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Check your Blade Alignment

Started by Magicman, November 09, 2012, 02:14:59 PM

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Magicman

A guy stopped by while I was sawing yesterday.  His first question was "how much do you charge?"  His next statement was that he had just had his logs sawed for $50 per Mbf cheaper.  His next statement was the all of the lumber was wavy and that he doubted that he would be able to use it.  I just commented that it sounded like the other "sawyer" knew what his sawing was worth.  I asked if the logs were knotty, but he said that they were clear.

He then walked over to two stacks of stickered 2X4's and 2X6's and began inspecting them.  He then tried to buy them until I told him that they belonged to a customer that was building a home.  He kept going back and rubbing across those stacks of framing lumber.

Several things cause wavy lumber.  Knots, dull blades, pushing too hard, and blade alignment come to mind and knots are beyond our control, plus knotty lumber makes unsuitable framing lumber anyway.  Sharp and properly set blades are easy which leaves blade alignment.

Checking and adjusting the blade's horizontal alignment with the sawmill bed is simple yet so important.  I doubt that it takes more than 15 minutes to verify and tweak this adjustment.


 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Chuck White

Good point Lynn, I check mine 5-6 times through the Spring-Fall sawing season.
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

John Bartley

I agree that checking blade alignment is an easy check to do regularly. As far as waves, my limited experience is that a lack of set , especially in knotty wood is the leading cause of wavy boards. That other sawyer probably did charge what he was worth ....

John
Kioti DK35HSE w/loader & forks
Champion 25hp band mill, 20' bed
Stihl MS361
Stihl 026

Delawhere Jack

The WM LT40's have some seriously heavy duty adjusting screws, I think you'd need to smack them with a 10lb sledge repeatedly to knock them out of alignment. That other fella must be running a one of the lesser brand mills.  :D

drobertson

checking bladed alignment is good, but if the saw is running, and the boards are square and true why bother. If the bands are not running hot and all is well, I say keep on cutting. Now if there are some issues with quality or accuracy then that is the first place to go, if not drive belt tension being the first, especially if the problem just pops up without any crashing event.  And MM the 15 min rule stands true for those who do this allot, or have done it several times,  any blade alignment made brings in to play allot of guide settings as well.  A 15 min, adjustment is a pretty quick one, not saying you can't do it that fast, but, boy howdy, I guess if a Man has cut a million board feet of lumber, best not to question,    all this saying , blade alignment is critical for a true cutting mill. 
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Magicman

The "other" sawmill was an LT40.  Blade alignment is also affected by roller guide wear.  It is just a good feeling to lay that blade guide gauge on the band and verify the the blade is running as it should be.

After that conversation with the unhappy man, I gave mine a check as the picture indicates.  My idle (right) side was 1/16" high.  It is not now. 

I will be sawing Hurricane Isaac downed Red Oak Monday.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Dodgy Loner

Dad and I were sawing some post oak last Saturday and we ran into some issues with wavy cuts. There were several issues and we were able to resolve them all. First, two of the logs were knotty. Even with a sharp band they gave us trouble, but easing off the speed helped a lot. The butt log gave us the most problems, even though it was clear. The first issue we found was excessive sawdust buildup on the band and wheels. We took off the wheel covers and cleaned them up, then put on a new band. Dad had been running straight water as lubricant, so we added some Wood-Mizer lube additive and it cut right through the buildup and kept the blades clean. We still had to take it slow on the wide cuts, but an 18" cut on post oak is no easy task.

I'm not sure if Dad has checked the blade alignment, but that would be the only other factor I can think of. Maybe he will be along to comment. We ended up with some nice lumber nonetheless once we got all of those issues resolved, and I got to run his new LT40 for the first time :)
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Bibbyman

We saw some post oak now and then.  Usually no problem.   Sometimes we fight stress.   But one post oak I remember kicked my butt!   It was a butt cut log about 10" on little end. I changed blades and tried every thing I knew but still the blade would wonder around.   The log before it and one after sawed fine.

