just looking for information

[Randy1965]

A timber company recently accidentally cut the timber on the edge of my land, only about 11 acres but enough to be concerned with.  They have admitted it but I am having trouble coming up with a price to the timber that was harvested.  I have the number, types, and size of the trees, but can't find what it should be worth.  What do I charge them?  They want to just settle with me and not drag it into court or anything or deal with lawyers, and I do too but I need some direction.  Any info or help would be appreciated.  It is in west Tennessee.

[thenorthman]

Well if the dnr was to catch me logging without a permit they would charge triple stumpage, thats the diameter of the stump times 120' times three or so, than figure how many thousand of board feet and multiply by the highest going rate, its considerably more than just three times what the logger made so yes they REALLY want to settle this out of court.  State laws may vary considerably...

Any way contact the local mills or log brokers get the prices for each species and go with what you think is fair, there will be range of prices depending on grade, although an 11 acre "accident" sounds kinda shady.  If the guy seems somewhat decent and you where planning on logging anyway make him a deal, if not go for full price, he screwed up not you.

Ya know a few trees here and there I could see but 11 acres is allot of ground.

[Okrafarmer]

I would think a forester could advise you.

How is it that you have an accurate count of how many, and what types, of trees were taken? Is that because you already knew what you had, or because the logger has a record? If he "didn't know" he was on your land, then how would he be able to get an accurate tally of what logs came off your 11 acres, versus the total for the whole job?

Or maybe you counted and measured stumps, as thenorthman alluded to.

If you do have a fairly accurate estimate of what they took away, a forester should be able to tell you fairly quickly an approximate price of what it was worth. He could also shed some light on what your legal options may be.

[Woodhauler]

Make a few calls,see if this has happened before! If so, take it to them! If it was a honest mistake then have  a forester give you a estimate of stumage then tack on a few grand for the mistake! Everyone CAN MAKE a mistake, but 11 acres??????????  Maine has a law where the lines have to be marked BEFORE ANY WOOD IS CUT!!

[MJD]

In Wisconsin you can look up a person on circuit court records ( some states you cant), if this or any other shady stuff shows up I would take it to the courts or at least get what $ you think is right not his price. If you had walnut veener he could of made a lot of $$$$ cutting your timber, did he cut to a fence line? or kinda pick and choose the select trees? Cutting all the trees (good/bad) to a fence line could of been just a bad mistake on his part.

[thecfarm]

Randy1965,welcome to the forum.Probably they want to settle out of court so they won't get there names in the paper or on record. Or they are hoping you don't know the cost of logs. If you got a forester involved,they would pay that cost too,I think. Seems like I heard what thenorthman said too about 3 times. This is why I would contact the logging crew in person when others were cutting thier land. And ribbon that side off. You will get some money no matter what. Just get the right people to tell you how much.  ;)

[WDH]

First, document every thing that happens.  Hire a registered Forester to conduct a stump cruise and build a timber appraisal of the approximate value of the timber.  This needs to be done by a professional, especially if you end up in court, so you need to be prepared.  In Georgia, it has been customary for treble damages for timber trespass.  Timber trespass is where timber was inadvertently cut or cut by a mistake.  If this is the case, you cannot "take it to him" because timber trespass is not the same as criminal trespass.  With criminal trespass, you could "take it to him".  However, it would be tough to prove, and the process would wring you out.

You could send him a registered letter with the timber appraisal from the Professional Forester and ask for a settlement of triple the timber value plus the cost of having the appraisal done.  If he accepts, success.  If not, get a lawyer or settle for less if that suits you. 

I was involved in a case where we inadvertently cut 4 small loblolly pines just about 6" to 1 foot over the line.  Landowner was pithed to the point that smoke was coming out of his ears.  The calculated timber value was $45.  I did not want to go to court and figured that it would cost us about $1500 to involve our lawyer and go to small claims court.  Since the guy was so mad and acted like he was going to take us to court, I offered him $1500 as the settlement.  He laughed at me and said the the minimum he would take was $5000.  So, we went to court.

The guy represented himself as his own attorney.  He was very unprofessional.  The Judge had to tone him down a couple of times.  We told the Judge that we admitted to accidentally cutting the four small trees and had offered to settle for $1500.  The Judge asked us for the timber value.  $45.  He left, deliberated, and returned judgement.  Treble damage plus court filing cost of $25.  The total was $160.  It pays to know the law or hire a professional that does.

You deserve to compensated for the loss of your timber, plus damages.  The Forester will be able to advise you on how the calculate the value and the damages.  Good luck.   

