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Future of Paper?

Started by Gary_C, December 15, 2012, 04:14:35 AM

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Gary_C

Here are three short articles that appeared in the local paper.

As society sheds paper, an industry shrinks
Minnesota loggers feeling pain due to cuts in demand for wood
Carving a new future from Minnesota's trees: Textiles

Kind of a sobering view of the future for paper, the mills that produce it, and the loggers that have supplied it for many years.

And as for the outlook for fuel, there is a line in one of those stories about the surplus of natural gas that has resulted in 30 % of the N. Gas that came out of the ground in nearby North Dakota was burned to get rid of it.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

gjersy

Yep it's a sad deal, mills shutting down, mills moving over seas for cheap stumpage and labor, we're in trouble. Domtar has enough pulp to last through the spring breakup, New page and Mosinee are filled up also, that takes care of the pulp mills around here. Another sad thing is these wanna be loggers that collect there unemployment all winter from there hwy heavy, or whatever big money union jobs they got, and help fill the mills up. I know of several guys illegally collecting unemployment while there playing logger, all to our detriment.
If life gives you lemons, throw 'em into a quart of vodka.

MJD

Yes this is sad, I have thought for years that the world wide web that we veiw this forum on is to blame. If there was no internet the post office  would not be in the hole and the newspapers would not be disappearing and the need for paper would be huge. I really believe if the internet was shut off the economy would come back, sure there would be some that would loose there job (my son 1 of them) do to no internet but for every job lost there would be 2 or 3 added, the internet has made everything to easy.

Cedarman

If we got rid of cars, we would need more buggy whip makers.  Those in declining industries must adapt, change or move on.  That is the way capitalism works.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Woodhog

Our province ( Nova Scotia) recently bought our paper mill's assets for $1.00 (CDN).

The mill, the woodlands (543,000) acres, wood generated power plant, shipping docks etc.

One of the conditions of the sale was they will never use the facility to produce paper again.

It looks like the woodlands may be managed under the Community Forests system. It is 4 % of our whole province land mass.

The mill facility is going to be turned into an experimental base for value added products made from
cellulose.

Quite an exciting project for sure, so they think there is life after paper....

chevytaHOE5674

Our paper mill was sold off under a similar "non-competitive paper business" notion. Talk was about how they could do so many other things with the facilities, 6 months later they started knocking the building to the ground. Now 2 years later all that is left is a flat field with grass and brush growing up.....

WindyAcres

I have a 65 acre woodlot, with lots of pulp on it but its not worth cutting it. So I either leave it in the woods for the system or burn it. Works good both ways for me. Actually, I will go in the woodlot now to pull out some firewood for next year (wish I had more hardwoods but they get replaced with spruce around here).

What I need as a private guy is big trees. That way I can do ok even with a very small tractor/horse. Besides, I need big trees for my mill too to make it worth it in most cases!

Cheers!
2011 Woodmizer Lt40 Hyd G28, Stihl Chainsaws, Tractor with Farmi Winch, Woodturning Lathe,....

snowstorm

Quote from: Gary_C on December 15, 2012, 04:14:35 AM
Here are three short articles that appeared in the local paper.

As society sheds paper, an industry shrinks
Minnesota loggers feeling pain due to cuts in demand for wood
Carving a new future from Minnesota's trees: Textiles

Kind of a sobering view of the future for paper, the mills that produce it, and the loggers that have supplied it for many years.

And as for the outlook for fuel, there is a line in one of those stories about the surplus of natural gas that has resulted in 30 % of the N. Gas that came out of the ground in nearby North Dakota was burned to get rid of it.
the mill in mn will reopen new owner they will make cardboard. the mill itself was ok after the explosion but the power lines were gone. vaporized as i was told .thats why it was closed. nano cellulose may be what saves some of the paper mills. sappi is not the only one workings on it . verso is also. it may look and act like plastic but its made from wood. they have a water bottle made from it looks like any plastic water bottle except after 90 days its gone nothing to recycle or put in the landfill. just need to drink the water before the 90 days are up or your gonna get wet

Mark Wentzell

I can see that we're not using as much paper as we once were, but we sure seem to be buying a lot more stuff most of which has paper packaging in some form or another. There's been research done lately about making disposable electronics which use paper in some of their construction, I'm not really certain where that technology is right now or how far it will go. There are other uses for pulp, biofuel, rayon, composites.

