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Is Tight, tight Enough?

Started by Charles135, November 20, 2012, 02:38:25 PM

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Charles135

I ran into a problem yesterday sawing.  I have been sawing only yellow pine since I got the mill running.  Yesterday, I got the wise idea to saw some hardwood. Thinking it would be smart to run a test piece before jumping into a good piece, I tossed on a 6 foot by 6inch stick of Sourwood which has almost the same density of Hickory.  I started into the log and once it the blade was almost halfway into the log the blade began to spin on the arbor shaft.  I tightened the arbor nut up again and continued to saw, but the blade slipped again.  I did not have this problem with any of my pine and some it had twice the diameter.  I am using a 2 foot long wrench to tighten my arbor nut.  Am I just not getting the nut tight enough or is something else going on?
Thanks for your thoughts?
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Magicman

Sounds like the stress is closing the kerf behind the saw teeth.  I have had that several times within the past week when cutting a 1X12 SYP board to length with a 7¼" Skilsaw.  A couple of times I had the devil getting the blade out.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

beenthere

Collar on right?
Can you see the kerf narrowing like from stress? If so, does putting a wedge in help?

Do you have the right lead?

Is the saw blade heating up?

Is the lead set right?

Dilema for sure. Hope you (or we help)  find the answer.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Charles135

Magicman and Beenthere,
The kerf didn't look to be closing.  The blade is heading up but only within a few inches of the collar I think due to it slipping. 
Not sure what you mean by "lead"?
Thanks
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

dgdrls

Charles 135,

Simply lead is the amount the saw blade is out of parallel with the carriage.
Search for the USFS G5600 guide,  also look to Menominee saw  they help support this show,
Also too tight is no good either.

Best
DGDrls

beenthere

Charlie
Here is a good primer for circular saws and setting them up to run and things that need attention.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf

DGD
QuoteSearch for the USFS G5600 guide

Any more specifics on this guide? I too searched and found nothing. Pls. help.

There is an Ag Handbook "Small Sawmill Operators Handbook" by Telford that is old, but likely useful information.
http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/CAT87208435/PDF
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Charles135

Dgdrls,
That maybe the problem!   I have 0 lead.  My head saw is perfectly parallel with the carriage.  I have been unable thus far to find the USFS guide, but I am still looking.  If anyone has the guide or a link for it I would really appreciate it!  Does anyone have a general idea of what direction the lead needs to be , in as in # of degrees toward the front or back?
Also, does the lead need to be only front to back or does the saw need to have top to bottom angle too?
Thanks everyone!
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Sprucegum

Top to bottom should be perfectly straight 90 degrees to your carriage. Front to back your front should "lead" in to your log - maybe 1/32 of an inch. Every saw is a bit different and sometimes every species of log is a bit different  ??? ya gotta play with it  ;)

Ron Wenrich

What kind of saw are you running?  There aren't any shear pins on the collar?  I've never used a mill that ran with a slip collar like it seems you are describing.  All the ones I have run have the shear pins.  On those, you don't want to tighten the arbor nut too tight, as it smashes the collars. 

Lead is when you angle your saw slightly, and is done on an arbor bearing.  Basically, the end that the log starts into the saw is a little farther ahead of the rear of the saw.  If your saw is shooting a rooster tail up from the tail of the saw, you don't have enough lead.  It can be as small as 1/32nd of an inch to 1/16th of an inch.

The way to measure lead is to take all the pressure off the saw by opening up the saw guide.  Then mark a tooth on the saw with a crayon or something.  Measure the distance from the outside of the saw tooth to a headblock.  Do that on the feed side.  Then, rotate the saw 180° and measure to the same headblock.  You'll have to move the carriage ahead.  The difference between the front measurement to the rear measurement would be your lead.

If the front measures 12" and the back measures 12 1/16", then you have 1/16" lead.  If it measures 12" in the front and 11 15/16", then you have a negative lead and the log is running into your saw while you are trying to saw.  That will bind it up and will heat up the saw.

