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Need feedback on insurance and maybe the design..

Started by wkheathjr, December 01, 2012, 09:38:35 AM

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wkheathjr

My father just informed me that he wanted to cut down about 10 of his hickory trees and I believe it has one of the high strength about equal to the Oak?  I need to find TF Engineering book as I think the chart is in there.  If I am correct, I was thinking of using them along with some yellow pines to build a 2 story 12x24 shop with living quarter upstair.  I am using Grand Oak Timber Frame plan that uses 6x6 and 4x6 timbers, and was told it was designed for a guy living in Mass so it should do fine in my area (eastern NC).  The foundation design is being debated over at TF Guild but I will probably consult this with engineer.

Now my question is if any of you guys have had any issue of getting insurance coverage for this type of structure?  A shop with living quarter.  I am looking for coverage that would includes fire, wind, lightening, and theft.  Nationwide will not offer theft coverage or any other damages such as water leak from bathroom/kitchen and etc.  I am consulting this with All State at the moment..

But if you guys were me, what would you do if not 2 story 16x24?  I really do need a shop because I am storing my tools in 4 different place!  Tired of having to go through every one of them to find what I am looking for.  I'd like to have a place of my own for a change even if it is small.  Maybe a different design such as a cabin with shop or "garage" attached?  I have half acre to work with so space is limited especially if want to build a house in the future.

Jay C. White Cloud

Good Day wkheathjr,

No, never had any problem with insurance (actually use Nationwide,) and timber frames for several different regions.  My agent is here in New England, but I'm sure he could talk to you. (Stuart Farnham-Nationwide Insurance-603-542-2900.)  As for the other, the folks on this forum, me included, almost always ask for "graphics," this time is no different.  It is hard to form even a "generic," opinion when there are so many variables.  So, picture when you can and/or drawings.

North Carolina seems to be a hit and miss state with Timber Frames.  Some areas are really supportive, others not so much.  First suggestion, get all your permitting in order, or at least talk to the "authorities," so you know what to expect.  Hickory can be a challenging wood to work into a timber frame.  It is strong enough, (and then some,) but it can "act up," like the Birches do, severe checking and twisting.  I use "line rule," layout methods of the Middle East and Asia, so I can mitigate a lot of that bad behavior.  Hope this helps for now.

Regards,

Jay

"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

GeorgeK

I live in an odd house as well. Airplane hangar with house on one end and wood shop and 2 car garage under the house end. In the beginning I had a hard time finding insurance so if that is the case check with a local farm insurance company. I am now with KY farm b.
George Kalbfleisch
Woodmizer LT40, twin blade edger, Bobcat A300, Kubota L48 and yes several logrites!

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi GeorgeK,

That is an important distinction, thank's for reminding me.  I know of a number of folks that have had challenges with "Nationwide," but I don't.  What seems to be the difference?  I have "Nationwide" farm insurance because I raise trout and they seem to treat farm contracts different, I don't know why.  So, if you can go the "farm insurance" way, like you suggest, that is probably the best.

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

wkheathjr

Jay and George,

Thanks for replying with some suggestion.  The issue at hand is not that the insurance won't cover the structure as they will in the event of fire, high winds (wind or tornado or hurricane), and lightning.  My biggest problem is that this is as far as my current Nationwide agent can go.  Will not include the theft insurance if somebody break in to steal my tools or my TV/DVD/computer/etc.  The reason for this is because they view the building as a shop even though it has a permanent residence on 2nd floor.

So I am looking some 'alternative' idea that might can work in the event that All-State and other agent still won't work with that.  At work today, I just remembered that I had a friend who used to own a property given to him by his father who ran a TV business in 50's-80's as TV repairman and retailer exclusive in Zenith.  He had a shop that was about 38' wide and 16' deep with 2 cars garage with loft above the 2-cars garage as storage.  It could be a perfect design to act as a small house?  The funny part is that when he acquired the responsibility of the property in 1986, he paid taxes on it every year until about 1998, the tax man came in and asked him few questions including if it had bathroom? My friend said no and tax man went inside the shop to inspect and true enough there was no bathroom(with shower as they thought there was) so they owed him for all the taxes they overcharged him he got it back in a check!  :D

I'm plan on going to town on Friday and I will talk with the inspector to find out what my options are on this situation.  The thing is that for a shop of up to 40x40, no permit is needed except for electric permit but the fallback could be limited insurance coverage which mean a small 'cabin' or 'house' with 2-cars garage attached acting as a shop could probably be better choice.