[Kemper]

Here in western KY, which laws are pretty much exactly like TN, it's only 3 times stumpage if a person cuts the trees on purpose, not by mistake and it's almost impossible to prove it.

If it was my land and they went over the border some, I would get one or two reputable loggers in your local area, have them give you an estimate of the value of the missing timber in writing. Take that to the loggers and tack on a couple extra for your trouble. If that doesn't work contact your county attorney and let him do the work for you.

Maybe foresters in TN are better, but most in this area after budgets cuts wouldnt know valuable white oak vs pin oak. Loggers would advise you the best in my opinion. Good luck.

[beenthere]

Budget cuts wouldn't affect the foresters' knowledge of tree identification, seems to me.

Go with WDH and go with a forester who likely has already been in court to testify on behalf of a landowner. A logger may be familiar with the court too, but likely on the other side of the coin if so. ;)

[chevytaHOE5674]

Agree find a forester that is versed in Timber Trespass. They will know the state laws on what you can ask for (double/triple stumpage). They will know how to proceed with measuring the stumps and getting an estimate of volume and then be able to derive a price from that.

Depending on the timber quality and volume 11 acres is a lot of land and could tally up to quite a chunk.

[Holmes]

Welcome to the FF Randy 1965.  What state are you in?   I had a 10 acre parcel harvested and besides the saw logs they took over 30 trailer loads of wood chips to the electric co-generation plant.  That is in excess of $ 30,000 just in chips.   Did they take only logs ? I posted a formula a few months back stating the volume of chips generated in tons compared to the board feet of lumber harvested. I will look it up if needed.

[240b]

Why can't people keep their property lines clearly marked?  It just amazes me how many people either don't know what the own or where it is they own.

[Autocar]

Not sure where your located but in my opinion you don't need a forester consultant. Here in Ohio you get the state forester [ Free ] and he walks the property and you end up paying double I believe. Not sure what kind of timber you have on your property but Iam sure theres guys on here that can give you a figure on the type of wood you have.

[repmma]

My 2cents would be to go with the forester assessment.  Like what most everyone else has said, they will now the laws and should be the best to come up with a tally and value, have a couple do it, take the highest, x3 (if that fits with state law), + forester fees.  Mistakes happen but 11 acres is a lot and their mistake shouldn't cost you. 

[bill m]

Don't ask a logger and don't ask a state forester. WDH said it perfectly. A registered forester will measure and count every stump that was cut and calculate an estimate of the board footage of each type of tree. He will then calculate a value based of condition size and health of the remaining trees. 11 acres is a BIG mistake.

[Kemper]

Because of budget cuts, you have kids working in these positions & knowledge is very limited. Just my experience, you may know better in your area.

Budget cuts wouldn't affect the foresters' knowledge of tree identification, seems to me.

Go with WDH and go with a forester who likely has already been in court to testify on behalf of a landowner. A logger may be familiar with the court too, but likely on the other side of the coin if so. ;)

[Jeff]

I've got an idea, that anyone that is advising you to NOT go with a forester to handle this has

A. Never been involved in having their Timber cut mistakenly.

B. Just using their gut feeling without anything based on experience

C. They have a "friend" that cut someone else's timber, that got "drug"  into court, and found out that the only evidence a Judge will accept in a Timber Trespass case, is that that was documented and prepared and presented by a professional Forester as an expert witness and had their butt handed to them.  Now they don't like Foresters.

4. Simply do not understand the laws when it comes to timber theft

Look to the left side of the posts that have been made and look for the ones with the Forester tag on their member information. These guys are accredited Foresters who know what they are talking about. They have 4 years of college and many years of experience. Most if not all of them have been expert witnesses in just such cases and have first hand knowledge on the best way to proceed with the highest advantage and degree of success getting what is fairly coming to you.

[WH_Conley]

I am in Eastern Kentucky, same laws as Kemper. I would not think about going to court without the Forester on board.

[JohnW]

Sounds like the Hatfields and McCoys in the early years.

[Okrafarmer]

If there was ever an instance that cried out for using a certified forester, (and there is), this is it. See if you can get one with a really good reputation; chances are he / she already has experience dealing with this kind of thing.

[Ron Scott]

Follow the advice given by WDH. You need a certified professional forester to do an all resource assessment of your damages to your property. 11 acres is no small trespass so there may be a degree of negligence.

Besides the loss of your timber values, you may have damages to your soil, wildlife habitat, recreation, aesthetics, etc. that also should be accessed for compensation and/or restoration.