We were sawing red oak today.  The logs were fresh.  Everything was sawing fine.   Got to one kind of rough log about 16" diameter and it gave me problems.  Actually made a couple of bad boards. Something strange about that log.   It even choked down the edger.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Red Clay Hound

 
Quote from: Dodgy Loner on November 09, 2012, 08:26:43 PM
I'm not sure if Dad has checked the blade alignment, but that would be the only other factor I can think of. Maybe he will be along to comment. We ended up with some nice lumber nonetheless once we got all of those issues resolved, and I got to run his new LT40 for the first time :)
I did check the blade alignment right after I got the mill and it was good.  I think the problem was the gummy buildup on the blades and belts.  After we added the lube additive things went much smoother.  I have sawed a fair amount of white oak, but not much post oak.  I was surprised at the amount of gummy residue we got from that log - never had that problem with white oak.  One thing I noticed when I bucked the log was that there was some dark liquid that oozed out the end of the log.  I guess that's the stuff that was gumming up the blade.  Has anyone else experienced this issue with post oak? ???  I checked the lumber and I don't see any evidence of the residue.

Another difference we noticed was that there was a very distinct transition between the heart wood and sap wood.  The heart wood was much darker than most of the white oak I have sawed.  We quarter-sawed the butt log and it has some awesome ray-fleck! 8)

Here is a picture of the butt log on the mill.


 
2007 Wood-Mizer LT40 Super Hydraulic with 51 hp. Cat; 2007 Wood-Mizer EG200 Twin Blade Edger; Woodmaster 718 Molder/Planer; Stihl MS460 and MS362 Chainsaws; 2011 John Deere 5065 with JD 553 Loader

Kansas

I hate to say this, but we rarely align a mill, unless it has to do with the bed or side rails. I have seen rollers flopping around some. The rollers probably have more to do with things than anything, along with wear on belts, hook angle for what you are cutting, and set. We do on rare occasion  check alignment. It just has been our experience is that it isn't that critical. I know that goes against conventional wisdom. That is concerning the blade. You put enough big logs on a mill and eventually that will knock off the deck and/or back stops. It just seems like if you have the right blade, with the right set and hook angle for what you are cutting, it will cut straight. Arky about had a conniption fit when he saw our ceramic bottom pieces on the rollers were gone. It just doesn't seem to be an issue. A blade will cut straight, or it won't.

Bibbyman

Ancient history,

We'd had our first mill about 6 months and I'd sawed mostly for myself and a couple of relatives.   I got a call one afternoon from a guy that started with two questions, "Did I have one of those little band mills?" and "Can you saw straight lumber."    I answered I did have a band mill and thought I was doing a pretty good job of sawing.  He then asked what I charged.  I told him 20.  There was a pause on the other end.  I asked if that was a problem and he said another guy was sawing his logs and was charging 15.  I politely let him know I wouldn't do it for less.

He went on to tell that he'd taken several trailer loads of logs to a guy that had been in the business for many years.  He went to pick up the first few hundred board feet and it was awful. Thick and thin, cupped, etc.

We made an appointment for him to come over and visit the next afternoon.  I went out and started sawing some cedar 6x6s we had an order for – making 1" lumber off the outsides.  A pickup truck pulls up.  I'd shut off the mill and walked out of the shed to great him – not knowing it was the guy I was just on the phone with. He couldn't wait.    He introduces himself and then urged me to "Look at this."  He had three boards in the back of the pickup.  They were some of the worst looking boards I'd ever seen.  They ran from 5/8 to 1-1/4" thick and 5" to 7" wide and cupped.  That is the same board – not from board to board.

We visited a minute and I invited him to come in and see the lumber I was making.  He said he didn't have to,  he could see enough from where he was.  And he would be bringing his logs to me to saw.  He never even brought up price.

He told others and I got quite a bit of sawing from his circle of friends that made furniture as a hobby.

I asked for one of his boards and he gave it to me.  I leaned it in the corner of the shed and it only got worse with age.  My plan was to use it when others complained about our fee – I'd show them that board and tell them this guy saws for 15.  I never had to resort to it and finally Mary pitched it.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Magicman

Kansas, In a way, I agree with your statement.  My thinking is that if the blade is removing a sufficient amount of kerf so that the back of the blade is not contacting the log enough to deflect the band that all should be OK.

That being said, I am still more comfortable when I verify that the blade is 100% horizontal with the bed.  Then when the blade exits a log or cant and I see a deflection, it indicates a compromised blade, not blade alignment  Kinda like a "warm fuzzy feeling".   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Dave Shepard

When the band exits the log without any noise or head movement, I know everything is working right. I bumped one of my rollers last year with a long log and it caused a lot of trouble before I got it figured out. Mostly crowned cuts, but also dipping at knots.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

drobertson

Well, I am pretty sure I have seen about everything everyone else has in band milling with our smaller mills.
Post oak will, at times make you scratch your head.  Butt cut Pine will make you scratch your head,  brand new blades will make you scratch your head,  and then when you plan on just getting through a junker log with a used blade that should have been replaced and run like a top, this will make you scratch your head, but never should a mill that is out of alignment or a loose drive belt cutting poorly every make you scratch your head.  This being said, after tomorrow mornings hunt, I  plan on finishing another pine job, and I almost at this point expect some kind of issues just for making any comment at all.  good night brothers, and good luck sawing and hunting! david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

paul case

I cut quite a lot of post oak. I have about 5500 ft on the lot to saw right now.