Ken

From what I can tell the paper industry will continue to suffer hard times.  In the end only the most modern and efficient mills will survive.  It may be different in many other areas but here on the east coast the vast majority of our mills were built 50-100 years ago.  Although they have made investments they still can not compete in a "he with the lowest finished cost" global environment.  For this entire summer many operations have been leaving all softwood pulpwood in the woods due to depressed markets and prices.

There will be new uses for low grade wood.  Although I do not know what these new products will be I am sure they will be things we would have never considered only a short time ago.  The sites of some of these antiquated pulp mills could make great sites for these new operations.  Much of the infrastructure may already be in place.

On a brighter note it seems that the price for softwood lumber has been pushing higher and higher.  Hopefully some of those profits get directed to the guys at the stump.
Lots of toys for working in the bush

shelbycharger400

Seems to be its been hard to even find anyone who wants the pine pulp.
They dont even want it for firewood.  I have talked to 3 different loggers they all say the same thing. Pulp sitting in the woods, dosn't even pay to haul it. LOTS of it too.

Corley5

The guy that works for me was complaining the other morning about the quality of paper bags at the local gas station/party store/coffee stop and wished they'd just change to plastic  ::) >:( >:(.  I reminded him what profession currently employs him and told him I didn't want to hear that from him again.  Support a logger ask for paper  :) :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

barbender

Maybe the industry needs to capitalize on the public's desire to be "green", demanding paper bags versus plastic, etc. At the end of the day I don't know whether a paper bag or plastic makes much difference ecologicaly, but a lot of the other stuff being sold as "green" is very questionable. I know that trees are renewable anyways.
Too many irons in the fire

thecfarm

I grew up in a paper mill town. "The Mill" was always there,but now I wonder. IP,in Jay,ME at that time built a brand new mill back in the early 60's. As Ken said 50 years ago. That mill is hanging on,but I wonder about it. There is one up in Rumford,ME, I have no idea who owns that now. They closed a few times,but keep going. there is alot of doing it someplace else better,quicker,faster,cheaper.IMO
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

snowstorm

Quote from: thecfarm on December 16, 2012, 10:17:45 PM
I grew up in a paper mill town. "The Mill" was always there,but now I wonder. IP,in Jay,ME at that time built a brand new mill back in the early 60's. As Ken said 50 years ago. That mill is hanging on,but I wonder about it. There is one up in Rumford,ME, I have no idea who owns that now. They closed a few times,but keep going. there is alot of doing it someplace else better,quicker,faster,cheaper.IMO
verso isnt going anywhere. it used to be the IP. new page is in rumford

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Corley5 on December 16, 2012, 08:27:27 PM
The guy that works for me was complaining the other morning about the quality of paper bags at the local gas station/party store/coffee stop and wished they'd just change to plastic 

When they went from paper to plastic bags they said plastic would hold up better and not bust open to leave your groceries on the floor. Man was that ever a lie. I also question how plastics are more environmentally friendly blowing around at the edges of landfills, shopping centres, back street alleys and airports. Usually caught in the wind by the trees and brush.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

thecfarm

 When I was living in Jay,that town gave IP a good tax break to do a paper machine upgrade. If Jay did not give them the break,IP would of done it at another mill. It's all about the money now. The big guys want a certain return on thier money and they will get it,or close up and move on. I never thought the paper industry would be the way it is in Maine. I knew that was Verso in Jay. Drive by the turn off 3 to 5 days a week.Rumford is about 45 minutes from me and I don't keep up so much up there. My Father worked at the mill for 25 years,I think.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ron Scott

NEW(ER) USES OF WOOD TO GRADUALLY TAKE UP SLACK FROM PAPER DECLINE?

http://www.startribune.com/business/182921411.html
~Ron

SwampDonkey

Aditya Birla owns the local mill and rayon is the product they produce. The company is also ranked first in the production of viscose staple fibre textiles, worldwide. Everyone needs clothes, and I know rayon feels nice. It doesn't make good towels like cotton, but makes good dish rags. I use rayon dish rags all the time. I've yet to weave with it, but I know on the weaving forums lots of folks use it all the time. It's the one mill around that I see hiring new staff everyone once in awhile. Currently they are hiring an operations manager for the woodlands.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Dom

Quote from: Woodhog on December 15, 2012, 12:29:49 PM
Our province ( Nova Scotia) recently bought our paper mill's assets for $1.00 (CDN).

