Scaling a 100 foot red oak

[ET]

This will be my first post and first question on scaling a 100 foot 4' plus dia red oak. I'm not sure how to scale the diameter at that height so to get a approx bf of potential usable lumber.  Scaling a standing tree I have never done?  Are there pitfalls I should be aware of? 

[drobertson]

If it has to go, fall it, saw it, stack the lumber, make firewood  from the limbs, and move on.

[ET]

I may have posted in wrong forum, sorry. There is no limbs up to 80 feet. Is all that footage usable other than firewood. I'm worried about tension or compression die to its height. The owners would like to know before its cut.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I may have posted in wrong forum, sorry.

E.T. Phone home....

[sealark37]

Unless the tree has center rot, you should have more than several good saw logs.  You might look up the Doyle and the International scales to determine the anticipated yield.  Initial diameter should be measured at "breast height'.  A tree this large has limited options for sawing, as most bandsaws and many circle saws will not handle the diameter.  This alone puts it in the swing saw or slabbing category.  Hours and hours of chainsaw work may make it a candidate for quartersawing.   If it is near a house, you can expect years  and years of nails, screws, eyebolts, spikes and other odd metal and other hard stuff embedded.  I would be very reserved in advising the owners what they can expect from the tree.  The whole story is not told until the lumber is stickered and the slabs are stacked.     Regards, Clark

[Ianab]

Well you can probably make an educated guess by treating it as 5 X 16ft logs. Need to get some idea on the taper, like what's the dia at 80ft where it starts branching? 36"?

Then estimate the 5 logs.
16 ft x 48" = 1936
16 ft x 45" = 1549
16 ft x 42" = 1345
16 ft x 39" = 1156
16 ft x 36" = 981
Total     =     6967 bd / ft

Adjust the numbers to suit your tree, then there is a log volume calculator in the "Tool Box" section on the lower left. There is also a "tree volume" calculator, but it doesn't go that big....

As long as the tree is straight and sound there is no reason to expect any problems (tension etc) just due to the size of the tree. The lower logs however a usually the better quality as that part of the tree shed any branches much earlier in it's life, and so has laid down much more clear wood. The upper logs will probably have old branch stubs that have only been grown over relatively recently, so you would expect those to be lower grade logs.

This doesn't address the issues of lumber quality, heart rot, getting a tree like that down without smashing it, embedded metal, or even finding a sawmill that can handle those logs.

But it's an approx estimate of how much wood there is actually standing there... 

Value? That's an open ended one. First problem will be finding someone even capable of milling it, as it's only worth what "someone" is willing to pay.  But if you decide to take it down and get it sawn, take pics. We love epic sawmilling missions like this. 

Ian

[beenthere]

Using the Forestry Forum tree volume calculator (which goes up to 40" dbh, and to 5 16-ft logs or 80+ ft) there will be around 2500 bd.ft. International scale.
There are ways to estimate the diameter at 100', but you will need to judge just how close you want your estimate to be. And Ianab gave some good leads on that.

[ET]

Thanks Ian and Clark. The tree does have a lean; not sure if natural or from Sandy, hense question about tension and compression all the way up and down.

[Ianab]

Thanks Ian and Clark. The tree does have a lean; not sure if natural or from Sandy, hense question about tension and compression all the way up and down.

If it's a recent lean, then no worries about tension, the wood has all been laid down while the tree was straight. But that indicates the tree needs to come down ASAP, or it's now likely to fall of it's own accord, possibly with little warning.

If the tree has grown on a lean, that's more likely to cause internal tension as the tree fights against gravity to hold itself upright.

Once the tree is on the ground you can judge better. If the pith is in the centre, and the growth rings concentric, then it's good. If the pith is off centre, and the growth rings oval, that indicates the tree has grown on a lean. Expect to have issues.

Ian

[ET]

Ian, thanks again. Driving tomorrow to do estimate; with what I've learned I believe I should be able to at least express to the owners what they may expect.   

[thecfarm]

A Lucas with a slabber attachment,going to do some sawing are we?
And welcome to the forum,been sawing long?

[ET]

Got my mill last may. Practiced on my own logs for a few months before I was ready to take on a customer. I just finished milling up 800 bf hard maple for flooring to be kiln dried and finished by a local company. I also slabbed over 400 bf for tables. Now just got this big red oak job, maybe?

[Ianab]

Ahh, I see on your sig line that you have a Lucas mill, so at least you have the larger log size taken care of.  ;D

Ian

[Magicman]

I am of no help with your question but Welcome to the Forestry Forum, ET.

