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Scaling a 100 foot red oak

Started by ET, December 05, 2012, 06:39:06 PM

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ET

This will be my first post and first question on scaling a 100 foot 4' plus dia red oak. I'm not sure how to scale the diameter at that height so to get a approx bf of potential usable lumber.  Scaling a standing tree I have never done?  Are there pitfalls I should be aware of? 
Lucas 1030, Slabber attachment, Husky 550XP, Ford 555B hoe, Blaze King Ultra, Vermeer chipper, 70 acres with 40 acres Woods.

drobertson

If it has to go, fall it, saw it, stack the lumber, make firewood  from the limbs, and move on.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

ET

I may have posted in wrong forum, sorry. There is no limbs up to 80 feet. Is all that footage usable other than firewood. I'm worried about tension or compression die to its height. The owners would like to know before its cut.
Lucas 1030, Slabber attachment, Husky 550XP, Ford 555B hoe, Blaze King Ultra, Vermeer chipper, 70 acres with 40 acres Woods.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

sealark37

Unless the tree has center rot, you should have more than several good saw logs.  You might look up the Doyle and the International scales to determine the anticipated yield.  Initial diameter should be measured at "breast height'.  A tree this large has limited options for sawing, as most bandsaws and many circle saws will not handle the diameter.  This alone puts it in the swing saw or slabbing category.  Hours and hours of chainsaw work may make it a candidate for quartersawing.   If it is near a house, you can expect years  and years of nails, screws, eyebolts, spikes and other odd metal and other hard stuff embedded.  I would be very reserved in advising the owners what they can expect from the tree.  The whole story is not told until the lumber is stickered and the slabs are stacked.     Regards, Clark

Ianab

Well you can probably make an educated guess by treating it as 5 X 16ft logs. Need to get some idea on the taper, like what's the dia at 80ft where it starts branching? 36"?

Then estimate the 5 logs.
16 ft x 48" = 1936
16 ft x 45" = 1549
16 ft x 42" = 1345
16 ft x 39" = 1156
16 ft x 36" = 981
Total     =     6967 bd / ft

Adjust the numbers to suit your tree, then there is a log volume calculator in the "Tool Box" section on the lower left. There is also a "tree volume" calculator, but it doesn't go that big....

As long as the tree is straight and sound there is no reason to expect any problems (tension etc) just due to the size of the tree. The lower logs however a usually the better quality as that part of the tree shed any branches much earlier in it's life, and so has laid down much more clear wood. The upper logs will probably have old branch stubs that have only been grown over relatively recently, so you would expect those to be lower grade logs.

This doesn't address the issues of lumber quality, heart rot, getting a tree like that down without smashing it, embedded metal, or even finding a sawmill that can handle those logs.

But it's an approx estimate of how much wood there is actually standing there... 

Value? That's an open ended one. First problem will be finding someone even capable of milling it, as it's only worth what "someone" is willing to pay.  But if you decide to take it down and get it sawn, take pics. We love epic sawmilling missions like this.  :)

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

beenthere

Using the Forestry Forum tree volume calculator (which goes up to 40" dbh, and to 5 16-ft logs or 80+ ft) there will be around 2500 bd.ft. International scale.
There are ways to estimate the diameter at 100', but you will need to judge just how close you want your estimate to be. And Ianab gave some good leads on that.
south central Wisconsin
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ET

Thanks Ian and Clark. The tree does have a lean; not sure if natural or from Sandy, hense question about tension and compression all the way up and down.
Lucas 1030, Slabber attachment, Husky 550XP, Ford 555B hoe, Blaze King Ultra, Vermeer chipper, 70 acres with 40 acres Woods.

Ianab

Quote from: ET on December 05, 2012, 08:23:52 PM
Thanks Ian and Clark. The tree does have a lean; not sure if natural or from Sandy, hense question about tension and compression all the way up and down.

If it's a recent lean, then no worries about tension, the wood has all been laid down while the tree was straight. But that indicates the tree needs to come down ASAP, or it's now likely to fall of it's own accord, possibly with little warning.

If the tree has grown on a lean, that's more likely to cause internal tension as the tree fights against gravity to hold itself upright.

Once the tree is on the ground you can judge better. If the pith is in the centre, and the growth rings concentric, then it's good. If the pith is off centre, and the growth rings oval, that indicates the tree has grown on a lean. Expect to have issues.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

ET

Ian, thanks again. Driving tomorrow to do estimate; with what I've learned I believe I should be able to at least express to the owners what they may expect.   
Lucas 1030, Slabber attachment, Husky 550XP, Ford 555B hoe, Blaze King Ultra, Vermeer chipper, 70 acres with 40 acres Woods.

thecfarm

A Lucas with a slabber attachment,going to do some sawing are we?
And welcome to the forum,been sawing long?
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ET

Got my mill last may. Practiced on my own logs for a few months before I was ready to take on a customer. I just finished milling up 800 bf hard maple for flooring to be kiln dried and finished by a local company. I also slabbed over 400 bf for tables. Now just got this big red oak job, maybe?
Lucas 1030, Slabber attachment, Husky 550XP, Ford 555B hoe, Blaze King Ultra, Vermeer chipper, 70 acres with 40 acres Woods.

