iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

404 Saw Chain

Started by joe_indi, December 13, 2012, 06:27:58 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

joe_indi

I know, I know, this is like asking whether the earth is round or flat, but I want to know for certain.
Is there any way that a 404 chain can be run on a MS 460?
I did try it years ago when the 460 was still a 046, without much success because the engine was smoking.
But, has anybody else tried it successfully?
Joe

AdkStihl

Yes it can be done.
You'll have to change your sprocket rim and your bar
Depending on bar length, it may not like it too much though.
And why was your 046 smoking?

EDIT:  Instead of running full comp, you could always try half or full skip.
          But why not just run 3/8 ?
          .404 isnt all that common around here although thats what I run on my 08  ;)
J.Miller Photography

joe_indi

Quote from: AdkStihl on December 13, 2012, 08:38:32 AM
Yes it can be done.
You'll have to change your sprocket rim and your bar
Depending on bar length, it may not like it too much though.
And why was your 046 smoking?
Yes, I changed the Rim sprocket and bar to those for the 404.
The shortest  404 bar with a sprocket nose was 20".
I also tried a 16" solid nose bar.
With both the 046 was overheating, from weight of the chain?
I dont know.
I did not risk a try  in wood because I didn't want to risk damage to the powerhead.
After several years I am thinking of another attempt and I am looking for some possible pointers.
The economics of all this is that an 18" 3/8 chisel full comp (Stihl) has an output of 200 metric tons on a MS460.
On the other hand a 404 chisel full comp (Stihl) on a MS 660 has an output of a little less than 500 metric tons, but it is a bit slower.
We dont sell too many 660s, but 460s,. and now the 461s are the favorite saws of the local 'professionals'.
So, I was thinking of the 404 as an option( more wood for less chain)
Joe

sawguy21

You could also install a 404 nose on a shorter bar but I agree, the chain is pretty aggressive for a 460. It was used on the high torque slow revving saws of an earlier era. Even here on the west coast we don't see much demand for it except for harvester chain.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

lumberjack48

I had a couple 044's, i see no reason why it wouldn't pull a 404 with a little turn of the high jet. I would run it on a 16" bar, something wasn't right, to cause a 404 to pull that hard to cause the saw to over heat. A 404 shouldn't be to aggressive on less its filed that way.

I all so had a 08 Stihl with a 404, then the 08S came out, it had a 3/8.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Clam77

I'm gonna agree with Lumberjack - the 460/461 has more than enough power to pull a 404 chain on a shorter bar like that.  Might be a lil different if you tried it on say a 28 or 32" bar.... 
Andy

Stihl 009, 028, 038, 041, MS362
Mac 1-40, 3-25

joe_indi

Okay,
Maybe I got to try it once more.
On the 16" bar first.
As  safety measures I think I will do a couple of things:
1. Decrease the compression by replacing the standard 0.3mm cylinder gasket with the  Brazilian 0.8mm Lo Comp one
2. Make the high speed circuit potentially richer with a 0.74 jet in place of the standard 0.68 jet
3.Raise the percentage of 2 Stroke.
4. Replace the standard   oil pump with the one with the higher feed rate .Possibly the larger 404 chain needs lubrication that the standard pump cannot supply.

Any other suggestions anyone?
Joe


lumberjack48

I don't think any of this would have to be done, if saw is run in its power ban, oiler working the way it should, tank of gas to tank of oil. 16" to 20" sprocket nose 404 bar, same gauge as chain. And a 404 pitch sprocket on saw, if everything is matched up, there should be no problem.

In the 60's when they started running 3/8 a lot of the old timers didn't like it, they put 404 on their saws. When the 08S had the 3/8, they wanted 404. The 3/8 on the 08 turned it into a productive saw. I bought a new 08S in 1965, i believe its the smoothest saw i ever run. It wasn't the best handling saw, but it idled and ran as smooth as a Ford flathead V8.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Clam77

Yeah - I wouldn't change a thing. 

I'd sooner think your powerhead is smoking for some other reason - too much oil in the mix... cab adjusted too lean (which would explain the overheating)...  maybe starting to suck bar oil into the crankcase through the crank seal (which would explain the overheating AND smoking).

