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How do I buy raw land?

Started by Leigh Family Farm, November 18, 2012, 09:28:54 AM

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Leigh Family Farm

I am interested in buying some land in northeastern PA to build a vacation cabin on. I have never bought raw land before SO....

How do I buy raw land properly? What should I look for? Resources available for information, both in books and/or people? Questions to ask the seller/listing agent? What experiences have you had with buying land? What unexpected costs came up that could have been avoided by asking the right questions?

Thanks for all the help!

I searched the forum for some answers and got the following: have a proper survey completed and get a good perc test done.
There are no problems; only solutions we haven't found yet.

Holmes

Realtors thru the internet is the easiest way to search. Try land or farms. Larger parcels seem to sell slow unless a developer wants it and they do not usually want to buy to far away from developed areas.  rivers and valleys are nice, maybe make your own pond. We looked for almost a year then a seller cut their price a lot and we picked up 75 acres for 40 grand.
Think like a farmer.

RynSmith

I'm not sure if this is in the area of the current natural gas boom, but I'd think it would be wise to ask about the mineral rights of any parcel you become interested in.

Leigh Family Farm

RynSmith, this area is on the edge of the Marcellus Shale which is where all the natural gas in PA is coming from. I will definitely ask about the mineral rights and make sure they are mine when I buy. Any other rights I should know about?

Holmes, good to know that land sells slowly that way I won't be pressured to buy quickly out of fear someone is gonna scoop it up, like in a housing market. Any particular realtor brokerage I should use/avoid?
There are no problems; only solutions we haven't found yet.

Holmes

Realtors and brokers are just like foresters. Most of them are good.  If you consult and deal with, a,your, realtor they work for you. If you call the realtors that are selling the land they work for the land owner.
Think like a farmer.

grweldon

Quote from: Holmes on November 18, 2012, 10:25:30 AM
... We looked for almost a year then a seller cut their price a lot and we picked up 75 acres for 40 grand.

If that land is usable for anything at all or very scenic, That's my kind of deal!  I would jump all over that price around here.  I paid almost 3 times that for my 60 acres of hills with trees on them!
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

doctorb

I would always be interested in, and would fully understand, the zoning of any raw land.  Find out how many dwellings are possible and find out if the land is can be subdivided.  The more the mineral interest, the more a property can be cut up and resold as smaller units, the higher the price.  Check any easements that are attached to the property (Can they run a gas line through it, etc.).  Find out if there are any type of building restrictions.  Is electricity already available to the parcel or will you have to bring it in?

Have a good idea what you want to do with the land.  Cabin in the woods, farming, hunting camp, timber production, wildlife protection, etc.

Finally, although you may well be a good distance from your nearest neighbors, try to find out what they are like.  Avoid religous cults, prisons, and Forestry Forum members if you can. ;)
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Leigh Family Farm

Quote from: doctorb on November 21, 2012, 12:44:26 PM


Finally, although you may well be a good distance from your nearest neighbors, try to find out what they are like.  Avoid religous cults, prisons, and Forestry Forum members if you can. ;)

Does Forestry Forum members rank higher or lower priority than Prisons on places to avoid? Haha!!

Thanks for the tips.
There are no problems; only solutions we haven't found yet.

Holmes

Doctorb, Very good points... I did not want highways ,airports and rod and gun clubs nearby for noise reasons. We also did not want any easements on the land. We ended up with hills ,valleys, streams, ledge , rocks, trees , swamps , wetlands, deer, moose, turkeys, but no FF members nearby. :)
Think like a farmer.

Sprucegum

When I decided to buy I kept an eye on real estate listing (MLS) on the internet and had 6 criteria the parcel had to meet. 1-160 acres, 2-mature wood, 3-close to river or lake, 4- accessable by 4 wheel drive, 5- no more than three hour drive from my home, 6- cheap!

Looked for a year before we got lucky. The search was fun; if we found a likely spot we would take our little holiday trailer and spend a weekend camped there to try it on.

Edit: its 2 1/2 hours from town and over 3 hours from any FF members  :(

Leigh Family Farm

We want the land to make a vacation cabin that we could use year round. I don't hunt but I like to fish and hike, so a heavily wooded lot near water would be ideal. Also, I would like to "groom the forest", you know, care for the woods properly so that they flourish and one day my grandkids would have this great woods to explore. The lumber from the trees would cut down on building costs too. We are making our criteria list right now. So far its:

1) Near a ski lodge (only way the wife would use it during the winter)
2) 10+ acres so neighbors aren't too close
3) Near water, either a lake or swimmable river
4) no more than 3 hours drive from our home
5) has public road access to the frontage
6) heavily wooded

I do plan on checking who or what is around the property to avoid noisy neighbors. I am reading up on subsurface rights, because of the natural gas in the area. I wouldn't want to subdivide the property later on. We would also like to be about 30 minutes from a nearby town. We aren't going uber remote, just a little away from it all. 
There are no problems; only solutions we haven't found yet.

