What to pay for logs

[millstead]

I was wondering what you guys are paying for logs I had a guy tha owns a tree service company ask me if I wanted to buy any logs I was wondering what would be a fair price for mixed hardwood logs that are mostly yard trees delivered to my mill  thanks

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I have never bought Hardwood but buy a good bit of Pine from Loggers. Their logs come from Forest Tracts, not yards. I pay anywhere from $125-$175 a thousand.
If I were to buy from a tree service, I would specify a minimum diameter. If you don't they will load you up with junk.
I would offer them as little as possible since yard trees have a high chance of having metal in them.


Check with a local Forester and he can tell you what the price for logs are in your area.

[Magicman]

I personally do not pay my tree service guy anything for the logs that I get from him.  He delivers some, and some, I go and pick.  He sells any that makes "good" logs to a commercial sawmill.  He presently has several at his yard that I need to pick up.  He will load them for me with his bobcat.


 
He delivered these 8'6" SYP logs.


 
I picked up these ERC logs.

The point being that my tree service has an outlet for good logs.  Others are questionable and I am doing him a favor by taking them.

[Ron Wenrich]

If its a tree service, don't buy them.  They usually aren't of high quality, due to the rapid growth that comes from open grown trees.  Most often these trees don't prune well.  The other factor is there's usually trash metal in them.  Not all of them, just enough for you to lose money in them.

Figure out what his alternative is.  He can haul them to the dump, where they charge him a tipping fee.  He can grind them, which means to hire someone in since his chipper can't handle them.  He can try to take them to another mill for sale, which he probably has and has been turned down.  He can put them into firewood, which takes time away from tree trimming.  Or he can give them away. 

Selling them is the most profitable.  Giving them away is the second most profitable.  The rest cost him money and time and reduces profits. 

I do consulting work for an operation that their only log resource is from tree service guys.  Big logs are cut short, since the tree service can only lift logs of a certain weight.  Logs will have pocket of rot, and they will be poorly bucked and trimmed.  You will have to scan for metal.  Those are all big expenses on your part. 

[thecfarm]

I have trees around here with metal in them.   :  One has a bug catcher hanging from it,2 have flag holders,a couple have hanging baskets brackets. One has an eye hook for the clothes line pulley. Listen to these guys,they know.

[taylorsmissbeehaven]

I deal with three tree guys. One always wants something for his logs, I rarely deal with him because of this and he knows it. The other two are happy to give me every log they cut. Most of the time I go get them but one of them delivers if he is in the area. Its worth his fuel to be rid of them. I do cut sides for dump trucks, trailers, ect. if one of those two asks me to. We have been working together for several years and have become pretty good friends. You do have to scan all there logs and sometimes you lose that battle, but thems the breaks!Brian

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I think something we all forget sometimes when talking about buying logs is.....have a preplan.
What is my niche? Don't get tunnel vision on a certain way a log was grown, where it came from or what it looks like.
I have had BIG logs come in that I have sawn that was U G U L Y. Even though I hit metal in these logs, the log was slabbed for table tops, benches, kitchen islands or what ever I thought I could make a dollar on.
A bunch of times I have sold slabs from an ugly log and have made more money than if I had sawn lumber and the cost of my blades were covered.

So have a plan..... There is money in logs other sawyers turn down.

And the UGLY LOGS?? I can usually get these FREE!

[drobertson]

I have a tree service I work with from time to time.  In the past I did purchase logs and paid the going rate, 275/m  I have been bit by the iron bug on occasion, and have learned allot about some trees that hide the signs of metal.  Yard trees are high percentage iron bit.  Since I have been cutting for him, he has figured it is much cheaper for him to get the lumber,  I did turn down around 5000 bd'ft not long ago, nice folks, they just thought it was worth more than it was, I did not want hard feeling between anyone so, he took the logs to another mill.

[Ron Wenrich]

The question isn't about whether to take the logs or not, the question is how much to pay. 

[millstead]

I was thinking maybe .25 a board foot do you guys think that is fair price

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I was thinking maybe .25 a board foot do you guys think that is fair price

What species?