Try your setup on a brand new saw (or the newest one you have) and see how it handles it - could be your other older saws are in need of repair soon.
Andy

Stihl 009, 028, 038, 041, MS362
Mac 1-40, 3-25

AdkStihl

Quote from: joe_indi on December 13, 2012, 10:35:14 PM
Okay,
Maybe I got to try it once more.
On the 16" bar first.
As  safety measures I think I will do a couple of things:

1. Decrease the compression by replacing the standard 0.3mm cylinder gasket with the  Brazilian 0.8mm Lo Comp one........For what....you want less torque??

2. Make the high speed circuit potentially richer with a 0.74 jet in place of the standard 0.68 jet.......whats wrong with just tuning as is?

3.Raise the percentage of 2 Stroke.....40:1-50:1 with a quality synthetic is absolutely fine

4. Replace the standard   oil pump with the one with the higher feed rate .Possibly the larger 404 chain needs lubrication that the standard pump cannot supply.......Oiler = $69......parts to convert your existing oiler to a HO oiler = $39 (Control bolt & piston)


Any other suggestions anyone?
Joe
J.Miller Photography

Al_Smith

Well now I'm not so sure once you look at the big picture if there is any cost savings if you consider every thing .

First you have to replace the bar and rim sprocket then if Stihl chain is like Oregon it will cost about twice as much money for .404 as opposed to 3/8" .Since the Chinese had the bright idea to capture the market on scrap steel the price has really increased on everything made of steel .

Now that hard as a rock Stihl chain without a doubt would last longer than most others and the price reflects that .

lumberjack48

You can buy a 36" bar,  404 pitch,  63 gauge, sprocket nose,  Stihl shows, 038 and up well run this bar.

Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

HolmenTree

Quote from: joe_indi on December 13, 2012, 09:09:13 AM
The economics of all this is that an 18" 3/8 chisel full comp (Stihl) has an output of 200 metric tons on a MS460.
On the other hand a 404 chisel full comp (Stihl) on a MS 660 has an output of a little less than 500 metric tons, but it is a bit slower.
So, I was thinking of the 404 as an option( more wood for less chain)
Joe
Joe, good reasoning....heavier chain makes less stretching, longer cutters for more filing life, better edge holding , just more endurance lets say.
Unless you cut in very tough conditions I would recommend 3/8 for normal conditions. The smallest saw I ran .404 on was an 066 Mag-28". Fits that saw real nice.  But now a MS460 with not much more power if not even with my strong running early 10mm 044, I wouldn't.
Use the 3/8, cut your wood faster, get the job done earlier making room for more work $.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Ironwood

I didnt know that 404 is becoming less common (around here a least) my pro shop locally said he doesnt keep too much on hand. I had him make me up 6 loops for my 394's which was the last of his coil. I may just get a coil of my own here. I dont go thru that much chain, but with all the "weather" we are having I want have "my guns loaded". I felt a little behind the eightball as I was out putting up 600 gallons of drinking water, sharpening my saws, and putting on the snow plow (BIG flakes), and getting gensets up to snuff before Sandy made landfall. I was low on synthetic mix oil as well. This was at midnight mind you, and I thought I wanna keep a bit more stock around.


Ironwood 
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

joe_indi

Well, it is a 'no go'.
The 460 just cannot run the heavier 404.And, the bigger cutters, well within 20 minutes the powerhead nearly burned out.
Holmen, another reason for this foolhardy experiment was that the 46RS (Stihl Full Chisel 404 ) is the only existing old fashioned Rapid Super available.
The one chain that comes close to the old RS is the RSK, but it too ll lacks that last bit of "something".
The current RSC is smoother in use but lacks the speed of the old RS.That was why I wanted to somehow use the 46RS on a 460, which is the most used pro saw here.
Mind you, I am speaking from a 'Rubber cutting' perspective.Things may a whole lot different elsewhere.
Joe

HolmenTree

Joe, yes the new Comfort chains cut a little differently from the old models, same with Oregon's Anti-Vibe, tipping the cutters back a little might make them cut a little smoother but cutting effiency is downplayed a bit.
I have about 30 feet of Oregon 50 AL .404 chisel bit [.050 square ground chisel .404] left from an old 100ft roll.
I was running it on my 066 up until a few years ago for tree work, then stopped using it realizing this stuff is no longer available ever and it's worth alot more to a collector or for timbersports in my case.

