Anvils

[Radar67]

I picked up a Trenton Anvil over the weekend. It was made in 1900 and weighs 153 pounds. Who ever had it last, painted it green. I used a wire brush on it to get some of the paint off, but can't get in some of the imperfect areas. It is solid wrought steel. Can I sand blast it? I hate it when people paint perfectly good antiques trying to make them pretty.

They also tried to grind down the surface  >:( I will have to check into getting it surfaced to bring the edges back. (I hate having to do this as well, but it is almost not usable with rounded over edges). Any thoughts or suggestions on this?

[Al_Smith]

Try a little paint remover like marine zipstrip .The time you get it stripped if you want a little patinna just sit it outside for a while .

Don't feel so sad I've seen Peter Wright anvils one of the most sought after having the horns beat flat on the end from unknowing people over the last one hundred years abushing  them .Once again proving it is truely possible to destroy an anvil with a feather given enough time .

[fuzzybear]

I had the same thing on an anvil I got at a yard sale.  Build yourself a good fire outside and put the anvil in. the heat will strip the paint and raise it in the dinged areas. let it cool then wire brush the heck out of it.  Resurfacing I always did myself with a small grinder.  Take your time and never let the grinder sit in one area. Make full passes taking a little at a time.  The last one I resurfaced took about 4 hours till I got it down to what I thought was close to level then I started sanding by hand to remove the grinder marks and finish leveling it.  All together it took about a week to refinish.
  Is yours a country or town anvil?   I prefer a country anvil for the sharp ring it has.  The town anvils sound like a dull clang.
FB

[Al_Smith]

A real good Smith not to be confused with this Smith as in Al can tell by the ring and rebound what's good and not so good .My name however did originate due to fact the entire family back in England were blacksmiths ,armorers and machinests .

The Peter Wright anvil and several others were a swedged fit steel top over a wrought iron base.

For those interested a good place on line to find info about anvils ,how to refurbish them etc  might look at  http://www.anvilfire.com/

[Radar67]

Fuzzybear, it rings like a school bell. My neighbors are going to hate me when I start using it. Thanks to both of you for the information. I will get pictures later to add to this post.

[grweldon]

It is solid wrought steel. Can I sand blast it? I hate it when people paint perfectly good antiques trying to make them pretty.

There is nothing stopping you from sandblasting it... it won't damage it, however, it will come out with a very un-natural grey look to it that is the result.  I've never seen it done, but I've heard that blasting with walnut shells won't do that...

[Al_Smith]

Fuzzybear, it rings like a school bell. My neighbors are going to hate me when I start using it.

Well that's one way to get your evens if they play loud music until the wee hours of the morning .Head banging stuff or  Lawrence Welk .Just ding the anvil about 6:30 AM some Saturday morning to see how their head feels .That would be mean though come to think of it .

[ely]

i have a PW anvil that was redone by my bestest friend, he does all sorts of things like that.

[Slabs]

Why is it that I hear Anvil Chorus playing in the back of my mind?

[thecfarm]

153 pounds??  I have a small one compared to yours. I have no idea what kind it is. Might weight 60-80 pounds??

[SwampDonkey]

Dad had one here on the farm. But it went with the farm when he sold it. It was more like Cfarms weight and size. Dad fixed and welded his own stuff most of the time. The neighbor had a forge, that was a cool rig.  8)

[Radar67]

It is definitely a two man lift and carry tool. I can lift it, but my back may revolt on me if I do. The man I got this from had a PW listed (150 pound) and had a Hay Budden (85 pound) he sold the night before. He also had another one on his truck, similar to a Mouse Hole, think he said it was an Atlas.

I may give the walnut or corn cob media a try on this. I can always put it in the fire if that doesn't work.

[Al_Smith]

I've seen 300 pounders but they are rare as a hens tooth and old .The largest Peter Wright I've seen was around a 200 also rare .

They used to fetch about a dollar a pound but the big ones fetched more per pound. I haven't a clue what they go for now .

I've made do with a homemade anvil made of high crown heavy crane rail which I burned out myself once from a revamp job in a steel mill in Mansfield Ohio .Fact during that maintainance turn around I must have cut out a dozen 15 of them .One for the job superintendant as a matter of fact . 8)

[Radar67]

I have a small RR track anvil I picked up at a swap meet a little while back. It probably weights 35 or 40 pounds. I also have a length of rail I was considering for an anvil. i think I will leave it as is for now.