It wants to gum up the band something aweful. Lots of water or something slicker. Clean it up after every cut with a full flow if ya have to. The wider the cut the worse it gets.

As for the seepage from your log, It is common for them to leak some black watery looking stuff after they were cut down. I got some fresh blown down post oak summer before last and it had more black watery seepage than normal. I think it may be a reaction to stress? I have never noticed that it made any difference to the lumber, it just looks kinda yucky.

Post oak is hard stuff. But here where I am it is almost always hard and good all the way through. If you dont see a defect on the outside, the  inside is probably good as well.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Brucer

Blade alignment can become more critical when you are into "difficult" wood -- such as dry softwoods or very wide cuts.

One thing that often gets overlooked is to check the horizontal alignment of the guide rollers. On a Wood-Mizer, instead of pointing straight down the mill, the axis of the roller should point slightly to the right. The easiest way to check this alignment is to place a straight edge across the front of the roller and compare it to the back of the blade.

The reason this is important is that the back of the blade pushes on the roller flange when you are in the cut. If the blade contacts the flange as the moving blade approaches the roller, the pressure on the flange will try to push the back of the blade down, away from the roller. If the blade contacts the flange as the blade is leaving the roller, the pressure on the flange will try to push the back of the blade up tight against the roller.

I encountered problems with this alignment after I switched to 1-1/2" blades. Normally I check and fine tune the vertical alignment a couple of times a year, or if I hit something (like a knot or a clamp) with the outboard blade guide. Each time I adjust the vertical alignment I slack off one of the horizontal adjustment bolts and then tighten when the alignment is done.

I figure that over the life of the mill --1600 hours at the time -- the horizontal adjustment bolts had gradually drifted out of alignment. Then loosening the bolts to slide the roller back when I went to the wider blades also contributed to the horizontal misalignment. Once I found the problem and corrected it, my long wavy cuts straightened right out.

Bibbyman once suggested putting a long bar or level across to adjacent bed rails to do the vertical adjustment. That lets you measure the vertical distance at both ends of the alignment tool without moving the sawhead back and forth.


Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Bibbyman

I have a habit of checking alignment about 10 times a log.   When I flip a cant,  I run the head height up to the top of the cant and up to the edge.  If it matches,  I know I'm in pretty good shape.  If it's off,   I look for bark under the cant, stress or some reason.

I also watch the boards coming off to see if they are consistent thickness side to side and end to end. You can't win them all but if you start noting several in a row that are off,  time to start looking.  Every once in a while I'll measure a cant to see if it's not tapered or otherwise out of square.  I've found a bed rail that has dropped just a little and caused cants to come out a little thick on that end. 

Watching blade deflection will give a clue that the blade is getting dull or there is a problem with guide alignment.  Or even the main drive belt needs a little tighten up.

I even note the relationship of the saw cut to the groove made by the debarker.

I only go through a major alignment procedure when I replace some main item like a cam bearing or guide rollers.  Or when some major damage has occurred.  Otherwise I just audit the lumber coming off and tweak as required.

Here is a write up I did of what I do...

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,19439.msg279521.html#msg279521



 



  



 

Here is how I check blade level.



 

Before



 

After
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Cedarman

When checking mill alignment don't forget to check guide roller wear.  The front section of the roller will wear more than the back , making a tapered roller.  This will cause problems.  Use a caliper to measure the diameter at the back ring of the roller and the ring at the front of the roller.  They should be the same.

Another thing that can eat your lunch when aligning the mill is to use a square that is not square.  Many years ago my sawyer was aligning the mill and could not get it to cut square no matter what he did.  I took the square and measured the cant.  Euclid had proved beyond doubt that my measurements were impossible.  I checked the square and indeed it was "stretched".
New square and alignment was easy.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Magicman

I got a PM questioning the wording of my reply above:

Quote from: Magicman on November 09, 2012, 08:10:43 PM
After that conversation with the unhappy man, I gave mine a check as the picture indicates.  My idle (right) side was 1/16" high.  It is not now. 