SwampDonkey

I've found that on realtor sites the land is either all clear cut or it has a set of buildings like a house or lodge that drives the price up. A lot of land I have seen over the years on those sites is cedar swamp that was cut off. And subdivided off good farm land, sometimes land locked across someone's farm. Lately though it has improved some since they have taken on foresters in some outfits so you can deal with someone that knows what timber looks like versus whips and poles.

I inquired one time back in the 90's. I had access to property lines and photos. I got several faxes and checked every one from photos. All were wasteland and swamps around farm edges. Saved a lot of running and wasted time.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Mountain

I am in Idaho, I would imagine things could be quite different over there..  Buying raw land is no different from buying land with a home on it really. 

Some things to check into before buying any raw land though, find out what it is zoned as and what exactly that means to you as the owner, also if you want to build a home you have to find out if you are allowed to build a home on that land.  Always do a title and lean search even on raw land, and I would suggest to always have a survey done. 

I would also check with the local offices and find who is in charge of noxious weed enforcement and have them make an inspection of the land before buying, if it has a weed problem you want to know before you buy and would also effect the selling price of land when that is considered.  These are just things I have learned from my experience in buying land thus far.

The wife and I bought 200 acres of raw farmland ten years ago and it turned out all the cropland was full of goat weed, which is a listed noxious weed, it was an expensive and troubling headache for all those years.  I also had nieghbors putting fences over our place the instant we bought it hoping that we would not take them to court about it, two of them actually logged 12 acres of old growth timber after moving the fence 200 feet into our forest.  In the end it was greedy neighbors that caused us to sell out, but that also worked to our advantage, another neighbor did a mining claim on the BLM land behind us, where the other neighbors had logged not realising they had moved the fence so most of the claim lay on our place.  When he realised that he offered us 2k an acre and we sold out laughing all the way to the bank.

We now have a small 40 acre farm with a very nice 3k square foot house, five ponds full of bass and catfish, 12 acres of timber and great neighbors that are the salt of the earth.  I would suggest that whatever you buy you check into it very thoroughly to avoid getting into headaches.

Rocky_Ranger

Quote from: kilgrosh on November 22, 2012, 10:04:38 AM
So far its:

1) Near a ski lodge (only way the wife would use it during the winter)
2) 10+ acres so neighbors aren't too close
3) Near water, either a lake or swimmable river
4) no more than 3 hours drive from our home
5) has public road access to the frontage
6) heavily wooded


You find two of these, let me know :D
RETIRED!

SwampDonkey

$2000/acre for farmland isn't exceptional. It's pretty much bare minimum if it's decent ground. And goes up from there. From what some of the farmers on here say, it goes way up from there in some areas. Our good farmland is under FLIP, so if it's subdivided and taken out of production there are tax consequences that go back about 15 years.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ljohnsaw

After looking around, I found 10 acres, heavily wooded but a little steep in parts.  They originally wanted $119k but the price dropped a bit and I got it for $80k.  Yep, $8k/acre - land is expensive out west.  I knew I was in for a bit of expense for electric - which I will find out about next year - my guess is about $3k so I might think hard about off-grid.  Also, putting in a well will be around $3-4k and septic for another $3-4k.  My cabin could easily be off-grid - propane stove and refrigerator, water pump and LED lights.  What else do you need?  My "neighbor" is a freeway down off the end of the property so there is the rush of traffic noise down there but not too noticeable on top.

I've tried to contact my other neighbor but no response.  Their 10 acre parcel of land is vacant as well.  Trying to swing a deal for sharing bringing in the electric.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

5quarter

Holmes...be wary. The features you describe are the ideal habitat for FF members. Keep an eye out for an inconspicuous RoW, the smell of woodsmoke and diesel or the occasional newly sawn stump.  ;) depending on your location, you might try flushing out an FF member by cooking up some grits over a wood fire and leave them for a spell. If that don't lure them out, perhaps some of MM "tasty" looking chicken. ;D
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

Holmes

Thanks for the warning 5quarter. Up here we use grits  to soak  up the swamps. Chicken crispin would be good though. ;D
Think like a farmer.