[DanG]

I have a big ol' anvil that has been passed down through our family for several generations.  I know my GGGrandaddy was a previous owner, and his Daddy probably was too.  I decoded the numbers on it once.  I'm thinking it came out to 177 pounds, but memory is fuzzy.  I know you ain't likely to walk off with it without some help.

[Radar67]

The number system is easy, now that I know it. The number system was mainly on the English Anvil. The first number is the Hundred Weight, a 1 = 112 pounds, the second is the quarter hundred weight, a 1 = 28 pounds (one fourth of the first number), the third number is the actual pounds, a 5 = 5 pounds. In this example the anvil would weight 135 pounds.

DanG, it is a good thing to be able to know the history of your anvil. 

[Magicman]

Now I am going to have to go out back and look at my anvil.  I did not know that it might have a name and numbers.

[Al_Smith]

They made anvils in more shapes and sizes than you can shake a stick at .Itty bitty ones used my artisans for jewelery type metal work  ,old blacksmith types some with double horns to hot work horse shoes .Big giant things for forge welding heavy steel .

They was an account of a steamboat captain on the Mississippi that somehow snapped the main 8" shaft  on the river boat .They somehow got the shaft removed and had it forge welded by using two forges and heating both sides and swinging them  in place with chain falls over a giant anvil with 4 men beating with 10 pound hammers .It held .

[Magicman]

Radar, I'm missing something in your example.  I get 145 pounds.

My anvil has been used, abused, and neglected.  I put ( ) where I had no idea what the letter was, and (U) when I thought that was the correct letter, but it may not be.  And some of the letters that I think are correct may not be.

M & ( )
(M)ITA(G)(E)
( )O(U)SE

0 .  3 . 25

So I guess that my anvil weighs 0+(28X3)+25= 109 pounds.

[doctorb]

My daughter weighs 109 pounds, but I am not going to go looking for any numbers/letters code to verify it. :D

[Shotgun]

Here's a thread about anvils from 2005 that might add some information to the current thread.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,12319.0.html

I have one too, that is pictured in the provided thread.

Norm

[Radar67]

Radar, I'm missing something in your example.  I get 145 pounds.

M & ( )
(M)ITA(G)(E)
( )O(U)SE

0 .  3 . 25

So I guess that my anvil weighs 0+(28X3)+25= 109 pounds.

My math was off, it was 145 pounds.

Do some research on the Mousehole anvils. I think that is what you have and 109 is the correct weight on it.

[Magicman]

Wow, Terry, I now know that I have an M&H  ARMITAGE  MOUSE HOLE anvil that was manufactured in Sheffield, England, and weighs 109 pounds.  I also printed out some information that may even date my anvil.  I had no idea that there was even marking stamped on the side until I went and looked.

[Magicman]

Looking at Dan Shade's anvil in Shotgun's link above, Reply #34, I found my anvil's mate.

[thecfarm]

I'll have to do some checking too.

[Al_Smith]

My daughter weighs 109 pounds, but I am not going to go looking for any numbers/letters code to verify it. :D

:D I think mine weighs 106 but she started out as 4 pounds 2 ounces and 17 inchs long some 36 years ago .

Seems uncanny, me at 6 foot 225 and her momma 5 foot and 105-110 .Short and little won that race or so it seems .

[Radar67]

Magic, I may be wrong on this, but I have read somewhere that the Mousehole was one of the first anvils to ever be made.

This is an excerpt from "The American Blacksmith" September 1914

Anvil making as an industry was first stated at the Mousehole Forge, Sheffield England. How long ago there is no authentic record but of well over 200 years anvils have been made for the trade at the Mousehole Forge, which for two centuries at least, was the only works of its kind in the world. The first of whom there is a record of having operated the Mousehole Forge in anvil making is the family of Sir John Burgoyne. Then Cockshutt and Armitage, and following them came M. and H. Armitage who operated the forge for over 100 years, The present owners, Brooks and Cooper, have run the works for upwards of 38 years , and are still making anvils that are hard to beat either in quality, shape or workmanship. Although there are now a number of concerns making anvils both in England and America, the Mousehole Forge is unique in several respects. They were the first to make any attempt at standardizing the shape of the anvils and they operate their forge to this day with no other power than that developed by an old fashioned water wheel.