You should also have a certificate of survey for your property's boundary line that was violated.

[WDH]

When you are potentially dealing with Court and lawyers, you must have your act together and the documentation and the evidence is 99% of the battle.  A good lawyer for the other side of the dispute can make you look like you have no idea what you are doing.  They are trained to pick you apart.  That is why you need the registered Forester to determine the loss.   

[Ianab]

Even if you settle out of court. having an official valuation done lets you negotiate from a much stronger position. The logging company now knows you have a leg to stand on if it goes to court, and aren't just plucking number out of the air, so hopefully are more willing to make a realistic settlement.

Add the cost of the forester to your claim, it's a legitimate expense in this situation.

Ian

[thenorthman]

I'm not a forester and honestly I don't deal with em often, but they are the guys/gurlz  that will have the right answers for you.  As stated by me and many others 11 acres is not a drop in the bucket to most of us (I would do many pseudo illegal things just to get my grubby paws on 5...).  There could potentially be many thousands of dollars of timber on that land.  For a company to accidentally log it would mean they got some very bad info or they knew exactly what they where doing, which in my opinion makes it even worse.  So get yer forester, even a state forester is better than nothing, and make a plan, if you want to be nice and let them off the hook with full price or sock it to em with triple is really up to you at this point.  Just remember if they did this on purpose they will likely do it again to someone else unless somebody makes it sting bad enough.  Many lawyers do this kind of work for a chunk of the winnings by the way...

[Okrafarmer]

Now it is an entirely different discussion to figure out whether or not to hire a lawyer or to represent yourself. And whether or not to proceed to court, or to settle outside of court. I honestly don't know whether or to what degree you need a lawyer, but it is a facet of this case that we could also discuss. As others have said, 11 acres of timber is no small potatoes, especially if it was clear-cut (or high-graded).  Depending on the quality of trees, the monetary value could be as much as $1,000 per acre or more, not counting your forester and/or legal costs. (or it could be a lot less)

[mad murdock]

Now it is an entirely different discussion to figure out whether or not to hire a lawyer or to represent yourself. And whether or not to proceed to court, or to settle outside of court. I honestly don't know whether or to what degree you need a lawyer, but it is a facet of this case that we could also discuss. As others have said, 11 acres of timber is no small potatoes, especially if it was clear-cut (or high-graded).  Depending on the quality of trees, the monetary value could be as much as $1,000 per acre or more, not counting your forester and/or legal costs. (or it could be a lot less)

I'd say a lot more than 1,000/acre of timber value, unless it was planted in the last 5 years. On my tree farm, my yield is between 20-30 mbf/acre, granted, I am on prime tree growing ground in the coastal mnts of Oregon, but even a southeastern hardwood stand should be at least 5-9 mbf/acre me thinks. Even if it is firewood at $75 a cord in log length on a landing, that would be more than $1,000/acre timber value, at least I would think so. WDH is right, getting a accurate and certifiable stand assesement is key, as well as the survey, and if the logger was cutting per a contract, a copy of his contract would be helpful, so you can see where he was supposed to cut, what he was paying for what, and maybe that will shed light on his claim that it was an "honest mistake". Personally I don't think it was, unless this logger is a
Serious fly by night, something smells bad in his story to my thinking!

[Okrafarmer]

Ah, yes, you're right. Could be a lot more.

[Ianab]

Ah, yes, you're right. Could be a lot more.

Locally it could be $11,000 for ONE tree 

OK, a pretty special tree, that would take a lot of paperwork to get permission to harvest, but it does happen.

[Claybraker]

Looking a little bit further down the road, while you're dealing with a Forester, this might be a good time to update or have a management plan prepared. Especially as it relates to the 11 acres that was cut.

Was it high graded? What kind of provisions for regeneration do you need to make? TSI work? Etc. Something else you might want to discuss with him/her.

[WDH]

It is quite possible that it was not intentional.  11 acres is a lot, but a fellerbuncher can cut that much pretty quick. 

If you could prove that it was intentional, then you could go the criminal trespass route and raise the stakes.

[Okrafarmer]

Especially if one of his men knew it and is willing to testify. I would think, that in order to find that out, a police investigation would have to be made, though I'm not sure about that.

Ianab, not too many $11,000 trees around here. Maybe in California.

[beenthere]

When Randy1965 started this thread, it was his first post.
Doesn't look like he has been getting all the good information being passed on to him. That is sad.

