Another First

[Magicman]

I get to thinking that surely I have seen about all that a customer could possible want sawed.   Not.

I had another "first" today.  The customer's "cut list" was only 14' 2X6's.  No 1" side lumber and no 2X4's....only 2X6's.  And then we got a late start.  He is a dairyman, so stuff has to be done before he can do anything else.


 
It was almost 10:00 before the first log was loaded.


 
At 2:30 the first trailer loaded with 135 pulls out.  We got about 75 more before we quit.  I only used one blade today.   I should finish the job by noon tomorrow if it doesn't rain. 

[clww]

Would this be considered an "easy day", with only one blade used?

[Magicman]

Actually when sawing framing lumber from clean SYP, 2 -3 Mbf is not unusual.  I will put a fresh blade on tomorrow AM, but this one was still going strong when it got too dark to saw.

[Sawdust Lover]

Magic man, They tell me to only run a blade for 3 to 4 hrs and then take it off the mill even if it is sharp. How can you run a blade that long and why does Timberking tell me this. I thought it was because of heat. Sounds like you can run the same blade all day.

[Chuck White]

Looks like one of those "good" jobs you've got going there, Lynn!

[Magicman]

Sawdust Lover, I can not answer any of your questions but you can rest assured that I do not run dull blades.  I used 4 Saturday, but that was sawing 1800 bf of mostly 1X12 Oak.

Today was SYP framing lumber and the Debarker was running strong.  Engine speed while sawing and as the blades exit the cant is one indication.  I regularly feel the blade teeth for sharpness and look a the outside teeth with a pocket magnifier to verify that they have not rounded any.

I have dulled blades on only one log, and then many times run all day.  It all depends upon what you are sawing and whether the logs are clean or dirty.  Sawing with dull blades greatly decreases the blade's life, and the blade's life is money.

[tyb525]

I'd listen to WM's advice, I'd say they are pretty much the pro's ;) I haven't heard anything from WM about a time limit for running a blade, if it is still sharp.

[Brucer]

As you run your blade, tiny cracks will form in the high stress areas -- usually the gullet. These will gradually grow and lead to fatigue failure. Sharpening the blade properly will remove the cracks before they can spread too far. So the theory is that if you run your blade too long between sharpenings, the cracks will go beyond the part that gets removed when sharpening.

That's the theory. If you have lots of power you can push out more board feet per blade revolution. A sharp blade has less stress on it than a dull blade so it takes longer for cracks to develop. A sharp blade will also cut more BF per revolution. Some woods cut more easily than others -- more BF per revolution.

Usually if the blade is still sharp, it won't hurt to keep sawing.

[DanG]

I think the difference may be that the standard practice on a Woodmizer is to stop the blade after each cut, rather than letting it run constantly.  I haven't seen any of the other brands doing that.

[taylorsmissbeehaven]

Great looking project MM! I was wondering if you used any type of lube/water on the blade when you cut SYP? I was wondering if a cleaner,cooler blade might last longer. Any thoughts? Thanks for the pics, Brian

[millstead]

Magic man, They tell me to only run a blade for 3 to 4 hrs and then take it off the mill even if it is sharp. How can you run a blade that long and why does Timberking tell me this. I thought it was because of heat. Sounds like you can run the same blade all day.

wood mizer told me the same thing. I was told when you run the blade for more than 4 hrs that the blade could get stress cracks in the gullets. I have run blades much longer than 4 hrs and not had any trouble. i like to use the blade until it gets dull

[isawlogs]

 I like to change the blade also when its dull, then change to a sharp one. A blade has only so many turns it will effectively do around the band wheels before breaking, ya can't get them to do any more then what fatigue will let them do. Running them for hours without resharpening only creates the possibility of micro cracks and breakage down the line, it will saw the same lumber only in less sharpenings. The time saved by running it longer when it still cuts good, is what matters at times.  ;)

[DR Buck]

Almost 3,000 bf.     That's a good day in anybody's book!    Did you mill to dimension or a full 2"x6" ?   I get a lot of calls for milling standard box store dimensions but not a lot of SYP.   Mostly with Virginia pine.

I also run a blade until it's dull.   I can usually hear it talking to me when it's time for a change.

[paul case]

Almost 3,000 bf.     That's a good day in anybody's book! 

I also run a blade until it's dull.   I can usually hear it talking to me when it's time for a change.

I usually hear me talking to me when the blade gets dull. This is what I hear.