For well over a century there has been practically no change made at the Mousehole Forge. the same old-fashioned helve hammer, or "metal helve" as it is locally termed is still doing duty and is operated by the already mentioned water wheel. The building itself, with its old fashioned solid stone walls and low arched windows and doorways, shows but slight signs of the ravages usually worked by time and are apparently good,. barring misfortune, for centuries to come.

[SwampDonkey]

:D I think mine weighs 106 but she started out as 4 pounds 2 ounces and 17 inchs long some 36 years ago .

Seems uncanny, me at 6 foot 225 and her momma 5 foot and 105-110 .Short and little won that race or so it seems .

I have a cousin born at 2 lb 6oz, now over 300. If that counts for anything. ;D

[Magicman]

Radar, I did not have a chance to try and date mine today, but I have the information printed out.  Maybe in the morning.  I am blown away to find out that my anvil came from the first ever anvil factory.   

[Okrafarmer]

You also have a sawmill made at the first ever portable band sawmill factory, right? And a tractor built in the factory that built the first tractor-- or first to be called a tractor.

[Okrafarmer]

Magic, you are just a classic and original sort of guy. 

[Al_Smith]

Anvil talk .About 10-12 years ago there was a local auction of the works of an artisian type smith .Made huge door hinges etc for high end specialty doors on million dollar houses etc .They listed several anvils including a miscatalogged 500 pounder which was a 300 in reality .

There must have been nearly 100 hardy hole tools ,more than I've ever seen in my life any where .Kegs full of new horseshoes and 50 interested blacksmiths that came from three states away .This guy had a forge that was 5 feet square and must have held 100-150 pounds of petrolium coke on  each firing .

Would you believe there was a 200 pound anvil in that 50 tons of iron with the heel broken off starting  from the hardy hole .Must have been a giant swinging a big hammer to break an anvil is all I could figure . I'll bet they called him sir .

[thecfarm]

I still have to check for numbers on it. We never really used ours much. It really only got used during mowing season to put the sections on. I would hold one end of the knife when my Father would pound the rivets down. Memories.  ;D

[Al_Smith]

We had a little piece of railroad iron we used for that .I got pretty good at breaking them so I got pretty good of changing them .

I'll tell ya this when a hay mower and a woven wire fence tangle the fence wins .A steel post will do a number on them too .

[thecfarm]

My Father always talked about getting a small piece of rail,but never did get one.

[Magicman]

More exciting information about my anvil.  The markings on the side indicate that my anvil was indeed in the first generation of MOUSE HOLE anvils and was manufactured between 1820 and 1835.

[Al_Smith]

Now is that mousehole a wrought anvil or lamenated top steel like a Peter Wright ?

[Magicman]

I have no idea.  A week ago, I did not even know what a MOUSE HOLE was.  I never realized that an anvil could have traceable history.  My research is only beginning.

[Magicman]

I might add that it does have a very nice "ring".  I have the old "post" vice, bellows, and other stuff at the farm.  I need to build a blacksmith shop.....sigh. 

[Al_Smith]

Blacksmithing is one of my varied and numerious interests ,partly because I like it and partly because of my family history .

I "googled " worlds largest anvil .Supposedly the largest "traditional " anvil was a German made example of 960 pounds .However there was one of 1400 pounds exibited by some company from Trenton NJ at the worlds exposition of 1872 or 1876 .Evidently cast steel with a plate steel forged top like a Peter Wright .

Now there's a gent from Texas who  built a giant of giants welded steel monster of 5280 pounds with a picture .Lawdy you could use that thing to anchor a battle ship .

[Magicman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkUGTkUcWIA

[Al_Smith]

Some of those iron pounders can really get that rytheme down pat .I never could ,the danged hammer would bounce sideways and try to smack me in the knee ,not good .

[beenthere]

We used to have a blacksmithing lady on the Forum.
Don't have the memory cells working to remember her name but will give a shot at finding her.

