Impact of Bar Size

[lowpolyjoe]

Hey,

I've got my Rancher  455 running its stock 20" bar.  I'll be attempting to rip some boards out of some logs (a one time hobby project).

How much impact on the saw's performance will it make to go down to an 18" bar?  I don't think any of the logs i'm ripping are more than 18" diameter.  My saw is underpowered for this job and i'm looking to eek out any additional performance i can.  I want to try a different chain and i'm considering the Oregon thin kerf 95VPX + bar as suggested to me by another member.  Oregon claims this design is easier on the saw.

I'm so frustrated by the Oregon site.  I used their 'finder' to locate the chain/bar combo pack i want.  Then i try to actually buy it and there's no online vendors listed.  I visited a local shop Oregon listed as a dealer and they don't stock anything. 
... Ah... Jack's Small Engines website to the rescue!

Thanks,
Joe

[beenthere]

Joe

How much impact on the saw's performance will it make to go down to an 18" bar?

If you are just cutting 18" wood, then the bar length seemingly wouldn't make any difference to performance.

[AdkStihl]

http://www.baileysonline.com/

[AdkStihl]

Your 455 will thank you for running an 18" B&C combo.

[shelbycharger400]

the 455 dosnt rev that much for what it is, you wont get optimum ripping/shearing speed with the chain.
Husky/Jonsered saws I have to buy bars from the dealer and I can get almost anything . They have some bars on hand , if I have to order something its only a day or 2 before its their. I have had parts ordered from the factory in less than 7 days I had them. 

95xps   is .325 chain.  If you have 3/8 which Is also on the 455 at my parents house with a 20 in bar , you will have to change the drive sprocket.

Chainsawr to the right also sells bars I see, same price or some are bit cheaper than other places.   

The saw shops will charge freight for parts ordered, even comming from their parts warehouse with their standard delivery.   For a mill im planning on building,  a 5 foot bar is around $500,  with around $50 just for freight.

[Al_Smith]

You can rip with a little saw but you're going to have to take it slow .Keep the thing sharp and hit it at about a 45 degree angle .Do what you want but rip chain won't help you just make a smoother cut .

Just don't lean on it so hard you bog the saw down to about stall speed .Keep the r's up and you'll make it through .

[lowpolyjoe]

Thanks for the link AdkStihl.    Good supplier

As it turns out, i found the combo i wanted after looking around on the Oregon site and Jack's Small Engine site.  I copied the model number and searched Amazon and found a vendor with 1 left for a good price, so i ordered it.... my wife has amazon prime so i got 1day shipping for a couple of bucks.  Was hoping to get it tomorrow so i could get some work done over the Thanksgiving holiday.

shelby - this is the kind of thing that frustrates a noob like myself... i didn't realize the drive sprocket size had to match the bar.  I thought it was just the bar and the chain that had to match eachother.   To find out which i have, do i just measure?  Are the .325 and 3/8 the actual values (ie. a 2x4 is not actually 2" by 4")?   Or will this be written on the bar?  I don't expect it to be in the book for the saw because the specs online say it can come with either and i assume the manual is generic.

How tough is a sprocket replacement?  I've done a little wrenching on a few engines but i'm not that skilled.   This looks like what i need ?

http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=ORF+513472X&catID=

I see the warning that the bearing is not included.  Can i reuse the one currently in my saw or do i need a new one?  I see a custom clutch removal tool too.  DanGit... this $50 bar/chain combo is going to end up costing me $100!!! :'(    :D


Al - yeah, that's what i've been hearing.    I free-hand ripped a 20+ foot long pine a couple weeks ago with this saw... slow and steady... emphasis on the *slow*.   

[JohnG28]

Take Al's advice, the angle makes the cutting easier for sure.  ;)

[shelbycharger400]

as far as the bearing, I think it would be the same.  Dont forget to lube the bearing when you put it back together.   I used moly grease on mine.
When I switched the Jonsered 630 from a pro spur to a Rim drive, but still 3/8  I went to the saw shop and bought the kit, came with everything to switch over drum, hub,bearing, and the washer and dust seal, I like to say it was 30 or 40 bux.   Mine had a 3/4 nut machined into the clutch hub. I pulled out the spark plug, stuck a length of 1/2 in rope in their, and turned the engine over clockwise I think, and with a bit of force it came loose.

3/8 or 325,   the tang that sits in the bar grove coresponds to chain type , or you can measure between 3 rivits divided by 2. Most bars are marked, but not all.

[Al_Smith]

Now you can do what you want but why toss a bunch of money to get a bar and chain and rip one log with it ?

So it's either got 3/8" chain .325  I'd about bet the latter .On a consumer saw I'd about bet guard chain semi chisel .So it doesn't cut as fast but it will cut .