[ET]

Thanks to all for the what if's regarding this giant oak. I never thought about it but will take some pics of it standing and when it comes down, whenever that will be. I'll also scale it with what I e learned and then compare to actual bf recovery. Owners are hoping for enough value to pay for tree service
Ernie

[NWP]

Welcome.  If the owners estimated the size, it may have ground shrinkage.  It will be interesting to see what you find.

[mikeb1079]

i'll second the comment about center rot.  seems thats pretty common in larger red oaks around here....

[Okrafarmer]

Thanks to all for the what if's regarding this giant oak. I never thought about it but will take some pics of it standing and when it comes down, whenever that will be. I'll also scale it with what I e learned and then compare to actual bf recovery. Owners are hoping for enough value to pay for tree service
Ernie

If the tree is solid (not rotten), and they do their homework and dry it properly, and all the tree service has to do is drop it (no buildings, power lines, etc. in the way, and they don't have to climb it or use a crane), then I would think the lumber will more than pay for the tree service charge, and your charges too. However, drying the lumber is more involved than it may seem if they are unfamiliar with the process, and then they have to either market the lumber or find uses for 2,000-6,000 bf of oak themselves. 

About the lean angle. How many degrees of lean would you say it is leaning? And don't the owners know if it's been leaning all its life or only after the storm?

[ET]

Well I discovered the diameter was 35" at DBH. 79 feet to first large branch and 39 additional feet to the top. I used the isosceles triangle trick for measurements.  I calculated the bf to be 4,110. The tree is straight until about 50 feet then slight bow then fairly straight again. Not much reduction in dia is obvious but I did reduce per Ian's suggestion. I took multiple pics but was unsuccessful in uploading through my IPhone.  I will try on my home computer this evening.  The lean must be from Sandy and previous storms. The butt log is cracked up 7 feet with single incision, looks fresh. I can see into crack maybe 1 1/2 feet and all looks solid. No rot is apparent on inspection.  Owner does not yet have date on felling.

[Ron Wenrich]

How did you estimate the height at 100'? 

There's a thing called form class.  The way its figured is they take the DBH measurement, and a diameter inside bark (DIB) measurement at 17'.  From this, they come up with a form class (FC).  The older a tree gets, the higher the FC.  A FC of 80 would mean that the DIB would be 80% of the DBH.  86 is considered a pretty high FC.  You have to consider the thickness of the bark, as well as the taper. 

So, lets say you have a FC of 90, which is really high.  The 35" DBH would convert over to 31.5" DIB at the end of your first log.  A simple formula for volume is the Doyle rule.  It is (DIB-4)^2 * Log length/16.  Since we're doing 16' logs, that would simplify to (DIB-4)^2.  A tree this size would scale just a little lower in the Doyle scale than the International scale.  The scale on the first log of the tree is 756 bf.

A 6 log would have a bit of taper as you go up the tree.  For the sake of argument, lets say its only 2" per log.  That would yield a 29.5", 27.5", 25.5", 23.5", and a 21.5" log.  Ends up being about 3100 bf.  I would also point out that a 4 log 35" tree scales about 2129 International and 2077 in Doyle and an FC of 86. 

I would also add that I have never scaled a 6 log tree in hardwoods.  I also haven't scaled any 5 log trees, although some tulip poplars on really good sites have approached that.  I've seen a few red oaks that might stretch to 4 logs.  Its easy to make mistakes in estimating height. 

[ET]

Ron,
Wow, lots to think about. I can't wait till its on the ground to really see what it yields. And yes it will need a crane; the owners neighbors garage is in its way because of the lean. This is a big one. I'm really looking forward to getting my saw blade into it!

[beenthere]

Don't get caught footing the bill for taking the tree down. No promises that the wood is worth anything, and get your sawing costs out of the deal....unless this is a donation to the friend.

[SwampDonkey]

Seems quite a difference between 4 feet and 35 inches. We hear about these home owner estimates all the time. Sometimes it's actually circumference and who knows where it was measured at. ;D We also here of all the home owners wanting to use the tree to pay for removal work. Sometimes a compromise can be reached to off set owner costs, but often times there is 2 or more services involved in dealing with a tree and they like to be paid. ;)

[Ianab]

Well it's only a 75% shrinkage  :D  I've heard of MUCH more.

Still a substantial tree, and sounds like a hazard if it's showing visible damage and lean (towards a target), so it needs to come down. May as well try and recover something from it. Whether the value of the timber covers the cost of the removal is debatable, but if you don't saw it, they probably have to pay someone else to cut it up and haul if off.

As the others have said, make sure who is paying for what, and just be a spectator until the logs are safely on the ground. The tree and crane company will have insurance to cover their butts if something goes wrong and it takes out the neighbours shed.

