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Is a 16" Makita Circular saw worth it?

Started by VictorH, December 04, 2012, 12:16:36 AM

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VictorH

Are these that useful in timber framing?  I can pick one up for $225 and 4 hours driving.  I'm about to receive my plan packet from Jim and just was curious if this worth it?  I already have a Prazi beam cutter but presume the Makita will give a cleaner cut.

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Victor,

With a quality blade, they have become a "must have," tool in most production shops.  I spent years without buying one, (stubborn I guess,) now we have 6 in one shop on some days because we all own one or two per person.  Once you get use to their weight a "gyro" effect, they are really handy to have.

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Ironwood

I was slightly disappointed in the power, but they are the only affordable option out there. I had to laugh on the Gyro comment, yeah that is for sure. Be sure to smell the motor, several I have seen the motor was on it's last legs from running a dull blade or just abuse. I do have a Milwaukee 10" circular and it is a "horse", that thing will wear you down. I suppose if Makita built it HEAVY you couldn't even lift it. Trade offs I suppose.  Thin kerf Teflon (red?) blade would be very helpful.  Good luck

Ironwood
There is no scarcity of opportunity to make a living at what you love to do, there is only scarcity of resolve to make it happen.- Wayne Dyer

Satamax

Can you get the 5143R in the us?  That one is nice. Beter than the old 16, a little trade of in depth of cut. But it's nicer.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Jay C. White Cloud

There are "huge" saws in the overseas market, some are "two man," and must be used on rails to be effective.  The overseas arena is much more supportive of large timber construction, than what we see here in the States.  In Japan alone you can choose between three different "chisel mortisers" for timber framing and at least a dozen different "chain slotter/mortisers," not to mention a 400 mm (16") planner that weights less than Makita's 300 mm (12") one from here in the states.  They even have a hand held, 90 degree planner for making timbers "perfectly" square, and several companies will custom build whatever you can dream up.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Brian_Weekley

e aho laula

logman

I use my 10 1/4 Bigfoot saw a lot more than my 16.  I only use my 16 to cut something off that doesn't show.
LT40HD, 12' ext, 5105 JD tractor, Genie GTH5519 telehandler
M&K Timber Works

VictorH

Thx everyone.  I will have to see if it is still  available when I can go get it.

canopy

Quote from: Brian_Weekley on December 04, 2012, 07:19:03 AM
My hand saw works great!
I learned timber framing using a hand saw and prefer it. The advantage of a hand saw is when laying out with square rule you can't use a fixed depth cut on the non-reference sides. This is transparent when using a hand saw. If taught correctly, you can make  accurate cuts with a hand saw no matter the size of the timber.

Wind_Knot

Once you get a taste of using a Mafell, you will never go back. Expensive but imho, worth every penny.   ;D
"The things I make may be for others, but how I make them is for me."

Jay C. White Cloud

I like, and use Japanese "willow leaf" saws all the time, but when you have to make literally hundreds cuts in a long day of a production timber wright shop, power saws (chain, circle, you name it,) and the skill to use them has to be part of the equation.

Respectfully,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Brian_Weekley

It really depends on what you're doing.  Are you cutting frames for a living where speed is essential to meet timelines and make money or are you cutting a frame or two for yourself?  If it's the latter, I would argue that a sharp hand saw is more than adequate.  The big Makitas are heavy and LOUD.  Big power saws can make big mistakes in a big hurry.  Hand saws allow you to concentrate and focus on the joint you're cutting.  This is especially beneficial for novices.  Personally, I have a far greater appreciation for artisans that use the type of tools that have been around for centuries rather than the modern, power-driven equivalents.  I also find a much greater personal satisfaction and pride in my work when I choose to use hand tools.  Not to mention they don't bother my neighbors!
e aho laula

giant splinter

I have two Makita 16" beam saws, the oldest is slower and less powerful and can get awkward under some conditions on the other hand the latest model is very powerful and accurate....both will cut through a full 6" beam and can be used in any job site or shop situation rip or crosscut requiring a 6" depth of cut. I plan on buying an after-market saw base to help the newer one in the rafter cutting angles and accuracy. With a good / sharp blade they saw true and clean but these saws must be used with care and properly guided through a deep cut or they can drift off your layout.
My recommendation is to find a clean used late model "blue plastic" on the handle rather than the older gold colored metal style. You can then set it up to cut @ 6" depths in any situation with one pass, saving time and layout as well as not having to roll a beam to get through the cut. I also agree with Brian Weekley, handsaws will work every time and cost far less.
roll with it

