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Is unevened aged management possible?

Started by Tarm, November 04, 2012, 09:22:24 PM

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Tarm

I have an evenaged northern hardwood forest. (Basswood, hard maple, white ash, etc.) I would like to convert it over time to an unevenaged forest. I'm told the way to do this is with targeted thinnings and the creation of canopy gaps. The problem is that there is no maple regeneration.  The forest floor is covered with a heavy sedge mat. The regeneration present consist of ash seedlings and ironwood saplings. I assume this is because of the high deer population. Should I just forget the unevenaged management and stay with the evenaged? Plan on a shelterwood harvest with site prep sometime in the far future? Anyone else have the same problem?

KBforester

Well I'm not sure about your forest type in WI, but I know when I worked in high deer population areas of the Adirondack mountains, it didn't matter what silviculture I chose, you just couldn't regenerate anything but beech. I'm surprised you still have ash. Maybe someone else has some theory about providing an abundance of brows- to overwhelm the deer with food so at least some regen will make it (likely with even aged management). But I haven't seen any evidence of that working out well.
Trees are good.

SwampDonkey

To get good hard maple regen you need openings. You can go into some maple stands and the floor is solid maple regen, but they are just stagnate, not enough light. Why you tend to get just beech regen is beech is removed, but here is an establish beech crop and there is still too little light for the maple. Beech is more shade tolerant. To get maple going you need some holes. Beech understory is typical of firewood lots that remove the beech but don't open up much sky. Hard maple is very tolerant of browse, where as oak is doomed in high deer numbers. When you have ironwood, it's just a substitution for beech. Again very shade tolerant and very commonly takes over sugar bush for the same reason beech takes over firewood lots. Your past cutting history on your lot can often be a detriment of the future forest. When you have that beech and ironwood take over it's pretty hard to get your maple going.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

DRB

My brother has a couple hundred acres around Hibbing MN and after having some of it clearcut he planted pines. To keep the deer from ruining the trees be puts a bud cap in them every fall.  Just a folded piece of paper stapled over the terminal bud. It works for pine it should work for hardwood but it is a lot of work. Pine would not do well on your land unless you opened some really big areas up since it is pretty shade intolerant. Once the trees get tall enough the deer can not reach the terminal bud then he can quit capping them in the fall.  He is down to a couple thousand trees now from about 10000 that needed it when he started.  Of course the best thing to do is eat the offending deer or give them some food plots that are much more appealing then buds.  Snowshoe hares can be a big problem as well on very small trees they will eat the bark off as well as the buds.

SwampDonkey

Deer are curious creatures around seedlings.  I've seen fresh planted red pine on fields get plucked from the ground as they pulled on the terminals to snap them off for a meal. I've seen this happen with spruce on a cutover plantation to. You could go right down the rows and the seedlings were pulled clean out and a few inches away in about every spot in the row where the dibble had made the hole.   :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Clark

Uneven aged management is possible and I would say desirable.  That thick layer of Pennsylvania sedge is going to make it more difficult, as you have noted the maple have not taken root in it but there are things you can do.

I would check into earth worms first to see if you have a problem with them.  They can hamper maple regen and a thick layer of Penn sedge with no reproduction is one indicator of having them.

Depending on how close you are, I would stop in the Board of Commissioners of Public Lands office in Lake Tomahawk and talk to them.  They know their stuff about uneven aged management and have lots of experience doing it.  They probably know what to do with the Penn sedge to make things work.  Of course, the more information you can present them with the more they would be able to help.  If you were able to find out your habitat type (which is somewhat involved and beyond most landowner's skill and interest level but something you could do) that would be a huge asset too.