Ian

[captain_crunch]

Got to add this most mills(big ones) only buy timber delivered at mill so buying a standing tree is a pig in a poke serineio if got at 1/4 scale standing you might be ok but I would offer no more than that. Oak here abouts generally is hollow or rotten in first 15 ft

[Okrafarmer]

At least you are able to look in the crack and you don't see any rot in there, so that is a good sign. Having said that, the crack will eliminate a certain amount of lumber value from the tree, in the most valuable log. If it's a good clean, straight-line crack, though, you should be able to minimize its affect. With a crane, you have the added bonus of the fact that the pieces come down one at a time with less damage from impact. If possible, have the tree service cut the logs to the desired length with the crane picking each log off one at a time. Or give the tree cutter a maximum length and a minimum length you want, and let him use his judgment as to where to cut them, he may be more happy with that.

Somewhere on the forum, there was a thread about a guy in California who had a redwood taken down in this fashion, complete with pictures.

[ET]

I finally have some time this am to attempt to load a couple of photo's of the tree.  The first one is with my wife standing next to it and then one looking up from the base of the tree.   

  

   I hope they post.  I really appreciate all the help I've received on this project and as things progress I will continue reporting.

Ernie

[PC-Urban-Sawyer]

That's a nice size tree. It should yield up a whack of lumber...

Be Careful.

Herb

[Ron Wenrich]

If I was scaling that tree in the woods, I wouldn't scale at more than 2½ logs.  You'll lose some scale due to sweep in the upper log.  Above that, there is limb wood, which you might get a sawlog or so, but from a scaling aspect, I don't count them.  Reason being is a lot of times they come down and break on the felling. 

Urban forestry is a bit different, but the lumber in the limb wood isn't nearly as good as that in the bole.

[beenthere]

Ernie
Still not hearing what your commitment is with this tree, if anything.

Are you free and clear of any obligation to pay into the falling expense?

I only ask, as I agree with the message Ron was sending. In addition, although the pics are very small for some reason, the bowl of the tree looks loaded with surface indicators of low quality wood under the bark.

Your obligation would be important to advice given, so you don't end up holding an empty bag (or worse). ;)

[ET]

I selected "Medium" when I downloaded the pics from my phone to my e-mail account.  Next time I'll select "large" and see what happens.  I just did not want to blow something up.  I guess the modern computers and servers can handle larger files now.  Hurricane Sandy went through the Cleveland area bad and my daughters neighbor had alot of tree damage.  Their discussion with them about me resulted in getting involved and my interest in cutting this big red is only because I haven't sawn one this big yet.  I have not guaranteed anything; regardless if I get to saw this or not, it certainly has to come down.  That area lost dozens of these giants.
Ernie

[Magicman]

All of the logs should have tension issues due the the unbalanced top.  Opening the wrong face or sawing the cant through from the wrong face could result in some unstable lumber.

[ET]

Magician,
Definitely one of my original questions. With the lean, especially the upper portion, the compression and tension is certain. The lower section appears to have grown under vertical condition and later on developed the lean. Using my swing mill I do not have the ability to easily move a decent size log once its placed in the bunks. Looking at the growth rings tells a lot but I could use some direction on opening up a log if the rings are not in symmetry.
Ernie

[Magicman]

I would saw parallel to either the hump or horn side.  The lumber will then have a tendency to bow but not crook.  Sticker stacking and drying should take care of the bow.

[learner]

I can't seem to find what the hump or horn side means.  Magic could you explain this to me?  In construction terms I'm thinking you mean the crown side up, meaning the curved side of the log up.  But you say parallel.  So do you mean laying the log down on the mill so that the hump and horns are horizontal?

[Magicman]

Either the hump (crown) up or hump down.  Since the OP has a swingmill, he could easily saw with the blade vertical.  I meant with the blade in the horizontal position. 

With my bandmill, the hump or horn side would be up and I would saw the cant.

[fishpharmer]

Quoting website
http://www.tomssaw.com/cgi-bin/tutorials/viewnews.cgi?newsid1120951840,74828

of our dear friend (RIP) Tom..........

"Cutting sweeps:

A log with a sweep(bend) will provide more usable lumber if the boards are removed in the direction of the sweep, either off of the hump or the saddle.

Turn the log on its ears and take a slab off of the hump.
Turn it on its side and take a slab
Turn it on its flattened hump and remove the ears
Turn it on its last side and cut a slab
Turn the cant again and cut boards from the hump side and the ears side.

You will notice that the boards will come off with the tension lifting them. Nails will hold them down.