Oh you know you can get all kinds of good advice like buying a 3120 with a rip chain and really go to town rippng but you got 2 grand in doing that and believe me even with that much saw it ain't fast .I've ripped with saws with just about as much soup as big Huskey and they aren't fast either so save your money .Go with what you got . ;)

[hamish]

You cant get a small mount bar larger than 20".  Milling be it with an 18" or 20" bar will make no difference.  The kerf taken with a 3/8 chain vs .325 chain, vs 3/8 lo pro os negligible.  The biggest factor in chainsawmilling is how its done and the sharpness of the chain. 

Are you planning on freehand milling?  If so not mush is going to help you.

Using a csm? Chain sharpness and feedrate are the key.


The 455 actually revs higher than most commonly used milling powerheads (385/390/395/3120).  The higher hp saws are very rev limited and have lower max rpms and achieve there cutting via torque vs rpm.

The 455 will work fine, just dont push it, watch your engine temperatures and chain sharpness.

[lowpolyjoe]

Well - i had a 50/50 chance of having the right drive sprocket... which means, of course... that i had the wrong one. 



I figured i'd just return this bar-chain combo and order a 3/8 version, but seems that no such variant exists.  Shelby, what did you use as a piston stop?   Looked like you said 1/2" rope?  Is that right?  The piston stop tools i see available are all metal and this how-to video (which was very helpful) also uses a metal tool.  Seems like you could stick just about anything in there that's not going to break under pressure or fall in the cylinder.  Large allen key maybe?  But i suppose anything with a sharp edge could score the top of the piston?  Maybe wrap the head of the allen key?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdqkIuVNUQc

This looks like this might be what i need if i want to try the switch to 0.325 and go rim-drive

http://www.oregonproducts.com/pro/products/sprockets/sprockets_powermate_system.htm

I did some reading and some people suggest 0.325 for smaller saws... ~50cc or smaller.  I'm right at the edge powerwise.  Not sure if i should do the sproket conversion or just return the bar/chain combo i ordered... :-\

Some of the other things Al and Hamish brought up...

This is a one time saw-mill project because i'm trying to make something out of a tree that fell in our yard recently.  I bought a Beam Machine because it's cheap.   I don't expect i'll be milling much else, but i do sometimes rip logs down the center freehand to make mountain biking obstacles.  I'd like to make the most of my saw with a good chain and bar. 

I'm still a little confused - some people make it sound like running an 18" bar is easier on the saw than a 20" bar.  That makes some sense to me since the shorter chain should be lighter... like running lighter rims on a car.  But others make it sound like there will be no difference if you're cutting the same piece of wood?   

Thanks for all the feedback so far,
Joe

[lowpolyjoe]

ah yes... i see other people using rope as well for the piston stop.... makes sense

[NCFarmboy]

For a one time project I personally would not go through the expense involved.  As Al said 45* angle, go slow, sharp chain.
Shep

[Al_Smith]

A couple inchs of bar length won't make any difference .Now don't rush out and hang a 36" bar on the thing now because that won't work .It'll pull it but it will balk big time .

What you have there is a standard 3/8" .050 72 drive length 20" usable bar length .Standard size for most modern saws .If it doesn't have already a chisel chain ,no guard type it will cut better with one but that's your choice .That item won't  break the bank .

[lowpolyjoe]

Thanks for the breakdown Al.

Seems impossible to find husky parts near me.  Visited/contacted 5 or 6 places.  Only place with any stock at all was Lowes, and no sprocket kit there.  I'm leaning towards returning the bar/chain kit.  I already had a file but i just picked up the filing jig kit.  Maybe a better sharpening metchod will give me some better results with my current chain.

One last hope for the bar/chain i picked up - i still have my old ryobi saw but i can't use it because the bar was destroyed.  I'm betting that has a .325 sprocket.  All i have to match is the pitch and the tooth count (7 vs 8 ) right?   If the new kit happens to fit on that saw, maybe i'll keep it as a backup

Thanks,
Joe

[AdkStihl]

Dont ever use a metal piston stop. You will end up with a hole in the top of the piston. I use a length of starter rope.

[lowpolyjoe]

Dont ever use a metal piston stop. You will end up with a hole in the top of the piston. I use a length of starter rope.

That makes perfect sense the more i think about it.  I'm amazed the official tool sold for the job seems to be a metal 'fake spark plug'.  I suppose they round off the tip where the tool contacts the piston, but still... seems like a dangerous practice.  If i give it a shot i'll definitely use some rope.

Another interesting tidbit i picked up from a how-to video was that when screwing the clutch back on and tightening it up, you should remove the pull-starter.  The guy said the tightening action (and i guess the possible initial movement of the piston before it's arrested by the rope/piston stop?) can stress the pull-starter.  I think he was working on a Poulan - not sure if this is common to all saws or if it's even truth, but if i ever do this i will definitely check if the flywheel tries to strain the pull-stater when screwing the clutch back on.

Thanks,
Joe

[Al_Smith]

Well sir your education shall now begin on the finer points of chainsawoligy and saw  chain metrics .Some would allude it's rocket science but nothing could be further from the truth ,more common sense than anything although common sense doesn't seem to prevail in this day and time  .

