up being about 9' even, so you can trim it to 8'8.

As I scanned down through the requirements for tie specs, I kept saying to myself, man, each one of these requirements would eliminate a lot of logs as possibilities. I really don't want to get into the situation where I am buying logs specifically for ties, because then I can't concentrate on buying logs for the more lucrative part of my business. If cutting ties and pallet lumber were the only viable thing available for me, I might have to reconsider whether it were worth staying in business. If I determined that it was, then I could be flexible enough to switch over and start doing them.

Meanwhile, if I try to work them into my current routine on the rare occasions where I have a log that is both suitable for it, and the core is not suitable for anything else, then my first ties might rot before I finished a truck load of them.  :-\
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

1woodguy

Very  very informative topic a real keeper
Experience is a rough teacher first you get the test later comes the lesson!

Ron Wenrich

There's a lot to be said about market stability.  I can saw a load of ties, and know that I have a buyer for it.  I'm not waiting for the phone to ring or spending time looking for a buyer at a higher price.  I saw the logs, they buy the ties.  Same goes with grade lumber.  If I have enough logs to make a load of grade, its sold with just one phone call.  And when markets get tough, those that have long histories with their buyers are the last ones to get cut out. 

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

two tired

the tie yard i haul to is verry good to take ties from me, even though I do not produce a large amount of ties, the yard is 150 miles away but I enjoy the trip. ties + pallet cants keep the hunger pangs away. lol. I buy my logs on the stump and do my own haulling, I cut switchties so I use a log from 9 to 17 ft. magicman did I mention I love sweetgum?   [saws like butter and they are everywhere.]
when wondering about weather conditions call the dog in and see if he is wet

francismilker

For clarification for the newby here......................where do you sell them?  How many makes up a "load"? And, what is the specific dimensions of a tie?  I worked a 7 year stint for the railroad a few years ago and seen em' come in via car load already creosote treated and ready for spiking, just never seen a raw one.  8' ties were standard for roadbeds, but ties came in all lengths for switches, sidings, and etc. 

I have a lot of bigger hardwoods on my place that might make a tie or two that I'd be interested in sawing, I just don't know how many I'd need to have piled up before trying to market them and if a buyer would buy from a one time seller.
"whatsoever thy hands finds to do; do it with thy might" Ecc. 9:10

WM LT-10supergo, MF-271 w/FEL, Honda 500 Foreman, Husq 550, Stihl 026, and lots of baling wire!

CCC4

Coming from mainly an Eastern red cedar background, completely covering the nitch market, then now currently working for a logging crew who mills ties, I have been able to see in full circle both sides of this thread.

Okrafarmer- I see where you are coming from, i also have sold many live sided erc mantel logs..split in half and total $100. Not bad at all but you can't sell them in quantities all day everyday. As far as those "crotches", I cut the bad fork off in the woods, angle cut the log and it goes to the scag mill. (hundreds per week)

When we need to come out of the woods and run the mill...as in the remainder  of this week (6in of snow)... we saw ties. Even with a 4 man crew we get out around 250 to 300 ties without much trouble, per day. We stockpile the bosses log yard with the ties logs, he doesn't hardly buy from individuals for same reasons as the OP. The other logs all go as scrag. I fell about 2 semi loads of sweet gum Christmas eve, if not for the tie market...that gum would be walked right passed. Ties and trailer decking absorbs the sweet gum, the side limber goes in the #4 stack.

Ron Wenrich

The standard tie size is either a 7x8 or 7x9.  Length is 8'6".  They like to see them cut plump.  I always kept mine 1/8" over, but they wanted them 1/4" from some producers.  There is also a 6x8 tie that goes to different markets.  I think in my area they said they went for subway systems and Canadian markets.  They don't pay nearly as well.  A typical load would be what you can fit on your truck.  We made bundles of 20, although some guys make them as small as 10.  Our loads are 220 ties, and its overweight.  If your truck hauls 20, then that's a load.

Switch ties can be anywhere from 10' to 23'.  They don't need too many 10-12'.  I used to sell quite a few 13-16', which sold at a little higher price.  We would also sell trailer loads of 22' or 23'.  Those ties fetched $750 per Mbf. 

