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New Shank/Bit Instal Help?

Started by Charles135, December 03, 2012, 01:03:13 PM

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Charles135

 

 
This is how my old shanks looked.  I am specifically looking at the connection between the bit and the shank.  That engagement looks pretty clean to me. 


 
These new bits and shanks are not fitting as cleanly as the old ones. 
Is the space between the bit and shank acceptable or not? 
If not how do I correct the problem?
Thank
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

captain_crunch

By no means an expert but that don't  look like it will fly to me :P :P I would Email pic to these people for their opinion

mailto:info@menomineesaw.com
M-14 Belsaw circle mill,HD-11 Log Loader,TD-14 Crawler,TD-9 Crawler and Ford 2910 Loader Tractor

Jeff

That doesn't look right.  Are you using a lubricant when you are installing your bits? It looks like they are going in hard, and the shanks are rotating out of the tooth rather than getting it to seat properly.  I used rust reaper (Now blue creeper) when ever I changed teeth for a lubricant, to make things go together easier.  Did you get the saw hammered?  You should always get a saw re-tensioned when replacing the shanks.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Charles135

CC,
I will do that.  I didn't think it was great myself.  the old one were not that easy to remove but the new one seemed especially difficult to install even with the correct instal tool.
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Charles135

Jeff,
I did use some penetrating oil, as I put them in and yes they are going in hard.  I stopped with the second one to see what suggestions you guys have and have already taken those 2 out.
I will be having the blade hammered next week. 
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

ALWOL

 That is not the right bit for that socket. Look at where the base of the bit meets the socket. It MUST seat firmly in the socket without a gap, and still be flush at the tip of the socket. It may be possible the shank is correct, and will be fine with the proper bit, but that area does not look right either. I would double check the source of the new bits and shanks.

   +1 on using a lube when installing the shanks. I always dip the shank in a pan of oil before install.



       Alan
There's a big difference between staying busy and making money.

Charles135

ALWOL,
I ordered the bits and shanks together, I hope they sent the correct bits, but I do see what you are looking at.  I will contact the company and see if they have some info!
Thanks
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Ron Wenrich

Your tooth is sitting just a might bit high.  I don't think it'll go much more without it slipping from the shank.  I've had that problem from time to time.  Do you seat your shanks after you install your tooth?  Did the second tooth look like that?  Simonds does have some quality issues.

I've used rust reaper in the past.  Before that came out, I used to dip my shanks in diesel when I was installing them.  Sloppy, but it works. 

For new shank install, you should get it hammered, like said before.  Was there any particular reason to put in new shanks? 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

beenthere

Send those same pics to the company and ask them for some clarification and suggestions. They will quickly see what you are up against and likely have the right bits on the way.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Charles135

Ron,
I was going to replace just the bits, and when I began to remove the shanks I noticed very fine cracks in the bottom of a few shanks, so I was concerned with metal fatigue and after taking them all out I found several had cracks on the bottom.  The shoulders were in pretty good shape but, I didn't want to take the chance on the thing comming apart, in my opinion the cost is nonimal as apossed to my saftey.

Beenthere,
I just sent them the photos after talking to them on the phone should know something soon.
Thanks guys.   
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Charles135

Ron,
I already heard back and they said they had seen the problem before and it is a Simonds dimensional problem and would send me out a different brand today!
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

ALWOL

   I have had some "dimensional" problems with the Simonds bits also, but this is a rather serious problem. Sounds like they should be able to fix you up.

     Alan
There's a big difference between staying busy and making money.

Charles135

Alwol,
I recieved another email from the company and they advised that the size "B" shanks has changed over the years and my blade is an older one.  So we think the problem will be solved upon the arrival of the older sized b shank. 

Does anyone have this type of historical information on saw milling available?  I like the technical information from the past and in this case
it would have helped.
Charlie 
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

ALWOL

   If your supplier is telling you there is two different B style sockets, you had better get a second opinion from another supplier, because I have never heard of such. There are several different types of style B shanks, but they all fit the socket. Here is an example of an older and newer shank:


 

   On the top is a new Simonds, and on the bottom is an older Superfine. The only difference in them is the shape of the sawdust swell and the profile of the tail, they both fit eqally well in all style B sockets.
   In your case though, I don't think the shank is the problem. Even if you were to install a new bit with an old shank, it still would not be right because the bit is not the correct dimension. The problems I have had with the Simonds bits were with the actual cutting tip being offset a small distance.
   Hope I didn't just confuse you more!