Ianab

Ahh, I see on your sig line that you have a Lucas mill, so at least you have the larger log size taken care of.  ;D

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Magicman

I am of no help with your question but Welcome to the Forestry Forum, ET.
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ET

Thanks to all for the what if's regarding this giant oak. I never thought about it but will take some pics of it standing and when it comes down, whenever that will be. I'll also scale it with what I e learned and then compare to actual bf recovery. Owners are hoping for enough value to pay for tree service
Ernie
Lucas 1030, Slabber attachment, Husky 550XP, Ford 555B hoe, Blaze King Ultra, Vermeer chipper, 70 acres with 40 acres Woods.

NWP

Welcome.  If the owners estimated the size, it may have ground shrinkage.  It will be interesting to see what you find.
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mikeb1079

i'll second the comment about center rot.  seems thats pretty common in larger red oaks around here....
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Okrafarmer

Quote from: ET on December 05, 2012, 10:14:38 PM
Thanks to all for the what if's regarding this giant oak. I never thought about it but will take some pics of it standing and when it comes down, whenever that will be. I'll also scale it with what I e learned and then compare to actual bf recovery. Owners are hoping for enough value to pay for tree service
Ernie

If the tree is solid (not rotten), and they do their homework and dry it properly, and all the tree service has to do is drop it (no buildings, power lines, etc. in the way, and they don't have to climb it or use a crane), then I would think the lumber will more than pay for the tree service charge, and your charges too. However, drying the lumber is more involved than it may seem if they are unfamiliar with the process, and then they have to either market the lumber or find uses for 2,000-6,000 bf of oak themselves.  :o

About the lean angle. How many degrees of lean would you say it is leaning? And don't the owners know if it's been leaning all its life or only after the storm?
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ET

Well I discovered the diameter was 35" at DBH. 79 feet to first large branch and 39 additional feet to the top. I used the isosceles triangle trick for measurements.  I calculated the bf to be 4,110. The tree is straight until about 50 feet then slight bow then fairly straight again. Not much reduction in dia is obvious but I did reduce per Ian's suggestion. I took multiple pics but was unsuccessful in uploading through my IPhone.  I will try on my home computer this evening.  The lean must be from Sandy and previous storms. The butt log is cracked up 7 feet with single incision, looks fresh. I can see into crack maybe 1 1/2 feet and all looks solid. No rot is apparent on inspection.  Owner does not yet have date on felling.
Lucas 1030, Slabber attachment, Husky 550XP, Ford 555B hoe, Blaze King Ultra, Vermeer chipper, 70 acres with 40 acres Woods.

Ron Wenrich

How did you estimate the height at 100'? 

There's a thing called form class.  The way its figured is they take the DBH measurement, and a diameter inside bark (DIB) measurement at 17'.  From this, they come up with a form class (FC).  The older a tree gets, the higher the FC.  A FC of 80 would mean that the DIB would be 80% of the DBH.  86 is considered a pretty high FC.  You have to consider the thickness of the bark, as well as the taper. 

So, lets say you have a FC of 90, which is really high.  The 35" DBH would convert over to 31.5" DIB at the end of your first log.  A simple formula for volume is the Doyle rule.  It is (DIB-4)^2 * Log length/16.  Since we're doing 16' logs, that would simplify to (DIB-4)^2.  A tree this size would scale just a little lower in the Doyle scale than the International scale.  The scale on the first log of the tree is 756 bf.

A 6 log would have a bit of taper as you go up the tree.  For the sake of argument, lets say its only 2" per log.  That would yield a 29.5", 27.5", 25.5", 23.5", and a 21.5" log.  Ends up being about 3100 bf.  I would also point out that a 4 log 35" tree scales about 2129 International and 2077 in Doyle and an FC of 86. 

I would also add that I have never scaled a 6 log tree in hardwoods.  I also haven't scaled any 5 log trees, although some tulip poplars on really good sites have approached that.  I've seen a few red oaks that might stretch to 4 logs.  Its easy to make mistakes in estimating height. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

ET

Ron,
Wow, lots to think about. I can't wait till its on the ground to really see what it yields. And yes it will need a crane; the owners neighbors garage is in its way because of the lean. This is a big one. I'm really looking forward to getting my saw blade into it!
Lucas 1030, Slabber attachment, Husky 550XP, Ford 555B hoe, Blaze King Ultra, Vermeer chipper, 70 acres with 40 acres Woods.

beenthere

Don't get caught footing the bill for taking the tree down. No promises that the wood is worth anything, and get your sawing costs out of the deal....unless this is a donation to the friend.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

Seems quite a difference between 4 feet and 35 inches. We hear about these home owner estimates all the time. Sometimes it's actually circumference and who knows where it was measured at. ;D We also here of all the home owners wanting to use the tree to pay for removal work. Sometimes a compromise can be reached to off set owner costs, but often times there is 2 or more services involved in dealing with a tree and they like to be paid. ;)
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Ianab

Well it's only a 75% shrinkage  :D  I've heard of MUCH more.

Still a substantial tree, and sounds like a hazard if it's showing visible damage and lean (towards a target), so it needs to come down. May as well try and recover something from it. Whether the value of the timber covers the cost of the removal is debatable, but if you don't saw it, they probably have to pay someone else to cut it up and haul if off.

As the others have said, make sure who is paying for what, and just be a spectator until the logs are safely on the ground. The tree and crane company will have insurance to cover their butts if something goes wrong and it takes out the neighbours shed.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

captain_crunch

Got to add this most mills(big ones) only buy timber delivered at mill so buying a standing tree is a pig in a poke serineio if got at 1/4 scale standing you might be ok but I would offer no more than that. Oak here abouts generally is hollow or rotten in first 15 ft
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