''I sure aint cutting very fast to keep the motor from pullung down''
''Did you see the blade pop out the end of the log?''
''I ought to change the band and put on a sharp one.''
''Another one bites the dust''

Then I begin the change out that I have gotten down to 2 minutes.
PC

[drobertson]

Back to the original post, I have had some folks want just that, as you have mentioned. My response is the same, however, I do try to convey the message that a better quality will come out of the logs if allowed to take a few 1" boards off to get to the cant. If not, they get what they get.  As far as blades go, I run mine only when I am ready to enter the log.  I have had new blades break with as few as 300 ft sawn, and have had blades that have been sharpened as many as 6 times that cut over 2100 feet.  Every sawyer knows how the blade is cutting and makes the change when needed. Now, I have tried at times to push the limits, but never when the blade is just cutting like crapola.  Pine will getcha, because it typically does cut so good.  As mentioned in the past, some blades will give up the ghost on certain logs, and then cut without resharping on other logs. 

[Magicman]

redbeard has a new thread addressing blade life and sharpening.  Since I never intended to drift off into blades here, I will add my blade comments on his thread.

[OlJarhead]

The customer's "cut list" was only 14' 2X6's.  No 1" side lumber and no 2X4's....only 2X6's.

So does this mean you started milling at the point in which you can provide the first 2x6 and continued from there?

I'm asking as I've always only milled first to the biggest cant I can produce and then milled it into the desired lumber leaving what I leave at the bottom.

[Magicman]

My target was always a 2X6.  I opened the faces at a thickness that would produce the maximum number.  Maybe one plus the cant, or maybe 2, 3, or 4.  Sometimes with smaller logs, only the cant which was then reduced into 2X6's.

My lumber bf output would have been higher if I could have produced the 2X4's, but then not having to produce them speeded up handling the flitches.  Maybe it was a wash, but it was also a different thought process and there was waste on the flitches.

[DR Buck]

My lumber bf output would have been higher if I could have produced the 2X4's, but then not having to produce them speeded up handling the flitches.  Maybe it was a wash, but it was also a different thought process and there was waste on the flitches.

Also makes the flitches (slabs) a lot heavier.   I do a fair number of jobs for specific size lumber.  It always leaves more waste.  I agree, in the end it is a wash.  Less time sawing for more lumber.  If you saw on a bf rate, you hourly $$ net can go way up.   At my normal 35¢ I often hit the $100 per hour mark when sawing for a single target size and don't run the blades into tramp metal.

[dboyt]

Maybe he needs the firewood from the heavier slabs?  I guess if the logs are cheap enough, it makes sense.  Looking at your setup, you could have saved yourself some time by setting the mill a little closer to that drop-off and just dropping the logs down onto the mill and not bother with the hydraulic lifters.

Strangest request I ever had was from a fellow who had "huge 18" diameter cedar logs" that he wanted 2x6 boards cut from.  Turns out they were 18" in circumference (6" dia.).  Sometimes it pays to go out and look at a job before you drag the mill out to it!

With a manual sawmill, it's my shoulders that do the talking when the blade gets dull.  They're saying "more Advil!!!"

[OlJarhead]

At my normal 35¢ I often hit the $100 per hour mark when sawing for a single target size and don't run the blades into tramp metal.

That would mean you're running around 285bf/hr.  What kind of mill is that?  I always thought the big mills (LT40's etc) could do way over that??

[Magicman]

I was actually surprised, because my daily bf total was on the high end of what I consider as normal. 

[Magicman]

Looking at your setup, you could have saved yourself some time by setting the mill a little closer to that drop-off and just dropping the logs down onto the mill and not bother with the hydraulic lifters. 

There was no option on the setup.  These logs were tree length and staged in an abandoned dug silo with a cement floor.  They are being bucked and pulled up to the sawmill's loader.  There is no room for maneuverability for a tractor/loader even if we had access to one.  With three workers, the log is on the sawmill's loader when the last blade pass is made.  There is zero lost time or motion.

[DR Buck]

At my normal 35¢ I often hit the $100 per hour mark when sawing for a single target size and don't run the blades into tramp metal.

That would mean you're running around 285bf/hr.  What kind of mill is that?  I always thought the big mills (LT40's etc) could do way over that??

It's in my tag line at the bottom of all my posts.           


LT40HDG25  -  25 hp Kohler gas,  Accuset II,  Debarker, Powered board drag-back, Lube-mizer, Auto clutch ........


Wood-Mizer claims "up to 550 BF/HR".    All I can say is I doubt that sustaining over 350 bf per hour is possible for more than a couple hours any given day with an LT40 hydraulic.   Maybe with a super, but not a 25 hp LT40 hydraulic.     

