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Untreated pine logs

Started by tbeale, December 02, 2012, 12:44:39 PM

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tbeale

 

 
I own a seven year old town-home with a 2nd floor deck with log posts and railings that need replacing due to rot.  The log materials are untreated pine that was stained after installation. The posts are resting directly on a concrete slab – I don't know whether or not there were piers dug and poured under the slab.
They want to replace the rotten wood with the same untreated pine log materials – I was told that they "treat it" prior to installation.  I assume that means that they stain it.  If it's repaired in this manner, I'll likely be replacing it again in seven years.
The repairs are at the cost of the owner but must be approved by a board.  I'm looking for advice on any precautions or installation methods that might prevent premature rot if they insist on using untreated pine logs.

I haven't figured out how to reply to a question so I am going to add additional information that addresses the questions.

The town-home is in central Illinois.

All units must have a uniform appearance so I must use log products.

They are finished with a brown color stain.

clww

I would only use pressure treated lumber, probably 6" X 6" judging by your picture. They also need to be raised with no contact between the concrete and the post. There are collars that can be bought at the big box stores, or housing supply chains for this purpose. Some of these have a device for raising the post (jacking it up) in order to level it and keep it attached over time due to shrinkage. After installation, and drying, then I would stain them.
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thecfarm

tbeale, welcome to the forum. The "board" may want to keep the look-color the same. I noticed everything is the same color. If pressure treated or cedar was used I don't know if it would match the siding. Now if all the owners replaced it with the same wood than all the decks would all look the same.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

beenthere

tbeale
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Non-treated pine is temporary at best. Pressure treated is the only way to go. Brush-on treatments are marginal.
Getting a wood species that is resistant to decay may be another option for you.

And where are you located? Would help to know for some additional help to your dilema.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

shelbycharger400

pressure treated wood is not the same as it use to be.
I watched a deal on tv about it a while back
They use to vat treat in large lots, they said it took too long. Now the common practice is to spray at high pressure down a conveyor line.

Few years ago I had to use some 6x6 green treat posts, cut them in half, the treatment was at best only 1/2 inch in.

To top it off most have changed the chemicals too, to this environmentally friendly chemical.  well if its friendly it breaks down as dose the wood from bugs.

Ianab

There are different levels of treatment. H1 treated as you say, pretty much a spray on borate solution to chase bugs away.  Get it wet, and it rots.

Then the treatment goes up to H6, which is rated for something like 30 years in sea water!!! It pretty much has copper and chromium dripping out of it.

So not all treated pine is the same by any means, and you need to specify the correct grade for the application.

You can still get the full pressure treated (to whatever hazard level), but of course the seriously treated stuff costs more. The cheap framing lumber is speced for indoor covered use, so it's only spray on. Use that in ground contact and it will be rotten in a year.

Ian
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shelbycharger400

The 6x6 's I bought were from menards.
The copper chromium Arsenate was the good stuff, I thought they pulled it from the market here, haven't seen it in years.
On that note, their was some " brown treat" lumber too,  That stuff at most lasted 5 years even with paint or stain.  something with boron or barium can't remember

Jay C. White Cloud

Welcome Tbeale,

As you have read thus fare you are getting some form of the same advice.  I work almost exclusively in traditional building methods and almost never use pressure treated lumber of any kind, (though it is spec'd on some jobs, we mitigate it as much as possible.) 

PT, no matter the type has a life span, there isn't any way around that.  If you get toxicity levels high enough, you can effect human contact health and "coloring" ability with stains.  I, like a few others here, really need to know more about your location, and what restriction, the "association" applies to you.  Is there room for variances, as long as you follow a "log theme."  Would the "association," consider starting a new look for the deck areas on and around the structures?  Your plight must be shared by many of your neighbors, as leaving wood, (PT or not,) in the configuration you have designed in your decks, is only going to last so long before needing to be replaced.  That is just the reality of the situation.

Now, one thing you maybe able to do, to stretch the "life span" of the deck structure, is to scarfe new wood onto the bottom of the post.  I have done that in a few situation of "log homes," with similar deck configurations.  We actually used the really nasty stuff that a telephone/pier company had.  Poisonous as you could get, but it only went up the original post about 0.8 meters (2.3')  You can also get wood solidification epoxies, but in this instance, I believe it would be a waist of time and money.