[Magicman]

The way I read your OP, he contacted you, which means that he wants to sell them.  That is a "fishing expedition" to me.  If he wants to sell them, then he should put the price on them, and then you can negotiate a final price that is suitable and satisfactory to both of you.

How much you pay will depend upon your need, your market, or use for the lumber vs your total cost which would include the log cost plus the sawing expenses.

As previously stated,  I have not and will not ever pay a tree service for logs that he is trying to get rid of.  On occasion I have bought downed trees and have never paid over $80 Mbf.

[drobertson]

Milstead, that is fair, I was paying .30 for logs that scaled over 45bd'ft, .15 for logs that scaled below 45bd'ft. I need to mention these are oak, pine is another story, least amount possible.  And there were times he just dropped them off no charge, he and I are friends now, I always wanted to help out a friend whenever possible.
The only biter is the ones that hide the iron stain. Out here, red oak will show a good blue/purple stain, as do walnuts and white oak. I have had hickory hide the evidence as well as pine.  Not sure about what you are looking at, but surely once you get use to them you could figure out what to look for. Knowing the history of where the logs come from can be helpful, and most of the time these guys will have a good idea as well.  I would just suggest if it is possible to communicate what length you are looking for before they buck the logs,  david

[Okrafarmer]

I am working up to the point of purchasing logs. I plan on scaling and grading the logs according to my own set of rules (which are written and can be passed out to the sellers so they understand how I am doing it). I will break it down by species and quality. Logs that don't meet a certain quality or measurement requirement, I will not accept at all. Such as logs that are totally dead and rotten, or short wood less than 4' long. Then anything that I can sell for pulp, I will accept for free. It has to be a minimum of 8' long. Same goes for logs I can marginally get some lumber out of and still dispose of the waste easily. Anything with known metal in it must either meet pulp wood dimensions, or be big enough I can get some obvious lumber out of it, in which case I take metal-bearing wood for free. From there on, I scale the logs on the International scale, and assess each one for quality. Higher quality logs fetch a higher price. Each species (or species group) is priced differently from the others. I will adjust my prices weekly as need be to reflect my needs and control my inventory.

I would share my current price table with you, but alas, it is on Microsoft Excell, and if I tried to cut and paste it here, it would not line up in the Forum to make sense.  :snowman:

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Sound good Okra. I hope you have plans for OkrasWife to run the mill.....all your time will be spent as an Inspector.  :christmas:

[VictorH]

Hey Okra - you could print or save you doc as a PDF - then share it  ;)
Just saying
Victor

[Okrafarmer]

Sound good Okra. I hope you have plans for OkrasWife to run the mill.....all your time will be spent as an Inspector.  :christmas:

No, I'm going to train other people to do most of the inspecting. If they get one they aren't sure about, they can ask.

Hey Okra - you could print or save you doc as a PDF - then share it  ;)
Just saying
Victor

How do you do that? Is it complicated?

[captain_crunch]

Dont have that problem but he had to get rid of em which costs him so unless you are Desprate for some thing to cut would not pay anything and with tramp metal which will be there 0 per thousand would be fair

[Okrafarmer]

About 90% of the logs I mill are from urban sources, and I find "non-obvious" metal in less than 5% of them. Maybe less than 2%. For a circle mill, you really have to watch your metal, but a bandmill cuts right through 16 penny nails. You have to put a sharp blade on, so it slows you down by a few minutes, but it's really no big deal. To me.

[WDH]

Yeah, but who wants to plane lumber with metal in it?  In my opinion, metal in lumber is totally unacceptable.  The portion of a log with metal in it is firewood or bug food.  If I bought  lumber that had metal in it and it ruined my woodworking tools, I would be very very very very PITHED. 

There is no place for metal in lumber, especially hardwood lumber.  It is trash.

[beenthere]

Ditto on that comment from WDH.   :snowball1: :snowball1:

[Okrafarmer]

Ditto on that comment from WDH.   :snowball1: :snowball1:

Of course, I agree. But my point is, there is a lot more lumber in the log, than the part that has nails in it. If you find metal in a log, you have to determine whether it is worth trying to mill the rest of the log out or not. In some cases, I won't, in other cases I will. I discard the part that has nails in it, unless it is something very special, in which case, I mark the nails and point them out to the buyer. I have sold some walnut that had nails in it, after pointing them out. Or, I pull them out.