[beenthere]

Thanks to Shotgun, it was Darla, wife of FF member Ernie_Edwards.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,20837.msg296926.html#msg296926

[thecfarm]

Magicman,we need a picture!!! I need to drag mine out. Been a busy day here with food.

[Okrafarmer]

Magicman,we need a picture!!! I need to drag mine out. Been a busy day here with food.

Did somebody say
FOOD?

[thecfarm]

By the way,Pie For Breakfast, or I should say Pies.
I dragged it out.Mine must be a Peter Wright, or  Sears and Roebuck.  ;D  It has a lamented top and I was able to pick it up pretty easy. Better down play the weight some.  : I would be more apt to say 50 pounds and not much more than that.
I laid my hat by it for size.


 

[Okrafarmer]

I dragged it out.Mine must be a Peter Wright, or  Sears and Roebuck.  ;D  It has a lamented top and I was able to pick it up pretty easy.

:D :D :D :D
Laminated?

Lamented is a word, just means something different!  ;)

[Al_Smith]

Well whatever it is it has that typical long horn style and noone beat the tip flat on the horn  .

[Okrafarmer]

I think there is a slight difference between a standard blacksmith's anvil and a farrier's anvil. Farrier's anvils have a bigger and/or longer round tapered cone, since they spend so much of their time shaping horse shoes. So I was told. My dad's anvil is/was a horse shoeing one. Not sure if he still has it.

[thecfarm]

Now is that mousehole a wrought anvil or lamenated top steel like a Peter Wright ?

Okrafarmer,pick on AL.I'm just repeating what he said.   ;D I just can't spell.

[Shotgun]

Now is that mousehole a wrought anvil or lamenated top steel like a Peter Wright ?

Okrafarmer,pick on AL.I'm just repeating what he said.   ;D I just can't spell.

Make that, "Okrafarmer , pick on AL . I'm just repeating what he said .   ;D I just can't spell ."     ;)

[Okrafarmer]

Sorry, just trying to find a way to kid around without having to mention the G-word.  ;D  :D

[mrcaptainbob]

I 'think' I know what the square hole is for....supposedly there are various shaped 'tools' that fit in there with square shoulders. Sharp edged ones for cutting is one that I've heard about, but what is the round hole for? And....why is there a square stepped section between the horn and top plate?

[Okrafarmer]

I'm not sure, but I've always thought that some of these anvils look like some kind of battleship aircraft carrier or something.

I do know that every shape, angle, bend, hole, edge, or curve you find on an anvil has a distinct purpose, for hammering something specific.

[Don_Papenburg]

The round hole is the pritchel hole . It is used to punch holes with a pritchel punch.

[Okrafarmer]

The round hole is the pritchel hole . It is used to punch holes with a pritchel punch.

I wonder why they only give you one. Seems like you would want round holes of several different sizes.

[beenthere]

You can drill more if you want.

[Okrafarmer]

When those earlier anvils were made, I don't suppose many blacksmiths would have had access to drill bits that would cut steel, cast iron, or wrought iron. Although I could be wrong. Not sure those became common before about 1900?

[Magicman]

This shows the definitions if the various parts of an anvil:  Anvils

And here is something that I found which helped me identify and date my anvil.  Mine has the 1820 - 1835 marking.  LINK

Mine is stamped like the 2nd picture with the exception of the weight markings.  Mine weight is:  0 . 3 . 25

[Okrafarmer]

 Nice links, MM!    :P

[Al_Smith]

There was a zillion types of forming tools you could use in both the prichel and the hardy hole depending on what you were trying to do .I know some of them not all of them .

[Magicman]

Magicman,we need a picture!!! 

OK, here are a couple of pictures of mine.  There are so many questions that I wish I could ask my Granddad.


 
I did not even realize that it was marked until I got the wire brush.


 
A closeup showing the markings. 

[Radar67]

Magic, it looks like your top and edges are still in good shape to be that old. Those are hard to find.

As I understand, the step was used for getting a good, sharp shoulder on the metal when you needed it. The step edges tended to stay in better shape than the main surface.

[Al_Smith]

In this conversation discussing anviloligy on the long side it really doesn't make a diff what kind or who made it as long as it's functional .