Don't write off the MS460- .404 , the trouble is in the drive sprocket "gearing", try and get a 6 T- .404 rim sprocket made, you guys in India are great metal fabricators and machinists. A 6 T .404 would be close to the gearing of a 7T 3/8.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

lumberjack48

Quote from: lumberjack48 on December 18, 2012, 07:25:41 PM
You can buy a 36" bar,  404 pitch,  63 gauge, sprocket nose,  Stihl shows, 038 and up well run this bar.



Don't get me wrong, i would never run a bar or chain like that.

I ran 16" bar, 3/8 chain, even on my 90 Jonsered

The thing with the 460 if rpm drops below 10k and its pulling to hard its going to get hot. The cutters pulling to much wood, if thats a full chisel i'd file it with 5/32 file, pull about a 1/8 chip.
Its not the bar and chain causing the saw to get hot, rakers a hair to low, and a little to much hook on the cutter.
The saw shouldn't lose rpm when cutting
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Ironwood

Well, if he is actually cutting "rubber" then that in and of itself is very hard on the saw. I have cut rubber mine belting here for edging and raised beds and I found only cutting with the nose to be most effective, albiet a kick back concern.

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

HolmenTree

Quote from: Ironwood on December 19, 2012, 08:29:26 PM
Well, if he is actually cutting "rubber" then that in and of itself is very hard on the saw. I have cut rubber mine belting here for edging and raised beds and I found only cutting with the nose to be most effective, albiet a kick back concern.

Ironwood
:D Not just rubber, Joe is cutting rubber trees. Saw his video a while back, good size trees and lots of sap spraying everywhere.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Al_Smith

Now that brings up a point to ponder .Having never seen a rubber tree I kind of wonder if that sap ,latex or whatever it's called is sticky causing a lot of drag on the cutting system .

Only speculation but the closest we might have might be mulberry or osage orange which has sap about like glue .

Thinking out loud if that be the case what would happen if he used 50/50 bar oil and kerosine or diesel fuel which would act like a solvent of sorts .

AdkStihl

Quote from: Al_Smith on December 20, 2012, 05:20:26 AM
Now that brings up a point to ponder .Having never seen a rubber tree I kind of wonder if that sap ,latex or whatever it's called is sticky causing a lot of drag on the cutting system .

Only speculation but the closest we might have might be mulberry or osage orange which has sap about like glue .

Thinking out loud if that be the case what would happen if he used 50/50 bar oil and kerosine or diesel fuel which would act like a solvent of sorts .

smiley_thumbsup
J.Miller Photography

Ed

When cutting wet soft trees I run full skip chain. Don't think it would work with .404 pitch on the 460, best to stay with 3/8.

Ed

Al_Smith

I've never seen or heard tell of using .404 on a 460 .However and I assume perhaps on the west coast they did use .404 on the 850 sized McCullochs which should be about the same power level .You're taking less than 1/2 a cubic inch more displacement ,about 5 ccs'

Fact just last summer I changed the .404 Windser nose for a Mac to 3/8" on a 32" bar that was originally .404 by 50 thou .Of course that sized chain is no longer available only from new old stock lying around .

Al_Smith

Another thing it might work if they used square ground chisel except then you have the problem of sharpening the danged stuff and cutting in those tropical conditions as low as the do there is almost no way to keep it out of the dirt .

Regular chisel is bad enough to unrock but square would be almost a full time job which would negate any savings I should think .

chevytaHOE5674

I have a .404 .063 32" bar that came with an 066 that I bought. That saw will pull that bar and chain combo no problem either full comp or full skip tooth chain. I've put that B/C on one of my 460's and it won't really throw chips with the full comp chain, but I can and have sawed up a bit of wood with a full skip tooth chain on the 460 with a 32" bar and it performs alright.

Can't remember what tooth sprocket I was running though.

Thank You Sponsors!