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Engine pre-heater

Started by deastman, December 02, 2012, 12:05:34 AM

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deastman

Considering putting a diesel-fired engine heater on my processor which has a 4BT Cummins. Been looking at an Espar and a ProHeat, has anyone had any experience with either brand? Does one work better than the other?
Samsung 130 LCM-3 with Fabtek 4-roller and Cat 554 forwarder, Cat EL 180 excavator, Cat D3C dozer, Cat D7E dozer, '92 Ford LTL 9000 dump, Easy-2-Load 25 Ton tag-a-long, current project under construction: '91 Peterbilt 379 with a Hood 8000 w/extenda-boom loader

mad murdock

Never used those. Back when we logged in N. Wisconsin, we had our service pickup set up with recirc hoses and quick connects to warm up the equipment for cold weather ops. On today's autos, one would just need to make sure to not cross contaminate your equipment/warming vehicle not all coolants are compatible these days.
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

shelbycharger400

Im not familar with the 4b, but couldnt you put in a inline heater in the coolant hoses?
Block heater in a core hole?  Modifying an intake and put in a intake heater grid like that on the 5.9.   Running 2 engines would be expensive.

barbender

The Ponsse forwarder I run has a Webasto preheater, they are great. It has a programmer on it, if you want to start at 6:00 a.m., set the pre-heater for 5:00 a.m. and when you show up at 6:00 you will have a warm machine waiting for you. It's a way better system than the spit swappers, no hooking up lines or air locking, and no waiting, it's already warm when you get there. I can't comment on the other two brands, but I suspect they would work good. The Webasto does require periodic cleaning, mine wouldn't fire the first time I tried it this winter, so we had to clean the burner.
Too many irons in the fire

deastman

Thanks, if i go with the engine heater i would like to get one large enough to warm the hydraulic tank also, i've been looking at a tank heater from Arctic Fox that's supposed to work well with these type of engine heaters, just not sure how involved it's gonna get installing it in the tank itself, need to cut a hole then weld the adapter into the tank wall.  What i'd like to do is have the engine and hydraulic oil warm when i get there in the morning and not to have to wait for everything to warm up before i can go to work. A friend of mine has that type of pre-heating system on his hydraulic rock drill and says it works great, no waiting for the engine and hydraulics to warm up on cold mornings
Samsung 130 LCM-3 with Fabtek 4-roller and Cat 554 forwarder, Cat EL 180 excavator, Cat D3C dozer, Cat D7E dozer, '92 Ford LTL 9000 dump, Easy-2-Load 25 Ton tag-a-long, current project under construction: '91 Peterbilt 379 with a Hood 8000 w/extenda-boom loader

Ken

I'm very curious to see what other comments may be directed at this thread.  I have given some thought to the same sort of installation.  I'm sure it would extend the life of motors, pumps, etc.

Ken
Lots of toys for working in the bush

1270d

We have both espar and proheat units.  The heaters warm engine coolant using a water jacket around the burner and hyd oil via routing the burner exhaust through the hyd tank.  They also are set up so that when the coolant reaches a certain temp, the cabin heater/blower turn on warming the inside.  It sure is nice to show up to work -10* f and have the cab warm and windows clear.

The engine and oil are not at operating temp after 1 hr of heating (maybe halfway there) but warmup time is a lot shorter.  Maybe 5 to 10 minutes vs 30 plus when temps are 15 to 20 below.

I don't have an opinion on which system is better, although I've heard the proheat is the cadillac of them all.

They do require maintenance,just like anything.  A yearly cleaning,unless an ignitor or sensor fails.  I ve been told to run them at least once a month all year to keep them from getting gummed up etc.  So far its been almost two years with no maint on my espar.  Fuel burn is minimal.  On a retrofit it might be easier to use a seperate fuel tank with #1 diesel.  Ours are factory and plumbed to the main tank.

There s no comparison to hooking up your truck hoses to the machine.  Unless you like sitting around at the job for a bit each morning.