If you cut from the sides of the cant, then the boards will bend to the side causing a tremendous amount of "crown" and a board that can't be easily pulled into place.
This phenomenon is experienced in quarter sawing and must be delt with there."

[Okrafarmer]

If you are sawing the way Magicman and Fishfarmer recommended, it will work well. You may find it helps to mill thin lumber (4/4, for instance) if you are using that method. The thinner lumber will be easier to bend into shape, both for drying, and also after it is dry. (Compared to thicker lumber, like 8/4, milled from the same log).

There is another way to do it, and that is to lay the log down on its side (that is to say, lay the hump and ears on their side, so that the log is resting on its "side" like a banana would if you set it on a flat surface.) For this method, I would recommend short logs rather than long (8 ft. or so would be good) to minimize the effect of bowing that would be exaggerated in a longer piece. This method would work relatively well for a slabber, and you would cut wide slabs out that would be relatively stable in the horizontal plane, but would be curved sideways somewhat, though they would lie flat. These slightly curved live edge slabs can be used for furniture (table-tops, etc) or they can be cut into smaller pieces when they are dry.

I'm not sure how swing-milling dimension boards would do if you oriented the log on its side as I said. For slabbing, it would definitely work, but not sure about the smaller boards. You might run into too much tension in your vertical cuts.

As for what Ron said about not milling the upper logs from the tree, you may choose not to mill them, either due to the tension, or due to excessive knots and other defects, but  one thing he mentioned about how those logs would not be counted in a forestry-raised tree does not apply. He said (rightly so) that when a tree like that is cut down, the upper portions are usually damaged too much to mill up. But if a crane takes this tree down piece by piece, you shouldn't have to worry about that.

[Ron Wenrich]

If bucked right, that hump won't be much of a problem in the log. 

[ET]

 
Like I have mentioned many times; THANKS! to everyone that has participated in assisting in this project.  Its getting so large that I'm going to have to go back and re-read everything and take notes of those important or usable bits of information so I can actually take advantage of this knowledge base.  On a side note I spent the entire day at an auction and bought a pair of 19" log tongs, a choker cable, a spool of 3/8" wire rope, and woohoo a Ford 555B backhoe.  I could start a new post but would be interested to know if any members also have this model.

Ernie

[WmFritz]

We need pictures or can't believe you REALLY scored that backhoe :D :D

Congratulations by the way.

[thecfarm]

You might get more replys if you started a "Ford 555B backhoe" Seem like I heard Al call them a triple nickle. I guess he knows about them.

[Okrafarmer]

You might get more replys if you started a "Ford 555B backhoe" Seem like I heard Al call them a triple nickle. I guess he knows about them.

I call them the "directory assistance backhoe." Never had one. Town where I grew up had one on the payroll when I was a kid, not sure if it was a B or a later model. That backhoe was involved in more work than just about any vehicle in town. They used it hard.

[ET]

I have not check yet about which forum I would start a new thread about the 555B (photo attached).  I've been needing something like this for quite awhile around the farm, especially for moving those BBIIGG logs!  My little JD Compact can only pick-up around 600 lbs but can drag a thousand or better; anyway I'll hold off on questions until I hear where I can appropriately post. 
Ernie

 

[thecfarm]

General Board should be fine. There is a member that put a grapple on his backhoe.

[Lud]

Nice  buy on the backhoe.  What county are you in?  Northern Ohio is pretty big.  I'm in Medina County.  Good to have another Ohioan on board. 8)

[Magicman]

That is a fine looking machine.  Handling logs with a backhoe works very well because the weight on the rear acts as a good counterweight.   ;D

[ET]

Hi Lud, I'm from Sandusky County.  I just now got the 555 home from the auction site. Raining cats and dogs and wow what an ordeal. I found the general board and will start a new thread. I'm really interested in using it for log handling as well as for what it's intended for too. I just had my old 108 foot long bank barn torn down by a barn reclamation company but now I need to move tons of rocks, boulders, and hundreds of yards of dirt to make way for a new barn; reason for getting the hoe.

[learner]

General Board should be fine. There is a member that put a grapple on his backhoe.

:D It's funny you should say that.  We just picked up a used prentice grapple that we're thinking about putting on our other backhoe.  This poor gal is about ready for retirement.



 

[Okrafarmer]

I had a neighbor who put a grapple on a backhoe up in Maine in the '80s. He was a firewood logger, and used it load split firewood into his dump truck to deliver.

[Ron Wenrich]

We used to load split wood into open top trailers with Prentice loaders.  Put two loaders next to the truck and it was done in about 10-15 minutes. 

[Okrafarmer]

The fellow I mentioned who put the grapple on his backhoe, a few years later he built his own firewood processor and gained even greater efficiency.