[Ron Wenrich]

 

 

This is what I'm dealing with.  Think about 3 acres like this.  All are urban logs.  2% of the logs with trash?  That may be wishful thinking.  All of the logs have to be scanned.  You really can't afford to have that amount in your resource stream.  Not long term. 

These guys are using a big scanner for their logs, and the manpower necessary to do this is high.  What they'll be doing on the mill is running the logs through large metal detectors.  Its the yellow thing in the background.  It'll take a 32" log.  There are 6' logs laying in the yard. 



 

I've sawn through 16d nails with a circle mill.  Damage to blades depend a lot on angle of the nail and the species sawn.  Most times you damage a few teeth, and they are easily repairable or replaceable.  But, you still don't want them in your product stream.  Not in the log or the lumber.  If you have them in cants, they won't be buying from you for long.  They are acceptable in ties.

[drobertson]

that's allot of timber, and I guess allot of expense? how much for the logs if I may be so bold to ask? by the ton most likely?

[Okrafarmer]

Naturally, Ron, you are talking about a high-production setup that is aiming for uniform products. I agree with you on that. For those of us who eschew uniformity, and are always looking for the oddest wood possibly, nails are among the least of our worries.

I'm getting fairly decent at spotting the tell-tale signs of hardware. Sometimes I miss the signs, or they are beyond my ability (maybe most anyone's ability). I just replace the band and keep going. I don't even use my metal detector most of the time, unless I think I spot something. Once I hit metal, if I still have a generous chunk of log or cant on the mill, I'll either use the detector, or else guesstimate how far down I have to jump to miss the rest of the metal. Preferably while still wearing the same band. If it's a marginal log to begin with, it comes off the mill and goes to the firewood or pulp pile. The quality and quantity of the wood left in the log determines whether I keep going.

Planning to saw two nice cherry logs for a customer tomorrow. Came from their back yard. I think I will go ahead and scan them before putting them on. Can't hurt to scan. I wouldn't want to ruin their nice wood by having the blade dip from hitting a nail. If I can find nails, I'll saw around them.

[Okrafarmer]

I would love to have the job of triaging that pile at Ron's customer's place! And milling it up, too. The big metal detector will make it much easier on them. I believe there was one at Hancock Lumber when I worked there in 2000. I guess it may have cost more than my house.  :-\ It will save them that much over time, though, if they get up and running successfully.

[WDH]

At the big pine mill that I procured logs for, metal was a big issue.  We were always on a campaign to educate loggers about metal and when they were likely to find it like old hedgerows, old fence lines, and old abandoned house sites.  If a truck came in with visible metal, it was turned around and rejected.  The whole load.  That is costly to have to take a load back to the woods, but there had to be a deterrent because otherwise the loggers would be lax.  If it happened twice, the logger was in trouble and on probation.  Our policy was that you at least need to inspect the load, and if we can see metal at the scales, the logger/truck driver could have seen it too. 

[Ron Wenrich]

that's allot of timber, and I guess allot of expense? how much for the logs if I may be so bold to ask? by the ton most likely?

The cost for the logs is $0.  There's no weighing, there's no scaling.  They give a receipt to the guy that does the delivery.  There may be some government involved in this, not sure. 

Triage is to scan the logs with hand scanners, cut out the metal, buck and trim, and paint the length on the end.  They separate by length and not species, which is a mistake.  They also think that pine is worthless, so they separate pine from hardwoods.  Species identification is another problem that has to be tackled.  Their forester can't even separate them at this point. 

There was talk about tagging logs with a barcode.  I nixed that idea telling them their logs had too low of a value to warrant tagging and it was too expensive.  Tagging would be beneficial if they are paying for logs and wanted to regulate pricing by species and grade.  They can't control their inventory since they take all that are delivered.