My best single day (9 hours) in 8 years milling is just over 3200 bf.  That was with 4 guys off bearing  and loading logs and me running the mill.  Logs were all 8 to 10 footers 12-20 inches diameter, no nail hits, all 5/4 random width, edged on the mill.   Everybody was tired at the end of the day.

[OlJarhead]

Thanks for the reply.

I think one of the problems with new guys who haven't spent enough time milling yet and have spent too much time reading sales postings is that we start believing it!

Heck, I thought I'd read once that the LT40 could do 1000bf/hr.

The LT10 is rated at 100bf/hr and I think (operative word) that I've done as much as 250bf/hr with it but we were really in a groove.

So, in the end I appreciate the candor because if I'm going to eat in a few months it may well be because I've earned a buck milling for someone and it helps to know not to oversell myself and under-price or overprice my service.

Heck, I keep looking at the bigger mills thinking if I had one of those and was putting out 500bf/hr then......well you get the idea.

[Brucer]

You'll notice that all the production rates in the manufacturers' literature have a little footnote: figures quoted are for the highest horsepower option.

Magicman pointed out that each log was ready to load when he made the last cut on the previous log. That's where you get the high production figures. Logs arrive on the loader arms just before you have to load them. Slabs and finished wood disappear off the top of the cant just as you finish the cut. Flitches waiting to be edged get stacked against the side stops as you're raising the sawhead to the proper height. Customer has already figured out what he/she wants out of each log and has marked the log. Etc.

All you have to do is saw.

[Migal]

Another Great Day for the forum ! Good job MM!

[Ianab]

So much difference in production depending on what you are doing.

I went to an open day at the Peterson factory. They had a big redwood (~5ft) log with an ASM set up over it. They were cutting it into 6x4 landscape timbers. 2 big burly guys offloading, and they were just about running to keep up. Probably chew though a 2,000+ bf/ft log in under an hour. But you don't advertise the mill on those figures, they just aren't normal conditions.

So there are all sorts of things that affect production. Having good help and machinery that stage the next log and remove the waste, means the saw is "in the wood" for the most possible time. Slabbing heavy and cutting 2" boards instead of 1" speeds up bd/ft. You can mess about for a long time to recover the maximum bd/ft from a log. Might be worth it valuable wood, but production suffers.

So production figures are just an "average".

Ian

[terrifictimbersllc]

Looking at your setup, you could have saved yourself some time by setting the mill a little closer to that drop-off and just dropping the logs down onto the mill and not bother with the hydraulic lifters. 

There was no option on the setup.  These logs were tree length and staged in an abandoned dug silo with a cement floor.  They are being bucked and pulled up to the sawmill's loader.  There is no room for maneuverability for a tractor/loader even if we had access to one.  With three workers, the log is on the sawmill's loader when the last blade pass is made.  There is zero lost time or motion.

MM I'm wondering what motivates the customer to provide that kind of help when you're charging by the BF.  And how common is it for you to get that kind of material handling.  As opposed to providing one helper only and leaving some issues with staging logs and removing sawn lumber.   You'll stay at a job till it's done, anyway, won't you?  thanks.

[Peter Drouin]

I have had jobs like that. had 3 or 4 men help . all by the bf. I was so tired after. and you would think I would not be. but you have to saw and watch all whats going on too. dont want no one hurt. and when its cold out you will freeze your but off on that seat.  :D when its cold out its nice to move wood and warm up :D

[Magicman]

This is a "several times" repeat customer that knows exactly what he wants.  He is a dairyman and is very much a "hands on" guy.  Providing two hired hands plus himself is usual for him, but not what I usually see.  Also all hired hands are not created equal because these guys don't stand around waiting for someone else to move.  I am yet to have to point to the sawdust pile or anything else that needs to be done.

The tree length logs had been chainsaw marked at 14' 6" when they were skidded up, so there was no measuring necessary for bucking.  There was always a log ready to be rolled onto the loader as soon as I lowered it.  Every flitch and board is removed while I am returning.  The two plane clamp quickly moves the flitches over and stands them up. 

The only time that I ever step off of the mill is to measure the small end to determine the toe board height and to establish my target height for my first face opening.  I looked at the figures last night and I averaged over 370 bf per hour of sawing.  That first day's blade was a "new out of the box" blade.

Rain stopped us yesterday, so the customer intends to haul more logs in today and Thursday, so we will start back sawing Monday.

[Leigh Family Farm]

Now thats what I call production sawing! Nice job MM.