The 1/16" out of adjustment that I referred to was the adjustment of the blade roller guide.  This is determined by the use of the "Blade Guide Alignment Tool" seen in the picture below.


 
In the WM Owner/Operation manual this is referred to as "Blade Guide Vertical Tilt".  My back side was 1/16" higher than the front side, so the blade guide adjustment needed tweaking.

After the blade guides are adjusted perfectly horizontal with the saw bed rails, then the idle (outboard) side of the sawhead should be verified that it is 1/16" higher than the drive side.

I am sure that my adjustments were needed because of the blade guides wearing as Cedarman mentioned above.  Mine are now 2 years old.  I have a set of new ones, but I am postponing replacing them until I get my WM service/tuneup this next Spring when Bob makes his rounds.   ;D
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Magicman

Since this thread was inspired by a discussion about wavy lumber, there is another cause of wavy lumber that is not an alignment, but an adjustment.  That is the drive belt.  A loose or slipping drive belt can/will cause you total misery.  It is also something that happens gradually and may not be noticed.

Maybe I had better go out to my sawmill and turn my adjustment a few rounds.   smiley_idea
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

wwsjr

When I check or adjust blade alignment, I start with Rust Reaper, then anti-seize on all the blade guide roller bolts. Makes it easier next time. I normally check mine at 50 hours, along with bed and backstop aligment, updown chain, feed chain, drive belt, grease all fittings and recalibrate Accuset unless I have a problem before 50 hrs. I use the belt tension tool from WM to check all belts. I have been replacing blade guide rollers (sealed rollers, no grease fitting) each year when Bob does annual service. ATF on chains and rail wiper at about 8 engine hrs. 2600 hrs on my mill now.
Retired US Army, Full Time Sawyer since 2001. 2013 LT40HD Super with 25HP 3 Phase, Command Control with Accuset2. ED26 WM Edger, Ford 3930 w/FEL, Prentice Log Loader. Stihl 311, 170 & Logrite Canthooks. WM Million BF Club Member.

laffs

this nis what i use to level my blade front to back. Its a mighty mag with a dial indicator, set to zero and move the head back and forth. It would be good to have one at each side by each guide
brent\Desktop\2012-05-07 blade leveling\blade leveling 003.JPG

dont know if I did that right ,been a while since I posted a pic.
timber harvester,tinberjack230,34hp kubota,job ace excavator carpenter tools up the yingyang,

sawwood


We are having trouble with our Norwood not cutting square lumber. I know that the blade needs alignment so i am going to buy a blade alignment tool from Cooks saw. I have looked at some of the photos on alignment but they don't
shown enought how its done. Is there a movie showing the alignment prosses or would some one make one. Sure
would help seeing it from start to finish.

Sawwood
Norwood M4 manual mill, Solar Kiln, Woodmaster
18" planer/molder

losttheplot

For the Norwood......... you adjust the eye bolts........ that hold the cables............ that support the head.
The cables that wind around the drum to lift the head up and down.

Put a spacer on the left and right sides of the bunk and use it as a feeler gauge, a short length of 2x4 works well.

Slowly lower the head until the band comes into contact with the spacers, It should touch both at the same time, level left to right.

I have adjusted my LM2000 by leveling the track left to right along its entire length.
Then set the first bunk, level to the band, using the blocks of wood.
I then loosened the bolts holding the remaining bunks to the track .
I used the slack in the bolt holes to adjust the remaining bunks to be level with the band.
I only did this once and I think it depends how well the previous owner set up the mill

One problem with the Norwood is the flip up back stops being out of plum, if one of the tracks is ahead of the other the back stops will be plum in the vertical position but will go out of plum as they are moved down.

I rotate the log 180 degrees after the first cut, then I have a cut face against the back stops and a cut face to put a square against to check it's at 90 degrees to the bunks.
I find tightening the dogs can push the cant out of square even if the back stops are plum.
For large timbers I hold the square against the cant as I tighten the dog to check it stays plum.

Hope this helps.
LTP.

DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK !

sawwood


Hi LTP. This summer we where putting a log on the mill and got to close pushing the rails off the blocks. We then
tried to strighen the frame but i think its still out. We also put new bearings in the guide rollers so we have a lot
to adjust. I am up set that our lumber is thinner on one side and plan on fixing it soon. Just would like to see some
one make the adjustment. I may go down to Joplin as there is a Norwood down close and talk to him. Thanks for
the help.

Sawwood
Norwood M4 manual mill, Solar Kiln, Woodmaster
18" planer/molder

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