Jay C. White Cloud

As a commercial, as well as, historical/educational timber wright I can't stress what Brian shared more.  I have seen this kind of conversation turn very opinionated on hand vs. power.  Both camps have valid points, but often it turns into, "you aren't authentic unless you use hand tools only," or "your not realistic if you think power tools wouldn't have been used, if they had them."  Both are academic, and have been discussed  ad nauseam  , (I know, I've been at the center of a few.)

I can often nip it in the bud by sharing this.  If you are doing this for personnel enjoyment, or are new to the craft, I can't stress enough the importance of using hand tools ONLY! (or very limited power,) as your errors in wood (and flesh) will be mitigated.  (Note professional Japanese hand saws are dangerous enough as they can take a finger of in less than a full stroke!!!)  If you are proficient with hand tools, you can cut a frame almost as fast as someone using power tools, (in some cases, faster.) 

Power tools have there place, but it is not where many folks think that place is.  I won't allow a novice, (someone new to timber framing and "big tools"), use them until I have seen them operate small tools and prove proficient with hand tools and there care, (including all the plane types and sharpening them).  I don't care if they have been a "contractor for 20 years," as I often hear.  Unless they have spent the money to buy the tools, they aren't using mine without demonstrating a solid hand tool foundation.  Brian is spot on with his advice, these tools are more often than not, reached for by people that really should not be using them, (yet.)

Respectfully submitted,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

VictorH

Thanks for all the feedback.  It was good to know about the noise factor and that the newer blue body is better the the older gold ones.  I also get the hand power vs machine nuance.  I enjoy using both.  Since no one has been - oh you've got to get that, I'll put the $$ elsewhere.  Appreciate everyone's input.

Victor

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Victor,

I think you have made a good choice.  A chainsaw was my only "big" power tool for my personnel timber framing for over 15 years, (none with the Amish, of course.)  A nice 500 mm (15") "willow" leaf saw is pretty nice, or perhaps something else you've had your eye on.  Good luck

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Jim_Rogers

I can say I own one of the older gold colored ones. I bought it used from the Home Depot tool rental department. Many years ago. I do use it when I need it.

Is it a "must have" tool, probably not, but it nice to have and use.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

frwinks

I also have the older gold version of this saw which I got from a good friend who owned it for a number of years without using it once.  He said it scared him just sitting there, and I got it for a "thank you".
The saw definitely requires your full attention and a lot of respect ;)  but I use mine for anything over 4" and even with the stock base, it can be very accurate...as long as you're paying attention.
Even us DIY'ers need a little power help now and then ;D  I just don't see myself hand saw ripping several 20+ foot deep bevels on 12x12 stock.  At the end of the day the Missus wants her house done :D 

nas

Quote from: frwinks on December 06, 2012, 11:39:59 AM
At the end of the day the Missus wants her house done :D 
I have the same problem ;D  Maybe when I retire I can build a frame with all hand tools :)
Better to sit in silence and have everyone think me a fool, than to open my mouth and remove all doubt - Napoleon.

Indecision is the key to flexibility.
2002 WM LT40HDG25
stihl 066
Husky 365
1 wife
6 Kids

Stephen1

Quote from: Jay C. White Cloud on December 04, 2012, 02:05:23 AM
There are "huge" saws in the overseas market, some are "two man," and must be used on rails to be effective.  The overseas arena is much more supportive of large timber construction, than what we see here in the States.  In Japan alone you can choose between three different "chisel mortisers" for timber framing and at least a dozen different "chain slotter/mortisers," not to mention a 400 mm (16") planner that weights less than Makita's 300 mm (12") one from here in the states.  They even have a hand held, 90 degree planner for making timbers "perfectly" square, and several companies will custom build whatever you can dream up.