They also would buy flange timbers and bridge timbers on occasion.  I haven't cut flange in years, and they don't buy lots of them.  They would be on special order and given to the bigger producers.  Same goes for bridge.  I used to cut a lot of bridge, and the prices were better than cutting grade.  At one time, I was getting $1.40/bf for some of the bigger timbers.  Bridge generally run from 8x8x10 to 10x17x15.  Again, bigger producers got those orders.

You would have to check with a local mill or your state forester to see where they're sending ties.  We sell to Koppers and a little local treatment plant.  There used to be 7 places we could send ties.  That's down to 3.  You may only have 1 or 2. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

paul case

Quote from: francismilker on December 26, 2012, 02:55:13 AM
For clarification for the newby here......................where do you sell them?  How many makes up a "load"? And, what is the specific dimensions of a tie?  I worked a 7 year stint for the railroad a few years ago and seen em' come in via car load already creosote treated and ready for spiking, just never seen a raw one.  8' ties were standard for roadbeds, but ties came in all lengths for switches, sidings, and etc. 

I have a lot of bigger hardwoods on my place that might make a tie or two that I'd be interested in sawing, I just don't know how many I'd need to have piled up before trying to market them and if a buyer would buy from a one time seller.

I sell my ties to the same buyer that buys at a bigger mill  near me. They unload my ties and the buyer comes by and grades them, and mails me a check. I have to bundle mine in 20 because thats how the bigger mill does. He loads the semi truck when he gets a load.
Doing it this way will keep you from having to have a big enough lift to load bigger bundles and you can sell more often. I have the names of a few buyers. If you pm me I will send you their numbers. They can tell you if they buy at a sawmill near you that can handle your bundles. PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Meadows Miller

Gday

I have not cut a Tie or Sleepers as we call them here for the Railroad for about 10 years i use to saw alot upto 1-120 a day with my older cousin in his 70s at the time from my teens and all he had cut his whole life was Hardwood Bridge Timbers,Sleepers 6x10x9's ,Fence Posts and Firewood

he also cut heaps of Droppers 1x1" and 1x2" by roughly 4' long hardwood that goes between the posts to tie the wire to they where $1.20 a piece plus last time i sawed any with him in the 90s cut 1000 a day out of a couple of logs your still making good money  ;)

We also have a huge Garden Grade Sleeper Market in Hardwood ,Cypress and Pine (treated) 6x2",6x3" & 8x2",8x3" & 8x4" in 4' to16's with the most common lengths being 8'-9' &10' foot that I have sawn Millions and Millions of bft of over the years ! And its what I am gearing my Sawmills to do atm along with Fencing Timber coming out of the smaller logs fence timbers posts are usually 5x3" to 6x6" in 6' to 10' lengths Rails are 3x1.5" or 3x2"  x  8' & 16' or 9 & 18' foot lengths we use a thing called Palings which are 4 & 6" wide and 1/2 an inch thick and 4 to 6' long usually that get nailed vertical in a board n batten style high piece count but better return per bft if your set up to do it properly and profitably  ;)

Log supply is the main factor for us all and has being the main pima for long time along with production capacity (being able to turn around large orders in short times I hated passing up good ongoing work )

Atm everything is falling into line for me and I have an awesome deal or Agreement  going now where We have the run of over 12000+ acres of Plantation Hardwoods + more to come along with 1000+ acres of private pine and another 12000ha of Private pine about 3 hrs away which will need its own mills and the Foresters are stoked along with Jack the logging contractor and The fellas who will be in on the retail side of things in Melbourne who also manage 20000acres of Hardwood and will have me milling 2000 ton plus of higher vale timbers P/a along with doing their own 10 to 20,000 ton of Firewood per year  ;) Im in charge of the Sawmilling Wholesale Direct Sales and eventually all the Trucking/Logistics including Firewood  :) :) Like I said to jack the other day this things turning out alot bigger than I/We had plans for when we met 8 weeks ago  :) :D :D but we will let things grow at their own pace another good thing everyone involved in this is very Debt Adverse and we all think the same way which is good  ;) ;D ;D 8)

The Plan Is we are all making a fair cut and have things be profitable for us All along the line and the beauty is We all get along really well and have been and want to be in this game for a Long Time to come coupled with the fact we can undercut every retailer (the ones who do the screwing down of prices for the rest of us) in Melbourne if we wanted to gives us a pretty large market with just the green sawn outdoor timber market Sometimes you have to change your thinking of how you do business ;)  ;D 8) 8)

With The Tie Market there as has been stated its a steady market and Anything can Be a Nitch Market if done Properly with the rite Determination, Attitude, Gear and or Personal and that can range from an Lt15 size mill  through to a dedicated mill that  ranges form getting $550 to $5500 per thousand they all have their own set of issues to overcome as I have done them all low value to high end stuff and everything in between ;)

edit .