   Alan
There's a big difference between staying busy and making money.

Ron Wenrich

I've run B style shanks for a long time.  But, I run a winter shank and a summer tooth.  What you were running before was a summer shank and a standall bit.  The standall is a winter tooth.  Either one of these combinations are good for guys in the more northern states. 

The combination you have now is a summer shank and a summer tooth.  That shouldn't be a problem.  I've had those "dimensional" problems with Simonds in the past, as well as poor quality steel.  I'd like to know more about another brand.  Seems that Simonds has bought out every bit maker in the US and Canada.  There are no more Hoes or IKS bits being made.  There are some out of China, but those are really, really  bad.

As for the cracks in the shanks, I've had them as well.  They're stress cracks, and your shank won't fall apart while sawing.  At least, it never did for me.  I was running at 700 rpm, and sawing oak and hickory at those speeds.  I have had a few that split when I put them in, but they usually split on the tip.  They were generally a new shank. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

Quote from: ALWOL on December 03, 2012, 04:34:07 PM
   If your supplier is telling you there is two different B style sockets, you had better get a second opinion from another supplier, because I have never heard of such.

That's really a rather unfair assumption about the supplier as they are a long time forum sponsor and been in business longer than you've been out of diapers. :D  In fact, they were trouble shooting me as a new sawyer and keeping me going before you were born. ;) Old shanks get worn, his saw is old, his shanks are older shanks, they may have been in and out of the saw countless times. This makes them a different size than the newer shanks, and I'd bet that is what they meant.  Peach is the saw guy at Menominee and the last I new had hammered over 10,000 saws, and that was a few years ago.  Don't doubt Menominee for one second. They know exactly what they are talking about. If something gets confused in translation that's one thing, but please don't hammer a sponsor "because I have never heard of such"  There are other size B patterns. Those are the oversize that as I knew came in 1x, 2x, 3x, and maybe 4, that were purposed to fit worn sockets.


I'm wondering about the alternative brand of bits as well. Last I knew all that was available was simonds any more. I think I have a post on here cursing the quality and size of the bits from 10 years ago.

We went to running summer bits and super-shanks all year round. I just didn't get along well with standalls.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Charles135

I could very well have mistaken what they were saying.  I do think the supplier really do know what they are talking about because is wasn't 1 minute from the time I sent the email they sent something back explaining they had seen the problem before.  As for as the other brand bits, I am not sure what thwy will send, as soon as I get them most likely tomorrow I will let you know.  Here are some more photos of the combinations of shanks and bits, maybe it will help diagnos the problem. 


 
This is the old shank and a new bit


 
This is a new shank and an old bit


 
This is a new and old shank.  The new shank has a milimeter or two deaper belly than the old one. 


 
The old and new bits are identical in size other that as mention earlier one is a winter and the other is a summer bit.
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Jeff

Did you clean the sockets up on the saw?  Sometimes minute wood fibers can collect under the shank, in the sockets almost as if they were a shim. Look to make sure there isn't any kind of build up like that on the saw, a new shank is not going to want to fit right.

Both those photo combinations above look good to me.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Charles135

Jeff,
I am cleaning them as I go.  I thought both combinations look pretty good myself.  I do wonder how difficult the new shanks should be to get in.  The old shanks and this may not be right, but they take a couple whacks with a rubber mallet to the end of the install handle to get them all the way in and started out.  The new ones take a few more wacks.  Is this about right?
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Jeff

Honestly, I've never had to whack em to get them to seat unless something wasn't right When everything is clean, and lubed, they should turn in with simple pressure applied to the tool handle, with a couple of umphpahs at the end for good measure, then a rap on the shank to seat them. Coming out can be a bit tougher if they have been in awhile and "glued in" with wood juices.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

ALWOL

   I do not claim to know everything, and certainly did not intend to "hammer" on a sponser, and do honestly feel bad about saying that now, but there is not more than one style of B socket. There is however several oversizes of the B style.
   Charles, is there a chance that the shoulder of some of your sockets have been repaired at some time?