Now maybe if this were 1883 and you were hand forging shoes for a race horse or 2010 pounding out parts for the space shuttle it would .I doubt  seriously though if that would apply to very many especially the shuttle part .

[Rooster]

So, all this talk about anvils has lighted a fire under me to get my homemade forge built.  It's been talked about amongst the guys in the family,... how we would all like to dabble in some forge work...aka "pounding hot iron".  I know that my son and I will definitely use it for projects and some artwork. 
The first thing I did was ask my Dad if he would like to share the anvil that he got from one of his neighbors.  I believe it is a 139# Peter Wright.  I tried cleaning it up a bit, and this is what we ended up with.

Rooster



  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 

[Okrafarmer]

Any of you trying to decipher the writing on the anvils, you might try doing a crayon or pencil rubbing, with a piece of paper.

[Magicman]

Wow Rooster, yours looks new.

I'm glad that Radar stirred the anvil pot because I had no idea that anvils had a history.....and a future.   

[Radar67]

Looks like I may have to get you over one day to work on a forge Lynn. I just need to get my tractor barn finished to have a dry place to put it.

[Al_Smith]

Forge ! My dad made one from the front brake drum of an old farm truck stuck in the middle of an  old BBQ grill surrounded by dry sand .Worked like a charm .

The old boy would build a coal fire and banked the coals to burn off to coke which took a couple hours .Open it up and used an old Kirby vaccuum for the air and could heat steel like you wouldn't believe .Had a grand total of nothing in it .

That old forge is where I learned how to forge weld as a teenager maybe 50 years ago more or less .

[Magicman]

I also melted some of my Granddad's tools in his forge.  He was not happy.   :-\

[Al_Smith]

Yeah you have to watch where you put it in the fire for sure .Leave it in the air blast  too long it'will go from cherry to white pretty quickly,actually amazingly fast .

I forgot what the actual fire temp is ,over 3000 though which is not as hot as actelene but you've got more fire surface so it heats up a lot faster .

To weld you have to push it to white which is around 2000-2100 and most steel melts right above that say 2200 . Heat er-up toss some white sand on it and  hammer like a wild man .The hammer blows drives around another 400 degrees to it .If it's blowing sparks with the hammer it's welding .Don't dilly dally around either because the steel will only hold the heat  so long .If it's cooling stick it back in the fire .

[Ironwood]

Great thread guys, good job on finding history of your prized possessions. Nice cleanup job Rooster. I too have a thing for smithing.

For those who do not know I have the largest supply of true wrought iron in North America, we supply Colonial Williamsburg and Mount Vernon and many, many highend smith around the country. The only other volume supplier is in Yorkshire England "repuddling" old iron they find.

Currently good anvils are over $2 a pound and pushing $3 for really clean, rare ones. I recently picked up a 550 pound Peter Wright, I had been staring at it for years at my local metal suppliers shop where it was used as a paint skid....finally proposed a VERY generous barter for some furniture.....didnt know it was a PW until I brought it home to clean off the paint.  PW where THE cat's meow and standard for most all folks, farmer to farrier. and industry. 

Many old ones ARE wrought bodies. If you want a "quiet" anvil look for a Fisher, they are the ones with the eagle on the side of the body. They are cast, and much, much quieter. The guy in NJ is Josh, he bought all the rights to the Fisher line and has/will be opening a museum with a TON of cool historic stuff. I have found some good stuff for him to fill the "gaps" in his Fisher collection. He (I believe) has a 1500 lb Fisher. 

There are LOTS of good groups around the country that help continue the fine smithing traditions, some with ties to ABANA (Artists BLacksmith of North America) and/or other organizations affiliations. We are very fortunate to have PAABA (Piitsburgh Area Artists Blacksmiths) and they support a very active local tractor club (about 20 minutes away from me) that has a 3200 sq ft dirt floored shop that hosts "open forging" Thursday nights for members throughout the warmer months, last time I was there, there were 5 women, five men, and about 6 kids working hot iron off four/five coal forges and manual blowers (some of the old timers sit and run the blowers ALL night). Total people there was 25-30. Very nice. I try to support them as best I can from all my "stuff" here : I have NEVER seen a more open and welcoming group of guys as the Smithing community throughout New England and the Mid-West I would assume it is true throughout the country as it seems it is the "norm". Many many guys are fanatics about this stuff and have dozens and dozens of smithing artifacts "stacked" up in corners of their shops/spaces.