JDeere

Quote from: barbender on December 02, 2012, 11:03:09 AM
The Ponsse forwarder I run has a Webasto preheater, they are great. It has a programmer on it, if you want to start at 6:00 a.m., set the pre-heater for 5:00 a.m. and when you show up at 6:00 you will have a warm machine waiting for you. It's a way better system than the spit swappers, no hooking up lines or air locking, and no waiting, it's already warm when you get there.

I completely agree with barbender. I put an espar heater on my skidder before last winter and I would never go another winter without it. I program it to come on 45 mins. before we arrive and it's just like starting the skidder in June. I don't think I spent $25.00 all winter on kerosene. They can run on diesel but it was suggested I use kerosene for the very cold -20*F days. I think I paid about $1,200.00 for mine. Installing it was simple. I inquired on the board here about them and some were of the opinion that it was too much money to spend. I can only say I did not lose a minute to hard starting or not starting last winter and it sure is easier on the motor. Where we log in Western Maine it can easily hit -20*F to -30*F overnight and starting equipment on Monday morning after a weekend of those temps can be costly in terms of time and equipment.
2013 Western Star, 2012 Pelletier trailer, Serco 7500 crane, 2007 Volvo EC 140, 2009 John Deere 6115D, 2002 Cat 938G, 1997 John Deere 540G, 1996 Cat D-3C, 1995 Cat 416B, 2013 Cat 305.5E

pigpen

hey Deastman,  I have used them both on timbco's that I've run in the past, the proheat heated the coolant and oil up hotter than the espar... espar heated the coolant to like 120*f and the proheat would heat it up to 160-170*f, not sure on the maintenance end, they are both gonna give a little trouble. They seem a lot better off if you just use them every day and like was mentioned earlier in this thread once a month or more in the summer, they just seem to like being run more than they like sitting and bouncing around all day and not blowing the dust out every day, you know? On the timbco's the hyd tank was plumbed with a coolant coil in it, so the pre heater was simply plumbed in to both the motor and hyd tank and away you went. Fuel consumption was hard to tell between cause the pro heat was plumbed into main tank and the espars were plumbed both ways over the years. I can tell you that the espar heater had approx a 2 gallon tank on them when they weren't plumbed into main tank, and they would go 3 days running about 2.5 hrs each morning. Good Luck!

barbender

The Webasto unit on the Ponsse only heats the engine coolant, so I still have to let the machine warm for 15 minutes on cold days, and then cycle everything slowly to warm up the hydraulics. If I was going from scratch, I'd definitely go with a unit that heats the hydraulics as well. If this is equipment you are making a living with, these units are well worth the investment ;).
Too many irons in the fire

mad murdock

Those fuel fired preheaters sound like the cat's meow!  where was that technology when we was swapping spit in the 1980's?? Sounds like they took the aircraft preheater technology and adapted it to heavy equipment.  I think I would spring for one of those units too if i was still stuck in the frozen north! :)
Turbosawmill M6 (now M8) Warrior Ultra liteweight, Granberg Alaskan III, lots of saws-gas powered and human powered :D

deastman

Thanks for all the help. Looks like i'll be going with a ProHeat system, found a ProHeat dealer today right in my area who sells, installs and stocks lots of parts for them and also sells the heater coils to put in the hydraulic tank. The dealer also has these systems on his own equipment to heat both the engine and hydraulics and swears by them. If it works real well on the processor I may put one on the forwarder later on.
Samsung 130 LCM-3 with Fabtek 4-roller and Cat 554 forwarder, Cat EL 180 excavator, Cat D3C dozer, Cat D7E dozer, '92 Ford LTL 9000 dump, Easy-2-Load 25 Ton tag-a-long, current project under construction: '91 Peterbilt 379 with a Hood 8000 w/extenda-boom loader

Gary_C

I've got Webasto heaters on both my Ponsse harvester and Valmet forwarder and would not be without them in the northland. both systems were built into the machines so they heat the cab, engine coolant, and hydraulic tanks. Even turn on the heater fan so the cab is all warmed up when I get to the job.