What's the condition of the teeth?  A dull saw or improperly sharpened saw won't saw very well.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Charles135

Beenthere,
thanks for the links.  I still haven't found anything on the USFS guide. 

Ron,
Its a Belsaw M-14, and has no shear pins.  Thanks for the help, I will be out after work tomorrow adjusting my lead.  I hope this will help, it certainly can't hurt. 
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

dgdrls

http://extension.missouri.edu/publications/DisplayPub.aspx?P=G5600

this is as close as I can get right now, Its an extension document not USFS, sorry! The Stan Lundstrum guide posted by Beenthere,
is a good one too.
also this link http://www.sawdoc.com/troubleshooter.htm#BAD%20COLLARS
DGDdrls

b dukes

I have the manual for the M14 in PDF form if you are interested. It covers setup and lead adjustment.

irvi00

I'm in the same boat as Ron, never seen a circular mill without pins. So I assume the nut and collar bear all the weight when sawing? I just can't wrap my head around a circular mill with no "direct" power transmission. But again, I only speak of what I know.

Charles135

irvi00,
I have looked at others and none of the m14's i've seen have pins.  I looked real close this moring and it looks factory with no pins.  There is no indication of a switch of the collar, nor are there pin wholes in the blade. 
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Charles135

b dukes,
the manual would be great! I sent you a message with an email if you will email it at your convenience I would greatly appreciate it. 
charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Charles135

Just a quick update.  I put about a 1/16th lead into the blade and that fixed my problem perfectly.  The mill cuts hardwood like butter and it's even cutting my yellow pine better too!   Thanks for all the info guys!
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

b dukes

Check your email. I sent you all the manuals I had and a parts list that the guys at TimberKing sent me. The list contains the parts for the M14 they had left , the list is about 6 months old.

Glad to see you have your problem worked out.

Now where's the pics of your mill and that wood your cutting?

dgdrls

Great new!! 

I'm with   b_dukes,  photos  :)

DGDrls

Charles135

I will take photos tomorrow and get them uploaded baring no rain here!
Thanks again guys!
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Meadows Miller


Glad to see you got it sorted Mate  ;) ;D 8) I have run a couple of homemade benches made out of what was avv and they had the wrong thread for the way the saw was running you always knew when you had overfeed it  The bloody saw would come loose :) ;) :D :D
4TH Generation Timbergetter

Charles135

Meadows,
I would hate to see a 100 pound, 46" saw coming down range because the arbor nut came loose!  I hope that never happens.
Now that I have the mill operational I am looking to see what safety features I have and where I need to beef them up or add in general!
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Ron Wenrich

I've had arbor nuts come loose, but never fall off.  It usually happens when something hangs below the carriage and you rub the log against it.  Its better than having them get too tight. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Charles135

Ron,
Obviously, the nut tightens in the opposite direction of the blade rotation so that it would get tighter and not loosen, but what would or could cause the nut to get over tightened other than human input?
Charlie
Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

Meadows Miller

Gday

They never came rite of like Ron said  ;)

with the bench saws picture in your mind an oversize table saw about 3'6" to5' wide and 3'6" to 6' long with a heavy steel plate table with a 26" to48" saw with the most common saw size being 30" to 36" and a gauge at the font edge and rollers either power feed or dead front n back because the top is 1/4 to1/2 inch plate which only finishes about 1/4 to 1/2 of the sawplate and it has Packers or Saw guides two at the front and back so there is nowhere for the saw to go really just sits the n flops around  ;) :D :)

Like i said those where homemade jobs that should have had the rite hand saw boss n collars when Benches  are built properly you never have any dramas  ;) ;D 8)

Regards Chris
4TH Generation Timbergetter

Charles135

Charlie
Foley Belsaw M-14, JD MT, Massey Harris 44, F-30 Farmall, A JD, 3203 JD, 5300 JD, JD 4039 Power Unit
Serving the Thin Blue Line Since 1998

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