Ironwood


Ps, this is a local guys partial collection that fills an entire 3 story house. Many of the stake anvils are Mouse Hole as I recall. He has  "parts" of anvils from Roman times, and other that are nearly centuries old, including those for armor. He has travelled around the world collecting. All of the collectables were well marked with country of origin and dates, very well researched. IT was truely amazing.......He hosted a PAABA meeting/luncheon last year.


  

  

 

[Okrafarmer]

That's awesome, Ironwood. 

[Bill Gaiche]

Great stories. When I was at the Wilson County Fair in Lebanon Tenn. they had a building where they done forging. Had several stations where people worked at doing metal works. bg

[park ranger]

I have a Peter Wright that had rounded over edges so I ground them down clean and built them up with hard surfacing rod (for dozer blades). Then reground the edges. The edge has been there for around 15 years and withstood both my kids and me.  Remember there is a small length of the top that should be rounded over with like a 1/2" radius. 

[Al_Smith]

I noticed Ironwoods avatar lists Pittsburg Pa .If there was ever a steel city that's it .

My father grew up in the Penn Hills /Universal area as a teenager .I remember driving passed the huge mills and the glow of the big furnaces as a teenager while visiting for a family reunion .Sadly with the way the US steel industry has circled the drain I'd well imagine they are all gone now .

To build a huge steel mill you need three things ,fuel ,ore and transportation .Pittsburgh had all three . Cleveland had one ,Lake Erie .

Then you have the Ohio river with a steel town about every 50 miles at one time ,gone .When they let the steel industry in this country slip abroad is when we got in the shape we are in right now .On that I think it's best for me to just end because the more I think about it the madder I get .

[Okrafarmer]

I know what you mean, Al.  >:(

[Ironwood]

We do have a few specialty mills around. I have been present for a few liquidations of old mills (several in the Allegheny Valley) I have hauled ALOT of pattern shops home in my day......

I have some cool artifacts here from various mills, some shop made tools, etc..... American Bridge (AmBridge Pa, Youngstown Sheet Tube, some coke plant stuff from Struthers, Ohio Carbon Limstone (my grandfather was a night watchman), Edgewater Steel Oakmont Pa., US Stel Clairton, and probably many others......Signs tools, tongs, etc.....

My Father was an open hearth area crane operator, Youngstown Sheet Tube, the Center Street Bridge in Struthers Ohio went right over the rolling mill area my Dad worked, cool stuff watching that red hot iron flying out of the rollers onto the deck, one of my earliest memories (the SMELL! Sulfur like). We would sometimes go pick him up on the other side of that bridge when the whistle blew several thousand men came rolling out that gate. What a sight......

I have a replica of a French-Indian War anvil here. I friend who was a historian/buff, found part of one buried locally on a farm where some of the fighting occured (really all thru "Westylvania") He had a master made a cast 6 of them from high quality alloy. I got the last one he had, he died suddenly not long after retiring from his history position at our local highschool. Man was he INTO smithing. I will get a pic of it tomorrow.


Here are some more pics of my other friend's collection of anvils.... He drags the   from all over the world....


  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 

[Al_Smith]

I've only worked in one mill but twice .Every summer Empire -Detroit aka Reeves in Mansfield Ohio had a maintainace shut down .Two weeks of 7-12's .Make a bunch of money in a short period of time .

The vastness of a steel mill is hard to imagine unless you've been behind the gates . This was in the days they still ran the 200 ton open hearths . In July the heat was almost unbearable and those open hearths had been shut down a week ten days before we ever got there .Aside from that it was interesting .

[Ironwood]

I have been in a few mills.....HUGE buildings. Amazing size.....

I had a classmate of mine's father fall off a catwalk (it broken as he walkd on it) into a caldron/ladle of iron, vaporized him :'( Poor family, good folks too. Still makes me tear up. What a shame, raised three outstanding boys thou.....Nearly all my classmates either had ties to the mills or farms, good place to grow up.


Ironwood