We'll see and I will keep you guys posted on this.

wkheathjr

Oh yeah, one more thing.. you mentioned that hickory is strong yet it could misbehave..

So if you were in my shoe, what would you use hickory for if it is to be included in the plan? 

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi,

I'd use the hickory anywhere I liked it.  It is strong enough, but as I said before, I use a different layout method than most.  In your case, maybe flooring would be the best application, otherwise just expect some twisting and checking.

I know if you called my agent he would like to here your plight and might give some suggestions.

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

wkheathjr

Quote from: Jay C. White Cloud on December 03, 2012, 05:08:15 PM
Hi,
In your case, maybe flooring would be the best application, otherwise just expect some twisting and checking.

That is what I thought.. a good hardwood floor.  What about as roofing between the rafter and roof osb for decorating looks on the ceiling?  Wall siding on interior or exterior?

beenthere

That would be called panelling, right? Should work well for that. After drying, you straight line rip or joint an edge straight and then mill the pattern.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Jay C. White Cloud

Hey wkheathjr,

Looks like you made a decision, sorry if my last post sounded cocky, sounded that way to me after I reread it.  We don't use too much "processed" materials on our jobs, on the rare occasion we do what you seem to be suggesting, (a cosmetic application,) we "stretch," the material.  If you do plan to use OSB, or the like, as a sheathing material, you can go as thin as 10 mm (3/8") thick with the hickory.   You will mill it at a close 13 mm (1/2") and plane.  Make sure to do a good and close sticker job of the material, this thin, it can warp if you do not.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

GeorgeK

My insurance with a small farm firm included all types of coverage. So if they will not keep looking. It is out there!

Best wishes.
George Kalbfleisch
Woodmizer LT40, twin blade edger, Bobcat A300, Kubota L48 and yes several logrites!

wkheathjr

Update- I spoke with the building inspector office after my dr appt today.. he said that I can build it as 'self' provide that I do include a solid building plan that will include electric, plumbing, sewer connection, and insulation.  To tell you the truth, it was secretary who answered most of the question with inspector on the phone before he told me to visit or call him tomorrow morning.  I am suspecting that I need a TF engineer stamp since I am very doubtful the inspector is familiar with TF engineering method.  Even with stamp, I can build it without license anyway.

I am looking at two different design idea at this time.  I am trying to decide between gambrel design vs queen post design.  The gambrel design I was thinking of is the same as this video on youtube if you type "timber frame work shop" posted by woodlandindustries on Sept 13, 2010.  That type of design would give a better open-space than the queen post design but I wonder if this design would give the same benefit of transferring load stress similar as queen post?

Concerning the 4" slab, I was think that the 12"W x 12"H under the 4" slab at the edge of the slab should be sufficient to support the TF for high wind loads without cracking..  Anyone familiar with this?  I have discuss similar topic at TF Guild but not feeling satisfied with the answer myself as I am still concerned in that area.


logman

I'm in NC and had to get my house frame stamped, I think it's an NC thing but it could vary by county. 
LT40HD, 12' ext, 5105 JD tractor, Genie GTH5519 telehandler
M&K Timber Works

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi wkheathjr,

I love the TFG, but when it comes to forums, they really don't have what I've seen on this one.  You just seem to see better coverage on this forum from a spectrum of timber wrights, while the TFG has just a tad to much business based TF folks and not enough academics/private timber wrights sharing advice, ideas and projects.  It's one of the reasons I'm a member now only once every few years or so when I might make it to a conference.  I do need to get better about going to the conferences.

I have heard North Carolina come up more often than many other areas as being a challenge.  I do believe you are correct, that it could be a county by county thing and often is based on the "building depart" personal's opinion as much as state construction laws.  I've heard tell of project that are "owner" GC timber frames while not five miles away, a client try to have a timber frame built is being made to jump through every hoop. Lumber grading is one of the issues and well as, you do/you don't have to get a PE stamp being tossed about. 