Regards,

jay
jay, why is it we do not see those tools brought over to this side of the pond?
Do we not have enough demand?
cheers,
Stephenj
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Stephen1,

First, let me say that I hope I didn't offend anyone with my comments about hand vs power tools.  If you have the drive to buy a "big" power tool, (and the $$$,) then you can afford the Dr. bills that can go with them.  Well, that sounds "snippy" too, so let me be a little self deprecating; I have hit myself with a chainsaw 4 times, (once on purpose, that's another story!), jammed a 100 mm (4") power planner with my finger, (I still have it and it works o.k.,) ran my saw mill into my boot milling some really thin stock, and the list goes on.  I try really hard to be careful, but when your doing anything a whole bunch, your odds can run out, so, the moral is do your best to be careful, these big tools "bite hard," (maybe I should go back to venom extraction work?  no, that landed me in the hospital too... ;) )

Now your question, from what I can tell there are several mitigating circumstances, one is UL listing, which seems to be a big hurdle for selling them in the states, (not buying them and bringing them in, just selling them like we see other tools.) Demand also seems to be part of it, in the way that over seas manufactures (Asian) just don't see us buying/using there product.  OSHA standards are really a pain in the "toe," (among other places,) when it comes to meddling in my rights to "maim and mangle" my body the way I choose to with some pretty awesome tools.   I also sometime get a sense of "cultural rift," between our timber working brothers and sisters over seas.  I can't really give a definitive description to that "rift," just say it is sometimes a feeling.  Not being metric also has something to do with it.  Americans have held onto the notion that "feet" and "inches" is as good as, (some feel better than,) the metric system, and take it from an American that works in metric, IT AIN'T!  The "funny numbers" on many tools coming from Asia and Europe, (like Festool,) those be millimeters my friend, you should start getting use to them if you want tools from over the "big pond."

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Brian_Weekley

Jay,

I'm intrigued by your quote:

Quote from: Jay C. White Cloud on December 07, 2012, 10:57:03 PM
and take it from an American that works in metric

I'm a huge fan of the metric system and there's nothing mysterious about it.  In my day job, I work as a scientist and everything I do at work is SI (m, g, L, deg C, etc.).  However, at home, most everything I do is Imperial based (feet, miles, gal, deg F, etc).  Is metric better?  Sure.  However, I'd be interested for you to elaborate how you use metric in a construction/timber frame field (in the US) when the trade is still Imperial-based here?  The only way this seems possible is if you're working exclusively from drawings designed in metric and cutting your own wood in metric (which is great).  Otherwise, I can't see how this would be feasible if you're restoring barns, working with local architects and their plans, or sourcing wood and products from local vendors.  It's simply not practical to convert/work metric if your structure was designed in feet/inches.  You can't just simply change a 12" beam to 300 mm, lest it affects the dimensions of all other components in the drawing.  Otherwise, what's the advantage of cutting a beam to 304.8 mm instead?

Thanks,

Brian
e aho laula

giant splinter

After reading all of the posts from the initial one through post 22, I see many great ideas and suggestions on this subject as well as may opinions on the options available to all of us that might best fit in with our preferences and work schedules. As usual some great advice has been offered to us and a few bits of insight to how things get done in the timber framing industry around the world.

Japan is a country who has some extremely complicated and remarkably beautiful joinery and uses saws that cut on the return stroke on a lay-out method that employs the metric system and conveys all this in a language that is expressed by characters rather than letters. <scratching my head> as if this method of construction framing isn't complicated enough <grin>.

I wanted to add just one thought to all of this, the metric system works very well as does the feet-inch-fractions method. In engineering and surveying a decimal foot system is in place here in the United States and a few other parts of the world. I am familiar with this method of measurement and use it on a daily basis as a project engineer working with engineered drawings that include grading pads, earthwork, railroad, pipeline, infra structure etc.

Many of you may be familiar with this method and might agree that it is just a notch easier to deal with than feet and inches and is practical for all types of building. I have found folding 6' wood rules and 25' metal tape measures that have both the scales on the face of the tape and includes feet with inches and fractions and the decimal foot with tenths and hundredths at places like Home Depot.

If you don't own a construction master or similar calculator you may find the "engineers rule" to be useful and far less expensive than a converting calculator around some of your projects. These rules are still in feet so ten feet is still ten feet in length.(" but there ain't no 10's or 11's on it") it has .1 through .9 in tenths with nine full tenths beginning at zero and terminating at 1.0' split by hundredths rather the fractions.