I think they want to give the local government an idea of how much wood they take in.  I suggested getting a portable scales and weighing the trucks.  That way they could report that they kept out so many tons of waste from the landfills.  Those government officials would understand weight, but not footage.  Keep the local boys happy and things go a lot easier on you. 

Okra:

Do you think they don't separate the unusual stuff out?

WDH:

Good policy for woods grown trees and volumes like you were buying.  I've always had problems with loggers that would send in logs with visible metal.  When foresters are marking timber, they should be marking anything with visible metal and warning of anything suspect, and making volume deductions.  Some of them are lax, as well.

[WDH]

We all carried "Killer Tree" flagging tape with a skull and crossbones on it.  That way, anytime that you saw a tree on any of our tracts that you suspected had metal, it got flagged.  When the logging was done, these trees would be left for the red birds to nest in.  Deer stands were a big problem, especially the ones where spikes or old cotton picker spindles were used as steps.

The mill had twin bansaws and a chipping headrig.  The bandsaws were about 6" - 8" wide.  When one of those wrecked, all heck broke loose.   

[thecfarm]

3 acres that look like that?? WOW!!! would take a couple more to sort it and stack it.

[Seaman]

In Western N.C., I have paid from 10 cent to 30 cent a BF. Fixin to pay $1.30 for some really nice walnut. I am buying mostly ugly wood tho, and am looking for figure, not graded lumber. Don't know if this helps any.

[Okrafarmer]

From Ron:
Okra:

Do you think they don't separate the unusual stuff out?

I'm sure most commercial mills do separate it out, and put the unusual stuff either into pallet wood or pulp wood. The ones around here do, anyway. Most commercial mills are (rightly) looking for consistent, safe, quality logs that meet their standardized needs. Some of us are not. Some of us find our best lumber in logs that would be rejected or marked down to pallet grade by big mills.

As for your guys in New Jersey, there's no telling what they do without your intervention! Moving up to the stationary metal detector from the hand held will be a big step forward for them. Then they will likely discard all logs that have metal in them (unless it can be quickly identified and removed). When they get into full swing they should probably have a semi coming at least once a month to remove pulp wood. 

[WDH]

I also procured wood for a large pulpmill.  Metal in pulpwood was also a problem.  Don't send logs with metal to the pulpmill either.  Metal in the diaper pulp that we made was a huge NO-NO.

[Okrafarmer]

I also procured wood for a large pulpmill.  Metal in pulpwood was also a problem.  Don't send logs with metal to the pulpmill either.  Metal in the diaper pulp that we made was a huge NO-NO.

We generally remove any known metal. But we figure their metal detector will catch it, or they would have magnets post-grind if it's important. Most of our pulpwood is from tree tops, since the lower parts are sawmilled.

I will do a better job of keeping known or suspected metal out of the pulp wood loads. The two procurers we go to have never once said anything about it. They complain if the logs are too short or too big in diameter, but have never said anything about metal.

[WDH]

I guess it depends on what you are making as to your sensitivity to metal in the product.  For furniture lumber, that is a disaster waiting to happen.  If you are making diapers, Mothers do not like metal on their babies bottom.  The Japanese really freak out about this as they buy a lot of diaper pulp. 

If a supplier knowingly hauled us wood with metal and we found out, that supplier immediately got the opportunity to haul to another mill.  Immediately. 

[Okrafarmer]

Wood chips for biomass- I would think metal would not be a real big deal, as long as it didn't tear up the chipper / grinder. I do not know how the inner workings of a paper mill go, so I don't know what methods they use to protect themselves from metal. It seems to me that getting occasional metal would be fairly routine for them, since even out in the forest, people still sometimes put nails in trees. Deer stands, kids "secret" tree houses, fences, no-trespassing signs, etc. My dad was furious with me when he found out I pounded my initials into one of his hemlock trees with 16 penny nails when I was about 7 years old.  I think I used about fifteen nails per letter! He told me to pull them out. I got out quite a few, but I know I didn't get them all out, and I think he forgot to check back . . . .