I think the Garden Grade Tie market could work for alot of you in the States if your chasing tie production  if it wont make a Rail Tie just split it up the guts or into 3x 2x9"s or2x8"s or 3xs or a smaller tie if the logs a touch small ill add we get away with a fair ammount of wane and splits knots,rot these days here in Hardwood Garden Sleepers and people who want a high grade tie for retaining walls ect pay higher prices too  ;)

:new_year:

Best Regards Chris

4TH Generation Timbergetter

Bibbyman

Our Koppers buyer only wants 9' ties.  We saw 1/8" over 7x9 and trim to 9'-3", for some reason.


What is the industry tolerance to length?  Maybe I'm trimming some I wouldn't have to or not sending some that may be a little less than 9'-3" that would still be long enough?  I've asked the buyer but he implies there is no tolerance.   
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Sawing since '94

Meadows Miller

Gday

Bibby I reckon they should let you send stuff in that just a touch over length but it all depends how they have their docker set up i spose but it would not hurt to talk to them about it Mate  ;) Here most ties are just square trimmed chainsaw cuts for ties thats  measure and go between Bang on to 1/2 over cut n done Hell we use to just dock the logs in the yard with a 9' stick and that was it mill it put it in the pack  ;) Only the bigger mills docked with circular trim saws because they had them inline with the mill ;)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

beenthere

Bibby

One way to find out....  ;D

But at what risk do you want to try it?
south central Wisconsin
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Bibbyman

Quote from: beenthere on December 27, 2012, 03:53:33 PM
Bibby

One way to find out....  ;D

But at what risk do you want to try it?

So far, we've never delivered a cull RR tie.  I've seen many on the lot just as well made and pre-culled but I've seen many far worse.   Some mills make awful poor ties - thick, thin, tapered, what have you. But they may have culled them.  I know the buyer has stopped buying from some mills because of the poor quality and trying to sneek junk in the bundle.
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Ron Wenrich

A lot depends on how bad they need ties.  When markets are good, they just come in, count the ties and leave a check.  No rejects.  When times aren't as good, they usually give about a 2% reject rate.  I think they do that just to keep the mills honest, and to lower their purchase price for a load without lowering unit price.  Sort of what the grade buyers do when they stiffen grade but not price.

Our buyer would take ties that were 1" under the 8'6" rule during good times.  I don't know if I'd try it now.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

drobertson

the way it was explained to me was no rot or shake on the ends, and from the end of the tie 11"s in to 30"s in is the rail plate area. no holes deeper than 2" and rot is still considered on the face. and the face of the tie should have no more than 1" of wane taking away from the square face. ie,9" face is allowed an 8" face.  rot and holes are the major defects. 
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Ron Wenrich

When they inspect ties at the mill, they are only looking at the ends.  Most of the rest of the tie is buried.  They do know who's tie it is when they get it to their yard and do the reman work to it.  Too many problems will lead to harder inspections. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Bibbyman

At the buying yard where we market they load with a grapple loader.  They say that they take layer by layer and inspect the top and bottom as they load. But they have forked our bundles off the truck and dumped them directly into the RR car.

The buyer has a pile of examples they point out.  One tie was more hole than tie. He said he took it back to the mill and showed them why they were off the approved supplier list.
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Sawing since '94

Ohio_Bill

I had sold ties at Stella Jones treatment Plant in West Virginia. They unloaded the ties and the ties were placed on a conveyer and graded on all 4sides plus the ends were trimmed and graded. Over the years I had a few ties downgraded to what they called industrial but I never had one rejected. That plant has now closed so the closest location to me is Koppers and my experience with them is similar to Bibbyman's. I usually take 40 7by9's and 20 6by8's on a load.  All  8 ft 6inch  plus trim which  works out to be 105 inches .
Bill
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Cedarman

Years ago we had a third size. 7x8  Is that size not allowed now?
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Ron Wenrich

They're still using them.  When markets were tight, the local Koppers wanted a certain percentage of 7x8.  I think that was to keep average costs down. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

reride82

What Species are usually allowed for Ties? Hardwood, Softwood?