To express 3'-9" you would say: "three point seven five feet or 3.75'"     
So its easy and a fairly handy Gizmo.
roll with it

Stephen1

Jay, I do see your point. Festool is something I have just seen show up at Lee Valley, a local store to me. The price is quite something, definitely not in my range yet. At least not until I become a little more skilled in my work. I am a firm believer in 1st you get good then get fast, at least you can then appreciate it a fine tool. A fine tool does not make an expert, skill does.

metric is something isn't it. In the great north, I work in miles and MPH, (railroad), live and shop in metric, temperature, weight of food, but when doing construction and building back to imperial, most of the time.

In fact today I was working on my mill, (another storey) metric and imperial tools are needed. :-X
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

Jay C. White Cloud

Good Day All,

Brian, thanks for the question, observation.  Thanks for also saying "out loud," that there is nothing mysterious about it, (metric.)  I'm really shocked, most of the time, why folks are so put off by the system.  Being a scientist and living in America, you are "bi-lingual," when it comes to using both systems, (metric-imperial,) your "type" always ask the best questions, and yours has been asked many times.

Metric is better in so many ways, I couldn't begin to count them in this entry, that you are most right about. As for how it is better, simply put, it just easier that dealing with fractions and having a common standard of error, be it 1 mm for timber framing and .25 mm for furniture.  The trade here in the states has a "vale," over it, one that someone like me can see very plainly.

Take some of the major brands of tools, Makita, Hitachi, Ryobia, Bosch, Festool, the list goes on, they are all metric.  Some like Festool do not even try to hide it they simple sell only the metric version, not a "masked," American market version.  So most tools I use are metric by their nature.

I can't tell you how many architects love metric, and not just over seas.  I recently had one tell me,  "do you know why that room on the print is a strange dimensions, because of conversions from metric to imperial." I do have my own saw mill so I do cut to metric dimensions, not that I have to though.  I work with many different groups of timber framers, designers, and the like, so I just do quick conversions to metric.  Also, a lot of green rough lumber comes off the mill in metric.  One local sawyer consistently cuts his 4/4 stock to 100 mm and he doesn't even know it.

As for restoration work, it is the same thing, most "hand hewn," 8 inch post are closer to 200 mm than they are to 8".  Matter of fact a frame this last summer, a "Dutch Barn," from New York had closer whole numbers in metric than it did inches or feet through out the frame.  So restoration has never been that much of a challenge either.  A small project I had to assist with last week, a "Run-in Shed," for some rather expensive breeding cattle would come as close to a challenge as I see.  The original frame had been cut to 12 feet in width.  The client needed more room and was not happy with the original design, wanting the front to span at least 18' without any posts.  So the frame I cut that plugs into the old one, is 3658 mm by 5600 mm long.  Now remember I use "line rule" for lay out so even on the width I dealt with a whole number of 3400 mm, easy. ;D

Now your statement:

"It's simply not practical to convert/work metric if your structure was designed in feet/inches.  You can't just simply change a 12" beam to 300 mm, lest it affects the dimensions of all other components in the drawing.  Otherwise, what's the advantage of cutting a beam to 304.8 mm instead?"

I'll have to push back on that statement a bit.  It is very practical to convert.  I use metric, my tools are metric, the software is based in decimals so metric is easy there as well.  I recently had this very same discussion with some one that gave me a dimension 17' 6 5/16" or 210 5/16".  I converted it to 5342 mm, which for me is much simpler expression and not as annoying to write down and remember; 53 42 is much easier that 210 5/16" or 210.3125".

If I have a new client I do just that, covert 12" (1 foot) to the metric foot of 300 mm.  For the purpose of the design and conversation process, it works just fine. I simple listen and talk in the "generic foot." The end product is so close to the conversational design that unless the client is helping cut the frame, they do not notice, (though they get this explanation from the very beginning and it has never seemed to bother any of them.)  Most folks know metric is easy, they just don't get a chance to use it.  My students respond pretty quick to it and there only chief complaint is not getting to on other job sites. I tell them to push back and/or convert for their own peace of mind.  By the way the last 12" beam of "rough stock" I got from a local mill, (not my own,) was 301 mm, and if I had to convert, it would be 305 mm, not 304.8.  beside with "line rule," none of that matters anyway. ;) :D
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

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