Jasperfield

If you have, or can make, good neighbors they'll be valuable to you. They can watch over your place when you're not there, and can offer help when you really need it.

Larry

Officially the seller pays the real estate broker fees...unofficially the buyer pays it all.  I've bought from real estate agents, banks, and property owners.  I've always got the best buy from banks or straight from the property owner.  IMO you will never get a great deal through a real estate company.

It was a bit scary the first time, but closing a deal is not all that hard.  The couple of times I bought from a bank they handled everything at very little charge/no charge.  There's always somebody in the bank who knows all the rules.  When buying from a property owner I've gotten a lawyer.  Split those reasonable fees with the seller at closing.

Too find a property religiously check the real estate adds in the paper as soon as it comes out.  Most of the time you can do that online, and use a search to only list the properties that may interest you.

We are living on property that has all your requirements except for that snow thing...that's a four letter word. :D
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Okrafarmer

I lived for three months in northeast Pennsylvania. Beautiful area.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Holmes

 Around here you can go to a town hall and ask to see accessors maps. I have seen people do this, find a large parcel of land on the map, find out who owns it, [ that is public information,] then ask the owner if they want to sell their land or part of it.  That is an option when you know the location you want to be in.
Think like a farmer.

Leigh Family Farm

Quote from: Mountain on November 22, 2012, 12:32:11 PM
I would also check with the local offices and find who is in charge of noxious weed enforcement and have them make an inspection of the land before buying, if it has a weed problem you want to know before you buy and would also effect the selling price of land when that is considered.  These are just things I have learned from my experience in buying land thus far.

Noxious weed? I guess I have some more learning to do. Never heard of this before. Anyone come into this stuff in PA?

Quote from: Rocky_Ranger on November 22, 2012, 01:20:37 PM
You find two of these, let me know :D

I found one with all but the closeness to a town and a ski area. After I showed the online listing to the wife, she said 35 minutes drive to ski was too far for her to enjoy it. Not kidding. Ohh how I love the French  ;)

Quote from: ljohnsaw on November 22, 2012, 01:43:32 PM
After looking around, I found 10 acres, heavily wooded but a little steep in parts.  They originally wanted $119k but the price dropped a bit and I got it for $80k.  Yep, $8k/acre - land is expensive out west.  I knew I was in for a bit of expense for electric - which I will find out about next year - my guess is about $3k so I might think hard about off-grid.  Also, putting in a well will be around $3-4k and septic for another $3-4k.

Ljohnsaw, where in nor cal are you? I lived in Alameda (Bay Area) for 7 years. Are the septic/utility prices actual quotes or just guestimates?

Larry, I will check with the local bank to see about direct dealings.
Holmes, thanks for the idea. I will reach out to a couple of the county's assessors office and see whats available.
There are no problems; only solutions we haven't found yet.

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: kilgrosh on November 23, 2012, 01:34:36 PM

Quote from: ljohnsaw on November 22, 2012, 01:43:32 PM
After looking around, I found 10 acres, heavily wooded but a little steep in parts.  They originally wanted $119k but the price dropped a bit and I got it for $80k.  Yep, $8k/acre - land is expensive out west.  I knew I was in for a bit of expense for electric - which I will find out about next year - my guess is about $3k so I might think hard about off-grid.  Also, putting in a well will be around $3-4k and septic for another $3-4k.

Ljohnsaw, where in nor cal are you? I lived in Alameda (Bay Area) for 7 years. Are the septic/utility prices actual quotes or just guestimates?

Larry, I will check with the local bank to see about direct dealings.
Holmes, thanks for the idea. I will reach out to a couple of the county's assessors office and see whats available.
I'm planning on building up off of 80 at Yuba Gap.  For a "standard" septic, they were quoting about $2,500.  I've got lots of boulders so the leach lines will likely meander -
meaning I will have to have extra backhoe work.  Hopefully I will not need an "engineered" system - read that as extra $$.
For the well, the wells in the area that my driller has first-hand knowledge, the depth is 600' for production.  I will likely go 100' or so for minimal water and install a storage tank.  That I can do for a couple thousand.  Going 600' is around $12k.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Leigh Family Farm

I know exactly where Yuba Gap is. Lovely country up there...though not so lovely when CHP closes I-80 past Truckee. Hopefully I won't have to drill that far for a well!
There are no problems; only solutions we haven't found yet.

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