I also have a Proheat air heater in my semi sleeper and it works very well. The Proheat has been a little more troublesome but all of these small diesel heaters need some attention at times.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

cutter88

espar work great!! i had one on my self loader truck... i thought about putting one on my skidder but was told they wont stand up on a skidder so i went to propane burner that circulates and heats my coolant
Romans 10 vs 9 
650G lgp Deere , 640D deere, 644B deere loader, 247B cat, 4290 spit fire , home made fire wood processor, 2008 dodge diesel  and a bunch of huskys and jonsereds (IN MEMORY OF BARRY ROGERSON)

Tree Killer

 Having problems with my Espar, anyone ever have one apart to clean the impeller ? I had it running the other day while i got some welding done. Now it won't fire and gives me a F30 code for a stuck impeller. I've heard that the magnet on the impeller can collect any metal in the cooalnt and stop working. :new_year:

Gary_C

I just had a problem with my Proheat bunk heater in my semi and the fan impeller actually threw the tiny magnet and gave me an error code because it could not sense the fan was turning. Could not find the magnet so had to get a new impeller.

Don't know if the two units are similiar in problems, but sounds like the same thing.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Tree Killer

 Ya im going to tear into this week, the weather is supose to warm up so i may have the time.

Woodhauler

Back in the day, my father had a OLD timberjack,in the early sixtys that had a propane block heater on it! I was very young and it was a crap shoot if the skidder burned or not! Lucky it never burnede the machine and it worked like a charm!
2013 westernstar tri-axle with 2015 rotobec elite 80 loader!Sold 2000 westernstar tractor with stairs air ride trailer and a 1985 huskybrute 175 T/L loader!

CTL logger

Sounds like your problem tree killer is a stuck impeller when they sit for a period of time they can collect a little metal and it throws the magnetic motor/ impeller drive off probably just needs cleaned. :P

Tree Killer

 FOR SALE : Espar Heater..... ugh. lol Im still working on it.  8)

1270d

Sounds like its time for a new pump.   I just finished taking my espar all apart to clean. I had f32 code I think. It said water pump break.  I took the old one apart and cleaned the magnets but it stilll didn't work.  While its apart clean all of the carbon off the back of the burn chamber.  (Careful with the gaskets inside)  new pump was 400 some dollars.

trev

I have the pro heat on a 610 prentice crane friday morning at 22 below I let the heater work for 20 min and it started great. Love it.

Tree Killer

Quote from: 1270d on January 10, 2013, 06:21:53 PM
Sounds like its time for a new pump.   I just finished taking my espar all apart to clean. I had f32 code I think. It said water pump break.  I took the old one apart and cleaned the magnets but it stilll didn't work.  While its apart clean all of the carbon off the back of the burn chamber.  (Careful with the gaskets inside)  new pump was 400 some dollars.
Is the cleaning process more than taking the lil C clip off of the impleller & cleaning both pieces(impeller& housing)?

1270d

In my pump (espar)  the impeller wasn't directly attatched to the motor shaft.  Rather there is a magnetic link.  One magnet is cupped, fitting over another with a plastic shield in between.  There was some debris between one of the magnets and the shield that I thought might jam the impeller.

To access this you only have to remove the 4 phillips screws securing the impellere side of the pump. Then the magnets and plastic isolator are right there.

Tree Killer

Quote from: 1270d on January 20, 2013, 08:15:55 PM
In my pump (espar)  the impeller wasn't directly attatched to the motor shaft.  Rather there is a magnetic link.  One magnet is cupped, fitting over another with a plastic shield in between.  There was some debris between one of the magnets and the shield that I thought might jam the impeller.

To access this you only have to remove the 4 phillips screws securing the impellere side of the pump. Then the magnets and plastic isolator are right there.
Yup ok thats what mine is to,(espar) i cleaned all that. When the machine is up to temp & i push the heat button on the espar the pump will circulate water. Sounds like i gotta get a new pump. Where did u get yours @ ?

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