     Alan
There's a big difference between staying busy and making money.

dgdrls


I was thinking the same, perhaps one or more of the sockets are "over-sized"??

DGDrls


Charles135

Alwol and Dgdrls,
I too am not a expert, but I have looked at the blade very closely over the last few days and have not noticed anything that would make me think there was any repair done.  Also, all of the shanks were stamped B 9 and had no other markings on them to make me think oversized either. 

For clarification on the info I relayed earlier:  The supplier's response stated that my blade looks like an older saw (which it is) and that over time the measurements on the B-9 have drifted (I do not know about this at all).  Again I am not sure if there will be a different brand or just another size! 

Jeff,
When you say "a rap on the shank to seat them" what do you apply that "rap" with?
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

beenthere

I think this video is member steamsawyer, but may be mistaken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr4pyjsCgnk
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Jeff

I always waited until all the teeth were in, and used the handle on my swagging hammer. I would grasp both ends, and use the middle to give a wrap in the middle of each gullet. At each rap, I would use the handle to pull the saw around towards me so the next gullet was ready to rap. It would only take less than a minute to do 50 bits.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Charles135

Beenthere,
Thanks for the video.  Mine, even my old ones are no where near that easy to put in or take out.  Like I said earlier, I have to give a little tap to the tool handle to get mine to move then that just slide in.  I will try to use a bit more lubricant and see if that will help.  I think part of my issue is a friction problem. 

Jeff, I see what you are talking about.  Thanks.
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Ron Wenrich

That's what I meant about seating the shanks.  I take my saw wrench and put it in the shank, then hit it with a hammer.  Seats a shank, usually just by putting it in there.

How do the shanks look when you put one on top of the other?  It seems like the new one has the knob sitting somewhat lower, and that doesn't allow it to come together the way the older shank does.  It may be in the shank, and not the tooth.  But, Simonds does have that quality issue I mentioned.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

Seem older Simonds bits and shanks [when they had competion] were of better quality.When you find a lot that fits right and works well, stock up.Back in the eighties I stocked up on bits and shanks when they were more reasonable.I'll probibly be milling for St. Peter before I run out. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Jeff

Just a note on the video. When Steamsawyer (If that is steamsawyer) seats the bit, then gives those last couple umphs to the tool, which is the same thing I did, you need to be careful. The 2nd worst I was ever cut by a saw was when doing that. The hardened pin in the change tool broke, and I drove one of the teeth deep into the palm of my hand. The first worst was when the same thing happened changing the teeth in the Horizontal edger between the fixed blades. The pin snapped and I drove the lower blade into my hand. I still have nerve damage in my right hand from that episode.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

POSTON WIDEHEAD

The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Charles135

Ron,
The shanks are identical as for a the small lobe, and the length and pin hole.  The only difference is as it shows in one of the photos, the belly is jsut a mm or so deaper, I just thought maybe that is the difference between an new shank and one that has been in the blade for years. 

Jeff,
I am very cautious when dealing with those bits, I have been cut pretty bad by another blade on a mill ,not mine, that i used to saw on. 

Bandmiller2,
You want to part with any shanks?

Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Jeff

Quote from: Charles135 on December 04, 2012, 09:04:11 PM
I just thought maybe that is the difference between an new shank and one that has been in the blade for years. 

I think that is very likely
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

steamsawyer

Well... I don't know how I missed this thread the first time around. I usually glomb on to anything that has to do with roundy-round blades.

Yeah, I'd recognize that fatboy in the video anywhere... It's me.

I couldn't find anything on youtube about the subject so I made the video to show the basics of bit instalation. This is my new blade and it was the first time the teeth were replaced.

The main thing about the process is make sure everything is clean and use lots of lube. I usually drop the new teeth in a pan of motor oil and work from there. It is a messy job. I agree on the danger of breaking a pin. I heard about that happening so I usually lay a heavy weldors golve over the blade below the handle... but that day I never thought about it. Unfortunately you can't wear heavy gloves for this because you are handling the small parts.... That, and I am clumsy enough that if I had on gloves and fell down, I'd have to take them off to get up.... The shank should rotate into place without a bunch jerking and hammering like you see me doing, but without a good lock to keep the blade still it's hard to not whack on it.