Anyway, I will be more vigilant about it in the future. I am sure our buyers would not "like" to have metally logs brought to them, but I'm just saying they have never complained or mentioned it in passing. The sawmills, yes. The pulp buyers, no.

[hackberry jake]

I just took on a partial metal saw job. The high production circle mill set aside all their logs with "suspected metal". He asked me if I would saw them into 5/4 lumber and 7x9 ties. I took him up on the offer but told him I would saw a 16" trailer load before I accepted and started getting more loads. I hit metal twice. Once I was pretty sure there was metal in the cut, but I had to make the cut to keep the heart fairly centered in the tie. A $22 tie will easily pay for a $15 band. The other time it was a surprise. Both times I was able to resharpen the band and keep using it. Most of the logs had metal, but as okra has said, I was able to cut around it. These logs had no value to him so anything he made off of them were profit. We each made roughly $300 a piece off of 6 metal logs. I'll be going back to get another load when I finally get to start working 8hr shifts again at work. These 12hrs are wearing me out. Metal logs aren't worth much to high $ operations, but us small scale bandmillers don't have that much to lose, especially if there is something to gain.

[T Welsh]

You guys are giving us Tree Service owners a bad rap. Yes everything that has been said is true to some extent! It depends who you are dealing with and what you are dealing with! I cull out every tree or log that is suspect of containing metal and paint it. My reputation at the mills are on the line and I do not want to jeopardize that. I sell logs to woodworkers and hobbyist,I live in the same state and geographical area is important! Lower grade logs are in the 0.25 to 0.35 cent range and higher quality logs are double. I gave a customer a Walnut log with metal in it a week or so ago,he wanted it and was willing to take the chance of hitting it and was willing to pay for it,I just said you can have it! We get some beautiful logs from time to time and the fair price is the going price at the mill. So check a couple of the local mills in your area and then subtract the loading and trucking and you have your fair price!. Tim

[isawlogs]

 I'll throw in my two cents in here too, any, no mater how much metal should be kept out of any production no matter where this production is. It is costly and time consuming to deal with, to take for granted that someone down the road will find metal that is or could possibly be in a log is something I cannot do. Known metal bearing wood should either be left to rot, or cut up for your own use and you deal with it.. I let it rot as I really ... reallly do not want or care to have any of my tools to come near metal ever.... !

[Okrafarmer]

A wide range of opinions!

I actually get a sense of satisfaction any time I "steal" good wood from a log with nails, and miss the nails. Or pull the nails out and mill good lumber.  To each his or her own.

[red oaks lumber]

okra
please explain your operation to me in some detail. starting with when you commenced your business.i think i'm confused

[Okrafarmer]

I am an independent contractor who works primarily for one contractor, who has several different enterprises. I help out with several of those enterprises. A tree service, sawmill, grading outfit, and farm.

A little over two years ago, he bought a sawmill and we started milling lumber to sell, mainly from the tree service logs he collected. Meanwhile, we continued to sell logs we didn't need or want, to local sawmills and log yards. I began selling lumber locally, mainly to hobbyists.

Over time, and as I have gained experience sawying, the lumber production and sales portion of business has grown. This September, we purchased a Woodmizer LT-40HD and have been using it since.

Our plan is to separate the sawmill and lumber business into a totally separate corporation entity and have me work it full time. I am planning to finalize a property lease agreement to begin in January. At that time, our advertizing will also go into full swing.

Right now we are not purchasing many logs, but if and as business picks up, we will need more logs than my current boss is able to provide through his tree service, so we will start buying them.

One of my friends is planning to invest in the corporation along with me and my current boss. His added capitol will help to get us on our feet, so to speak, and he will also be helping out significantly with sales. He owns a business that already deals with high-end home builders, so we are looking to sell specialty wood products to the high-end builders as well as continue with hobbyists, and pursue other markets as well.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

And there you have it.

Way to go Okra!

[red oaks lumber]

you dont have your own operation you just work for someone else?dont get me wrong i find it interesting, just trying to figure out you're roll in it all.

[Okrafarmer]

I do not have my own operation. That is correct. I am the sawyer. When we transition to the corporation, I will be a part owner.