To the simple matter of using a rope for a piston stop  ,best you can find . Better than nylon and certainly better than a blunt pointed chunk of steel to punch a hole in the piston .To keep from breaking the starter rope or recoil just pull the rope out a tad before you block the piston up .Easy as pie .

[lowpolyjoe]

Happy Thanksgiving.

Had a little time to kill before holiday dinner so i broke out my new sharpening jig to give it a shot.  Really seems like it makes a difference.  It holds the file more against the top of the tooth than i had been previously without the jig.  And the Husky file (came in the kit) seems to take off more material per stroke than the cheaper file i had been using.  Hoping to do some cutting tomorrow to see if there's any difference.

Unfortunately i couldn't use the other part of the jig to set the raker height.  The rakers on my chain are bent at the top, not straight, so they didn't fit in the jig.  Are those curved rakers what makes a chain 'low kickback'?  Or is it unrelated?

Hope the holiday went well for everbody.

Take care,
Joe

[John Mc]

I'm convinced those bent rakers are just something to keep a homeowner from getting carried away filing down the rakers.  Once you've worn that chain out, there are better cutting chains you can can put on that saw.

[lowpolyjoe]

Thanks John.  I actually filed down the top of the bent rakers a little bit.  I just can't use the gauge.  After improved sharpening technique using the jig and taking a tiny bit off the rakers the saw was cutting better than ever today. 

I ordered a new drive sprocket the other day so i can try out the micro-lite bar and chain i ordered earlier this week.  After cutting some boards today with the 20" bar and *just" making it through the wood - i'm thinking the 18" bar might not cut the mustard...   I'll have to adjust my DIY saw mill setup but even still i'm not sure how an 18" will fare with my 14-16" logs running the Beam Machine (which eats up an inch or so of bar)

[lowpolyjoe]

Even though i'm starting to see that an 18" bar might give me some problems (depth wise) i can't resist trying out the new bar/chain i ordered a couple weeks ago.   The new .325 drive sprocket came in the mail at the beginning of the week and i installed it with the new bar/chain this morning before work.  Had a tough time getting the clutch off...  it was on there good and tight.  But the saw was reassembled and running before i left for my day job.   Unfortunately no time to make a test cut  >:(    :D

Probably have to wait for the weekend to see it in action.  Looking forward to it

[lowpolyjoe]

Wow - saw cuts really fast with the new micro-lite setup   8) 

18" bar is a little restricting tho because it does turn out to be a bit too short for my material.

having problems with my makeshift sawing table setup so i'll have to rework it before moving on anyway. 

[Ohio_Bill]

My favorite bar and chain on a 50 cc saw is  325 narrow keff   18 inch . I have used both Oregon  95 vp and Baileys / Carlton's  20nk . I have this combo on a Stihl 260 and a Husky 346 . 

[lowpolyjoe]

I don't have too much experience, but I would absolutely recommend the setup i'm using now.  Just so the details are easy to find for anyone reading this thread in the future:

Oregon 18-Inch Micro-Lite Bar & 95VP .050-Inch Gauge, Low Kickback Saw Chain Combo 108580
http://www.amazon.com/Oregon-Micro-Lite-050-Inch-Kickback-108580/dp/B0003J1D3G

And that requires a 7-tooth, .325 drives sprocket that i got for my 455 Rancher (which came with a 3/8" stock sprocket) here:

http://www.edgeandengine.com/store/ore-513472x.html

Only used it for 2 days so far so i can't comment on durability, but it sure cuts fast  ;D

[beenthere]

And what are your plans to sharpen it? Have you sharpened it since putting it on?
Need any help or suggestions? Or do you know how?

Enjoyed some of your biking videos. What camera do you use to record those action shots?
And what hospital do you go to....  ;D

[lowpolyjoe]

I bought a cheap set of files a while back because it was on sale.  It happened to have the correct size for this chain.  I gave the new chain a few rounds of touchup this weekend while i was working with it since i was ripping boards.  It stayed pretty sharp with little sharpening effort.

I might look for a sharpening guide/jig for this setup because i noticed buying one helped me get my old chain a bit sharper.    Also might buy a nicer round file because, to my amazement, a nicer file actually does seem to make a difference.  There are file kit reference numbers on the packaging.  I might order one.

Glad you enjoyed the biking footage    I really got into it this past summer but all my buddies got injured by the end of the season so it kind of took the fun out of it.  I bought a GoPro Hero 2 for filming.  Some of the footage is using a vest chest-mount, some has the camera mounted low on the frame of the bike, and some might be from a helmet attachment.   The trails are in northern NJ and the Yonkers, NY area.

I've filmed a lot of my chainsaw mill action with the same camera.... i threw together a quick video last night that you saw in another thread.  I'm hoping to do a better job editing and put up a better demonstration video for people to see the Beam Machine in action.