Levi
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ahlkey

Very helpful and timely post.  I am ready to start on a timber stand improvement harvest for 80 acres of hardwoods (Maple, Beech, White Ash, & Oak) on the old homestead. It hasn't been harvested for various reasons other than for firewood since 1940.  Volume levels are very high but quality is low-grade.  Rather than cuting all the cordwood for bolts & firewood I have been considering ties as well?  In the past have done pallet cants but at the end I didn't feel it much better than just selling the bolts to the pallet mill. However, with ties it might make sense on the low grade logs that just don't make the cut for lumber.  When your options are limited and you can make a little why not?  One good point is I can do all the logging and sawing at convienent times given it is the old homestead plus I already have all the necessary equipment to handle handle the ties.   Thanks for all information

Bibbyman

The best ties are made from good, solid logs that happen to be less desirable than their cousins.  For example, a good white oak will often bring better price as veneer or stave log.  Where the burr and post oak cousins do not. 

Same with true red oak.  A really good true red oak will normally bring more money than you can afford to make into a tie.  The black oak and other cousins are not so valuable and make good ties. 

But you'll starve trying to make ties out of junk logs.  Too many defects like crook, forked ends, big knots with rot under them, hollow, shake and shell and all you will be doing is sawing cull ties.
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Ohio_Bill

Quote from: reride82 on December 28, 2012, 12:15:52 PM
What Species are usually allowed for Ties? Hardwood, Softwood?

Levi
Ashes Gums Oaks
Beech Hackberries Pines
Birches Hemlocks Poplars
Catalpas Hickories Redwoods
Cherries Larches Sassafras
Douglas fir Locusts Spruces
Elms Maples Sycamores
Firs (true) Mulberries Walnuts

Each Rail Road has there own list of types of wood they will accept. The Rail Road Tie Association   RTA.org has a list of specifications.  Before producing ties you should get in touch with a tie buyer to see what there requirement are.
:new_year:
Bill
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WH_Conley

I sell to Koppers, they want 9', will take a few as short as 8'6", not many. QAy 8'6" they have to be square on the ends.
Bill

Bibbyman

Quote from: WH_Conley on December 28, 2012, 11:12:33 PM
I sell to Koppers, they want 9', will take a few as short as 8'6", not many. QAy 8'6" they have to be square on the ends.

What length are you trimming your 9' to?
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WH_Conley

9' even, give or take an inch.

I take it that specs are a little different according to which treatment plant they go to. Different plants for different railroads.
Bill

doghunter

i cut ties quite often it makes a good market for sound knotty logs generated from our logging operation. My buyer buys all hardwood species except ash and poplar. If a log culls out(somtimes you uncover a defect not shown on the outside) on the carraige i just make 2 4x6 pallet cants out of it. It sure is nice to spend a rainy day at the mill when its unfit to be in the woods gives the guys and i some income on a day that otherwise would be lost  doghunter

Okrafarmer

Ok, and while we are mentioning pallet cants, I guess I have another question-- how do you know when a cant is too low quality even for a pallet cant? And you say you make 4X6 cants-- is that a standard size? How much do they give for these pallet cants? About the same per bf as ties?

One thing that does happen to me a bit, is that I get down into a log and find I'm in pallet material. . . . .   :( I suppose that will happen less as I learn to read  :P the logs better.  ;D
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

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Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

stavebuyer

Quote from: Okrafarmer on December 30, 2012, 01:23:42 AM
Ok, and while we are mentioning pallet cants, I guess I have another question-- how do you know when a cant is too low quality even for a pallet cant? And you say you make 4X6 cants-- is that a standard size? How much do they give for these pallet cants? About the same per bf as ties?

One thing that does happen to me a bit, is that I get down into a log and find I'm in pallet material. . . . .   :( I suppose that will happen less as I learn to read  :P the logs better.  ;D

Thats another plus for ties. You do get quite a few unwelcome surprizes in knotty logs.. especially in red oak. That extra board or two past the 7x9 sometimes leaves you with nothing but punky firewood chunks.

Ron Wenrich

If you're getting punky firewood chunks after pulling a few boards, you won't be getting a good tie.

Whenever you put a log on the carriage, you should be thinking about what you're going to be cutting out of the heart.  Some logs will support a good tie, some won't.  You should be able to see that by the outside appearance in many cases.  Others won't show up until you open the log up. 