I never noticed cracks in my shanks before but I have replaced them because of wear. What I found was the inside edge was rounded off and it was allowing the sawdust to run out the sides and cake on the sides of the blade causing it to bind in the cut.

It looks to me like there was a mix up and somehow you ended up with the wrong bits and shanks. I'm sure your supplier will make it right for you.

Alan

J. A. Vance circular sawmill, 52" blade, powered by a 70 HP 9 1/2 x 10 James Leffel portable steam engine.

Inside this tired old mans body is just a little boy that wants to go out and play.

Great minds think alike.....  Does your butt itch too?

Alan Rudd
Steam Punk Extraordinaire.

Charles135

Steamsawyer,
In reference to the cracks, the mill I have had not been used for 15, 20 years and the blade just sat there and wasn't used.  I could have been wrong on the stress causing the cracks but that is what it looked like when I went through a welding class over a decade ago.  The cracks were within a 3/8 to 1/2 " of the tip opposite the bit.  Each crack was almost at the exact same place on each shank.  The shanks were very difficult to come out.  I finally put penetrating oil on them and that helped but they were still mighty tight.  I have received the new ones in the mail, but haven't unpacked them to see the brand and if they are going to work better.  I am planning on soaking them in diesel or motor oil prior to an attempt. 

And thanks for the video it was helpfurl!
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

steamsawyer

Hey Charlie,

I was going back through your thread and I was looking for discussion about blade tension. I think we were all caught up in trying to diagnose your bit and shank issue, I guess since that was the original question. The thing is, the shank is also part of the saw tension. Each shank has a certain amount of spring built into it and they have to be in place for the saw plate to be hammered.

I hope the new parts are right and work out for you. You can try the blade to see if it will stand up ok at the right speed, but I suspect it will have to go to the saw doc.

Alan
J. A. Vance circular sawmill, 52" blade, powered by a 70 HP 9 1/2 x 10 James Leffel portable steam engine.

Inside this tired old mans body is just a little boy that wants to go out and play.

Great minds think alike.....  Does your butt itch too?

Alan Rudd
Steam Punk Extraordinaire.

bandmiller2

Just to mention about tight shanks in saws that have lain fallow for a long time.I've found if you tap the gullet of the shank like your trying to seat it, will help along with snake oil.I use a section of 1" round stock,put it into the gullet then tap just outside with a light hammer,seems to break rusts grip. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Charles135

Steamsawyer,
The new part are fitting good.  I do have an appointment next week to have th blade hammered. 

Bandmiller2,
Thanks for that tip.  I will use it if I run into the problem agian.
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Charles135

For those of you that were interested in the alternative brand shank it is Hoppe brand.  They are made in the US and are fitting perfectly.  I will send a photo of them ASAP.  The Hoppe brand must be new.  I did find them on the internet but can't seem to get the link to follow me over here. 

If any of you guys have had any experience with the brand let me know abotu it please!
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

reride82

I'm glad you got your shank issue figured out Charlie  ;)
'Do it once, do it right'

'First we shape our buildings, then our buildings shape us'
Living life on the Continental Divide in Montana

Charles135

Thanks Reride,
I continue to be impressed by the williness to share information and the amount of knowledge within this forum.
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

bandmiller2

Hoppe shanks are made in western Ma.on CNC machines if I recall.Its good to have anouther player and a choise.To the best of my knowledge bits are forged and ground,we need anouther company [on these shores] to make high quality bits,and mayby bits for some of the old discontinued patterns.Has anyone you know about tried silver soldering carbide on worn bits.??? Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Ron Wenrich

Arsaw makes carbide bits for inserted tooth saws.  I don't know why they don't go over to regular bits.  I have some new edger blades that had a P on the shank.  Turns out they are made at Piper Saw shop.  They also make a carbide bit.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

I have a hunch they know they can't compete with the big fella on standard bits so stick to their specialty.Being a saw shop their probibly a Simonds dealer and don't want to upset that. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Charles135

Bandmiller2 and Ron,
I am glad there is another company in the game also.  I can't say that a different set of Simond shanks might not have fit, but it is pretty sad they don't have the quality conrol to keep their standards up.  When 0 out of a box of 40 shanks don't fit then I get a diffent brand and they all fit perfectly something is wrong. 
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

dgdrls

Charles135,

glad to hear you got your bits and shanks fitting

when do we get to see the ol' girl sawing some logs?