I not a fan of Gambrel frames, preferring the predecessor to them the "tipping rafter," dutch barn/house style.  As for you foundation, building site is very important to know about first.  I use concrete as little as I possibly can, and usually hide it under some rock.  You could use concrete priers with "moment connections" of some type to pass through the stone into the post of sills.  Good pad of packed rock has also worked all by it's self with some big stone for the post or sills.
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

wkheathjr

Given that TF homes are unique in NC and with the building code in NC, the engineer stamp is necessary.  I am on 'good' with local inspector here so it is not an issue and in the past, I have had my blueprint stamped so I could build 'public use' buildings here on my campground without hiring a GC.

I'll try to do a quick drawing and post it here next week.  Dealing with illness now and going out of state this weekend if I am feeling better. 

wkheathjr

Was feeling a bit better and didn't go out of town for fundraising christmas banquet so I played around with sketchup a bit..  practicing it to get better, and here is the design I came up with using 6x6 post, 6x8 beam to support floor joist, and 4x6 for floor joist.  In this structure, I would use only hardwood for 6x8 and for 4x6 braces.  Everything else will use yellow pines because it is common around here and 80% of trees on my 55 acres are yellow pines with 20% oak but I'd like to conserve oak trees for my future home.

I am undecided on roof design and still thinking about it because I want to add stair to the deck upstair as I am planning to have 8' deck on front.  There will be two access to living quarter- one on front and one at side after the stair reach the deck upstair.  I am fantasizing and hoping maybe to have a hammerbeam on 2nd bent but not sure if this will work with 20' width?  According to the TF Joinery & Design books, 12/12 roof pitch is recommended??  I'd have to use king post on front because I'll need to use ridge on top to support roof for interior and to support deck roof. 

I hope I am clear??  And in case you are wondering, this is not even halfway done.  At least almost 1/2 right now.  Yes I know there is no frame to support door for side on the shop, which I will update once I have decided on stair leading up to the deck as I would want it there next to the step. 


Jay C. White Cloud

Hi wkheathjr,

I have wanted to make this entry for a while.  As you refine the frame I maybe able to assist more, but I work more in the Asian styles so if you want oblique bracing, perhaps others would be better to aid you. I seldom use a roof pitch under 1/2 and more often than not, 4/3 or 3/2, (yes very steep.)  4/3 is my "main stay,) or it's reverse 3/4 for some applications.

Regards,

jay

this site may be of assistance:  http://www.diytf.com/classes.htm
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

wkheathjr

Jay,

If you are suggesting me to take some TF workshop, I have already taken one years back and have since collected plenty of TF tools such as 16" saw, mortise chain, drill bit for drilling peg holes, and few chisels.  I do think I should consider taking joinery design workshop, though.  Maybe Tree to Frame but my father is going to teach me how to fell trees so I might be ok there.

A situation came up recently that I might be able to build on existing concrete slab that was poured in 2003 but end up never being used.  It's 12' wide and 33' long so I may go for 33' wide and 12' deep horse barn design tall on middle with "lean-on" on both sides.  If the family agree to proposal plan, I could end up just building a shop without living quarter onto existing slab just to save $ and get one built real quick.  We will see.  It seems that life is always changing my direction almost every 6-8 months.. so I have to live my life as if I am a feather.  It's good but also bad..

-Ken

Jay C. White Cloud

Hi Ken,

Good luck in your endeavors. If you have those kinds of tools, and have some knowledge "kicking about," in the back of your head from an old class, you should be fine.  The wood and tools will teach you as much as many of us "instructor types."  Submit your final plans here and you will get "gobs," of feedback.  Be Careful with that "logging stuff,"  I'm the Tree Warden," for my town and have worked as an Arborist on and off for thirty years.  Tree felling can and is hazardous to one's health, be careful! When I'm teach tree rigging and felling, I mandate my students and anyone with less than ten years full time forestry/logging experience, to always place a rope in the tree to be pulled in the direction of fall.  Also, try and employ the more contemporary method of "humbolt" notch with a "bore or pass through" before making the back cut, and wedge your cut!  You can find many safety instruction on the net for good felling technique.

Regards,

Jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

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