In some cases, you'll be able to cut out the defect.  In others, you need a plan B.  That is usually to go to pallet cants.  My rule has always been that if I wouldn't want to buy it, I don't want to sell it.  The big kickers in pallets are rot and shake.  They can't use them. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Meadows Miller

Happy Birthday Jim I hope you had a goodone Mate ;) ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) 8)


I reckon with sawing sleepers you do have to budget and focus being productive and making money with even the lowest grade on the list whether that be Firewood or Pallet Timber/cants here in hardwood i make 5x3 fence posts or firewood out of anything thats not a tie and in the pine its all pallet material Mate  ;)

Reards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

WoodenHead

This has been an interesting thread.  Does anyone have contacts for tie buyers in Ontario (Canada)?  What are the specs for ties here?

hackberry jake

I accepted some work from a commercial mill near me to cut metal logs. That mill produces between 200-500 ties a day. I took them some where the heart wasn't centered, one heart actually ran out of the tie. I had to cut them that way because of where the metal was. The owner said they would take them like that. I guess I need to ask him who he is selling them to.
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KnotBB

Quote from: Bibbyman on December 27, 2012, 12:49:19 PM
Our Koppers buyer only wants 9' ties.  We saw 1/8" over 7x9 and trim to 9'-3", for some reason.


What is the industry tolerance to length?  Maybe I'm trimming some I wouldn't have to or not sending some that may be a little less than 9'-3" that would still be long enough?  I've asked the buyer but he implies there is no tolerance.

I just got this info from the "local" log buyer on lengths, double end trimmed  to spec length +/- 1/2".  Pretty tight on length and +/- 1/16" on dimensions.

Species D.Fir/hem-fir
To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

Okrafarmer

That's awfully picky. Too picky for me, especially at those low prices. I can barely mill to a 1/16" tolerance.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Ron Wenrich

They don't need ties.  My understanding of West Coast log specs are that they're pretty tight.  Logs that are too long will be docked in pay.  Seems to flow into the product stream.

Here on the East Coast, we're not as tight.  The local tie buyer doesn't care if its 10', they're only paying for an 8'6" tie.  The rest is waste.  Your loss.

As for dimension, ours uses a timber sizer.  They prefer that they are oversized so they can size them the way they want.  They had requested 1/4" over but I wouldn't cut more than 1/8" over.  Never had rejects due to size, but I held a steady cut.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

stavebuyer

Our order will accept 8'6" to 9'2" in length. We shoot for 1/8" over on the height and width but a tolerance of  +/- a 1/4" is accepted.

Okrafarmer

Do you freehand the ends with a chainsaw, or do you use a cut-off saw or jig of some kind to make them square? I can imagine building a jig for a chainsaw to make it line up nice and square.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Ron Wenrich

We cut with a chainsaw.  Some mills have double end trimmers.  I believe that's what they have at the processing plant.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

paul case

I end trim with a chainsaw as well but the mill where I take my ties to now has an old homebuilt cutoff saw that will trim them 2x as fast as a chainsaw.

PC
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pc

WH_Conley

When they are arrive at the plant they are double end trimmed to final length and the plates are put on the end. My buyer is not real particular about the ends except they don't like "steps", where there is a stump shot, or uneven cut with offset. Somehow it messes with the machine. Doesn't have to be square, just fairly smooth.
Bill

two tired

The tieyard I haul to wants the ties 3" over length, but they are not verry strict about the length. All in all I am worse about culling the cants than the the people at the tie yard.
when wondering about weather conditions call the dog in and see if he is wet

scully

Still prity new here ,Best thread I have seen yet ! For a guy like me trying to figure out how ,why and what ,This has been extremely informational ! So far my take on it is ,if you need something to fall back on or know when to finish out a log ending with a tie there is some $ to be made . I don't think I would focus on just sawing ties but if you wound up with 40 or  50 after a good run of sawing seems to me that would be kinda nice . Some of you more experianced guys that answered lost me afterthe first sentance LOL !
I bleed orange  .

KnotBB

For me I see that the profit is in the jacket boards.  The ties will pay for the logs and a little of the labor.  If I can't find a market for those side boards other than fire wood it's a lot of labor for little profit but I'm dealing with conifer ties.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to run a batch of ties and see what recovery I get from those side boards.  The hope I'm reaching for is that 25% of them will be clears which generally you can find a market for.  But we know what that got us for a president.
To forget one's purpose is the commonest form of stupidity.

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