DGDrls

Charles135

I get my blade hammered this week so I should have a gallery full of photos by this weekend if all gies well!
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Jeff

I feel compelled too remind everyone that the gallery is for holding photos used in posts. If the photo is not going to be placed directly in a post, it should not be uploaded and taking up space in the gallery.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Charles135

Thanks Jeff,
I wasn't aware.  I'll only upload a few this weekend, but if this rain keeps up I may not get to take any!
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

dail_h

Charles,
   Not sure if it makes any difference,, but in the picture of your blade above,,it looked like your guides might be rubbing the bottoms of the shanks. I've always been told that this wasnt good,, but then no saw expert here,, just thought that might could be the cause of stress cracks,, maybe Jeff, or Ron ,or one of the more experienced sawers might have input.
World Champion Wildcat Sorter,1999 2002 2004 2005
      Volume Discount At ER
Singing The Song Of Circle Again

Ron Wenrich

I didn't notice that before.  If that line is coming from the saw guide, then its way too high.  Saw guides aren't supposed to touch the shanks.  They should be about 1/4-1/2" inch below the shanks.  Just so they don't touch.

That wouldn't be the cause of stress cracks in the shanks.  I've had them in my shanks and the guide doesn't touch them.  I talked it over with a guy who has big time experience with steel.  He says its in the steel, and not much you can do about it.  He also said that it wasn't anything to worry about. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

Ron Got to this while I was doing my husbandly duties. Folding the towels I was told to fold.

Anyhow, yup. know that I am nome and not looking at the photos on a phone, its obvious that of those are marks from your guidepins. you gotta do what Ron said. :)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

dail_h

World Champion Wildcat Sorter,1999 2002 2004 2005
      Volume Discount At ER
Singing The Song Of Circle Again

Charles135

Dail, Ron, and Jeff
I read that in another thread.  I have since mere the adjustment.  Thanks for letting me know!  Why is it a no no to have the guides so high?
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

beenthere

Might be that they hit on the shanks.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Wenrich

Your worst enemy in any saw is friction.  Friction causes heat and that causes the steel to do things you don't want it to do.  It stretches.  Friction on the rim is the worst, as it stretches the rim, but not the eye. 

As a sawyer, you want to reduce the friction as much as possible.  That means you have to adjust the saw so it doesn't drag at any point.  That's the purpose of lead, teeth wider than the saw, and shanks wider than the saw.  A constant drag on the shanks will cause heat.  If you adjust too far away from the shanks, then the purpose of the saw guide is defeated.  I had some that were too far away from the shanks cause some real problems with sawing.

Sawdust can also drag down the sides of a saw.  That's the purpose of the shanks.  Worn shanks allow it to spill out.  This can cause some heat.  But, when you saw logs that are partially frozen, you'll get sawdust caking on the side of the log.  When that happens, it will push your saw causing miscut lumber and a general frustration that will make you doubt your abilities as a sawyer. 

Heat will cause problems.  That's why having the sun shine on your saw will cause erratic performance.  It doesn't have to be a lot of sun.  I've also noticed that the best production I get from saws is in the late spring and early fall.  I've always thought that was due to air temperature. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

Saw guides as a term is sort of misleading. The guides, in a properly running saw, never touch the saw for the most part. They are there as a means to keep a saw in check if it leaves the path of intention. People will use the saw guides sometimes as a means to keep a saw cutting in its intended path, and if they do, they are treating a symptom, rather than delivering a cure. The best way to set your guides is with the saw running. That may not be a safe thing to do with some saw set ups. I'm used to guide systems that have the ability to be adjusted from a safer working distance from a turning saw.  If your saw is running true at speed (not wobbling), you should first adjust in your carriage side pin until you just here a tick... tick... Just a random incidental contact with the rotating saw, then back it off just a half a hair. Then repeat with the slab side. If you adjust with the saw standing still, you hneed to make compensations in your settings for when the saw stands up under rotation so the guides just barely clear the saw and are not riding it.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Charles135

Ron and Jeff,
Thank you both, that is some really great info.  I have printed your info to use when I fire the mill back up this weekend. 

Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

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