Hope he comes back for the help he could be getting.

[Jeff]

Its only been two days. I know a lot of people that only check their email and stuff once a week.

[lumberjack48]

We were logging on a Federal block, the south line was marked with blue, meaning the Feds didn't own the joining land. We were logging the south end, cutting a beautiful patch of Jack pine, 12 to 20" on the stump, 60 to 80' tall. I saw a Reservation crew surveying the land next to us. So now i knew the land south of the blue line was Reservation land. I told the crew, we'd better ht it, jokily, before the Native Americans shut us down for cutting their stumpage.
  It wasn't an hour after i said it, 4 guys walked up to me and told me to shut it down [NOW] your cutting on Reservation land. We were told to park equipment until told different, i couldn't believe this was happing. They called the federal, they were there in about 20 minutes, arms were waving, fingers pointing, it was quit a powwow. They were back the next day with a crew, measuring every stump and surveying a new line with the Federal surveyors.
Then they talked to me, it was a surveying mistake, that i wasn't stealing their stumpage. I was able to move on the other end of the block, it was safe to log there.
  A Ranger came out two days later, he told me the Reservation charged them triple stumpage, they were happy to pay that to settle it, with out any court procedures. All of this had no reflect back on me, but it was scary.

[240b]

Had same experience as Lumberjack48. Bought timber sale from forester, all marked wood. After unit was cut but sale was still on going the abutter had their land surveyed for subdivision.(totally unrelated to timber sale)
It was what the survey crew called "a wandering line"(old barb wire fence). The first thing the surveyor told me was don't worry. You just bought the wood and the contract (which I had in truck) put all the liability on the sellers. In the end the landowners swapped some similar land (uncut) with each other. Never did hear anything else about it.  My rule is to speak with the abutters regardless of what the seller tells me. Some jobs with hostile neighbors are just not worth the risk of doing.
     Now, one of my neighbors, not only had their timber cut, but the mill (yes, a sawmill did this) sold the land to somebody else. That was a mess. Talk about a parade of foresters and surveyors tramping around the neighborhood. In the end the rightful owner lost half HIS land and the mill owner settled out of court with the parties. He knew he was screwed. The whole thing had something to do with adverse possession. I was pretty steamed for awhile, the survey crews cut sight lines across my land, though my maple regen and were pretty thoughtless about being on someone elses property.Which they have a right to, but how about being courteous to people. Thats why landowners and any one else working on any kind of property needs to KNOW where they are at.

[Okrafarmer]

We've had it come up in an urban / suburban setting where we were taking trees down for people. Once a wild lady came up to us, flabergasting about how her neighbor (who had us do the work) didn't know where the line was, and we were cutting down her trees. We stopped, found the owner, and he said, no they are definitely his trees, and he got out the deed record and showed her that he did indeed own that little patch of land. She was embarrassed that she had acted out. He told us later that it was not the first little issue he had had with her.  :-\

[Okrafarmer]

When Randy1965 started this thread, it was his first post.
Doesn't look like he has been getting all the good information being passed on to him. That is sad.

Hope he comes back for the help he could be getting.

He may be one of the people who just likes to read and doesn't say a whole lot. I've found there are quite a few of those people hanging around the Forum from time to time. We've given him some good info, and maybe he's out there running with it.

[Okrafarmer]

Other people are interested though, I checked just now, and two unregistered guests are looking at this thread along with me at the moment.

A lot of people read these things and don't comment, many don't even register.  ;)

[redprospector]

Its only been two days. I know a lot of people that only check their email and stuff once a week.

I didn't realize that you knew me personally.  :D  I only check my regular mail once a week, or so. Unless I'm expecting a check.

Andy

[Jeff]

Urban trees are a different animal so to speak in value to a woods tree when it comes to timber theft or accidental cutting or intentional removal. In an Urban setting, you may get into landscape value. With landscape value, the value may be equal to what it would take to replace what was taken. For example, what do you think it would take to put a 40 foot 40 year old landscape specimen back? Or a whole row of them?  You might be talking tens of thousands when it comes to that.

[Okrafarmer]

You're absolutely right, Jeff. And you sure don't want to cut a lawyer's tree down by accident! 

Or a police officer, judge, or city council member.  >:(

[WDH]

Boundary line agreements are a good idea if there is any doubt about where the property line is.  It is a simple letter signed by both parties that they are agreeing on where the line is in relation to a timber harvest.  Many times it is only a flagged line.  Simple to do, and if an issue arises, you know it before any trees are felled.