The mill, the woodlands (543,000) acres, wood generated power plant, shipping docks etc.

One of the conditions of the sale was they will never use the facility to produce paper again.

It looks like the woodlands may be managed under the Community Forests system. It is 4 % of our whole province land mass.

The mill facility is going to be turned into an experimental base for value added products made from
cellulose.

Quite an exciting project for sure, so they think there is life after paper....

The other trade off was that the government got the liabilities for the pension, which is currently underfunded at 118 Million or some sort. So the $1 figure will end up costing us alot more in the future. With that being said, I think its good that NS bought back the woodlands. Hopefully it will be properly managed for future generations.

The mill in Port Hawkebury also received provincial funding, approx $30 M if memory serves me right.

I'm not too crazy about our governments tactics to fund the private industries, as its often a short term gain only. There are many entrepreneurs in the area that would need funding to begin their business and they want to do it in NS, yet our government is more keen to fund multi nationals who'll quickly move out if there are greener pastures.

When all the smaller mills were closing in Canada in the late 2000's, the same number of mills were opening in South Africa and South America.

Right now the paper industry is being revamped, and it will take time and effort for things to stabilize.


Dom

Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 19, 2012, 05:30:22 AM
Aditya Birla owns the local mill and rayon is the product they produce. The company is also ranked first in the production of viscose staple fibre textiles, worldwide. Everyone needs clothes, and I know rayon feels nice. It doesn't make good towels like cotton, but makes good dish rags. I use rayon dish rags all the time. I've yet to weave with it, but I know on the weaving forums lots of folks use it all the time. It's the one mill around that I see hiring new staff everyone once in awhile. Currently they are hiring an operations manager for the woodlands.

That's good to hear.

Jamie_C

Quote from: Dom on December 19, 2012, 08:54:08 AM
Quote from: Woodhog on December 15, 2012, 12:29:49 PM
Our province ( Nova Scotia) recently bought our paper mill's assets for $1.00 (CDN).

The mill, the woodlands (543,000) acres, wood generated power plant, shipping docks etc.

One of the conditions of the sale was they will never use the facility to produce paper again.

It looks like the woodlands may be managed under the Community Forests system. It is 4 % of our whole province land mass.

The mill facility is going to be turned into an experimental base for value added products made from
cellulose.

Quite an exciting project for sure, so they think there is life after paper....

The other trade off was that the government got the liabilities for the pension, which is currently underfunded at 118 Million or some sort. So the $1 figure will end up costing us alot more in the future. With that being said, I think its good that NS bought back the woodlands. Hopefully it will be properly managed for future generations.

The mill in Port Hawkebury also received provincial funding, approx $30 M if memory serves me right.

I'm not too crazy about our governments tactics to fund the private industries, as its often a short term gain only. There are many entrepreneurs in the area that would need funding to begin their business and they want to do it in NS, yet our government is more keen to fund multi nationals who'll quickly move out if there are greener pastures.

When all the smaller mills were closing in Canada in the late 2000's, the same number of mills were opening in South Africa and South America.

Right now the paper industry is being revamped, and it will take time and effort for things to stabilize.

It's closer to $130 million given to Stearn Partners so they could purchase the mill in Port Hawksbury for $30 million ... Only the government could make sense of that kind of deal.

SwampDonkey

The Irvings generate some power. The NB government buys it at 7.5 cents a KW and sells it back to the Irvings for 4.5 cents. Can't be any more convoluted than that. Good way to attempt to cover up subsidies. Guess what they use the power for? the pulp mill. ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

captain_crunch

Hang in there paper may come back yet. Been told Air Lines cant dump plastic off planes in Eroupe have to haul it home. but wooden spoons and paper are compostable and can be dumped there
M-14 Belsaw circle mill,HD-11 Log Loader,TD-14 Crawler,TD-9 Crawler and Ford 2910 Loader Tractor

thecfarm

Knowing how some companies are they save $5 per trip to use plastic,but it cost them $15 to handle it 2-3 times.  :-\
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

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