There are many rot resistant species that would work as good (or better,) than PT. The contractor will have to have a background in traditional building methodolgy and wood treatments for "wet/dry" application, otherwise you will see failure in the work very quickly.  Another alteration I could not stress enough, the "decks," should be covered, ergo, make them porches with healthy roof overhangs.  I'm trusting that the original design of the buildings, (I would check the blue prints,) address the "point loads" of the post as they meet the slab.  You can use market standard "post to plinth," connection, though these can be unsightly.  A simple stone plinth, to raise the bottom of the post off the ground 200 mm (8") minimum would be justified for the look of your structure.

Once again welcome to the forum,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

tbeale

Thanks for the responses.  Following are additional details:

The townhome is in central Illinois.  All units must have a uniform appearance so I must use log products. posts and rails are finished with a brown color stain.

Thanks,

Ted

shinnlinger

You may be lucky enough to have treatment facility near you.  Perhaps you can talk them into treating a entire pine log that you then stain after
Shinnlinger
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Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Ted,

I spent part of my youth in Charleston, Illinois, so I know the state pretty well.  I don't want to counter any of the advice you are receiving, but I can't stress enough the concerns over using PT.  A log/or timber as you have in your deck design could not be "treated" well enough to last much past 15 years (more like 5 to 10.)  There is no technique to date that can achieve that for standard PT.  It will look good from the outside, but be completely rotten on the inside where the preservative could not reach, in less than a decade.  If you use, as I stated before, one of the other methodologies for PT, you will have a log/timber that is so toxic, you would not want to touch in, particularly in the summer months, when they "sweat-out" their toxins.  This "heavy load" treatment also effects the ability to take stain/pigment.  There are "drill in" capsule treatments that have worked as a method of ongoing treatment, but this takes reapplication and can be a "hit or miss," method.

Do you think they would except a design made of Locust, Tamarack, or Cedar post?  If they will work with you, I might be able to give you a design that would last as long as most PT (or longer,) and be completely natural.  The concern is the deck being exposed and not under cover, but there are solution to that also, as I mentioned before.

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Okrafarmer

That would be my advice too. Peel the bark from whatever log you use. Locust will last a good long time. White cedar, ditto.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

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thecfarm

But would any of the above wood stained look like the others units? He said they have to look the same. May have to stain it and bring it to the board to look at and approve it.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Okrafarmer

He's one of those people whose board has to approve his boards.  :-\
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi thecfarm,

I thought of that also after my last post.  You are correct, this solution that we are discussing, for an association like this needs to be planed out so others too, can implement it.  From what I can see in the picture, many of these "deck structure," will need assistance soon.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

thecfarm

My brother did that with a deck too.  ::)  Lasted just about 8-10 years, just as I said. My other house the same thing was done too. I tore it off and they never put any flashing to keep the water off the side of the house, more rot to replace.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Jay C. White Cloud

Quote from: thecfarm on December 02, 2012, 09:06:02 PM
My brother did that with a deck too.  ::)  Lasted just about 8-10 years, just as I said. My other house the same thing was done too. I tore it off and they never put any flashing to keep the water off the side of the house, more rot to replace.

Hi thecfarm,

We have had so many suggestion so fare, when you say, "My brother did that with a deck too.  Which solution did you mean?

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

thecfarm

I'm sorry. I meant nothing more than a stain brought over the counter. Never added to it. Just a Glidden or a Thompson stain is all I can think of.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi thecfarm,

No worries, that's good to clarify, every piece of information helps when somebody like Ted has questions about a problem.  Plus that reminds me that this issue of coloring the new wood can really be an issue, and Ted needs to know that.  With older complexes, like the one Ted is part of,  maintaining aesthetic "architectural integrity," like matching color, becomes a real problem.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Mad Professor

Locust if you can get BI to approve and PC people to accept.

If a local mill gets a run of locust (not often here) ask them just to debark logs of the length/size you need.

It will outlast the building.

White oak or cherry heartwood is another good option

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