My best guess from a distance is that if you went ahead with the uneven aged management and disturbed that sedge layer you would get ample regen but exactly what that first cut should be is impossible to diagnose over the web.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

SwampDonkey

I don't follow the earthworm theory. Our ground is full of earthworms except farm fields. We have no trouble with regeneration and earthworms. They are actually beneficial. The biggest trouble is thick duff and drying out of seedlings when it gets to be dry weather. Usually maple dominated forest floor is very thin, but the floor is deep with leaves every fall. However, maple, ironwood and birch leaves rot rapidly. Beech and oak do not, thus more likely to be troublesome when dry. Hard maple drop their seed in late October after leaves have fallen. The mice, and I mean colonies of them and chipmunks go hog wild about maple seed. Early in the morning before daylight I've drove forest roads in maple woods and there are a lot of mice gathering seed.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

KBforester

Are these some of those invasive earthworms I've heard about? That eat everything in site (presumably including seeds)?
Trees are good.

Clark

I was just throwing the earthworms into the mix as a possible cause of very little regen.  I'm no expert nor have I been involved with any of the earthworm studies, here's some basic info from the MN DNR:

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialanimals/earthworms/index.html

SD - Do you actually have earthworms in the woods?  I always assumed we did but never made any effort to dig any and the above article says they move about 1/2 mile every 100 years so it could be that yards have them but the forests don't.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Ianab

Well you learn something new every day.

I guess if the forest originally has no earthworms, they would be an invasive species, and would change the ecosystem. The forest would eventually adapt, but it would be changed in some way.

Locally any forest area is packed with earthworms, one species grows to 4ft long, and glows in the dark, but the normal "forest" species are about a foot long.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

ashes

wow!

That is news to me, and like ianab I agree, you learn something new every day.
Earth worms have always been considered a good thing, but it seems like with most things there are always two sides to a story.

Ianab

Probably no natural predators for the worms, so they multiply out of control?

Maybe we could send you some Kiwi birds and giant carnivorous snails to help control the?

Then again - you might get overrun by flesh eating snails instead :D

I remember reading awhile back that farmers in England we having problems with all the worms dying off, and that affects the fertility of farm and pasture land. They traced it back to a parasitic nematode worm that had accidentally been introduced from NZ. The local worms have defenses against it, the UK worms didn't.

Fix was to import a bunch of NZ earthworms to replace the local ones that were being killed off.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Okrafarmer

We have plenty of creatures that eat worms, especially robins.  :)
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

When I was in ag school down here, we had soil class. We went around digging holes in the fields and pastures and analyzing what we found. The prof took us into the woods (mixed hardwood and pine) and we dug some holes there too. He was surprised to find the worms very much alive and well even in the hard red acidic clay of the woods. This woodlot was in relatively close proximity to the pastures.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

SwampDonkey

Earthworms, introduced or not, create the mull humus (H) layer in hardwood forest. We do not see them in sour sandy soils here, just the rich hardwoods and back yard soils where the PH is higher. They are not is potato fields here because of all the chemicals and not a lot of organic matter.

They feed on fallen leaves and organic debris and pass it along with minerals through their bodies. It is estimated that earthworms pass 30 tons/ha of soil material through their bodies annually. The casts are higher in nitrate, available phosporus, potassium, calcium, magnesium, and exchange capacity and lower in acidity than the surrounding soil. Earthworm mix bits of organic materials into the mineral soil and promote good soil structure and aeration through their burrowing action. Earthworms do not live in sandy or soils that dry out a lot. (Pritchett and Fisher, Properties and Management of Forest Soils, 1987)

Under my raspberry plants they are often on top of the ground feed on the dead leaves and the soil on top has casts everywhere. I have more raspberries when in season than any man can pick.   Nope I don't see the problem. :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

BaldBob

I read somewhere that , prior to the settlement of Europeans (and shortly thereafter the introduction of European earthworms), light burns through the Northern hardwood stands were quiet common, as the native earthworms were not very efficient at breaking down leaf litter and thus there was sufficient fuel for frequent light fires in these stands. However, European earthworms, which very quickly became almost ubiquitous, are very efficient at converting leaf litter to humus and the light fuels for frequent ground fires was no longer present, so something  as seemingly insignificant as a change in earthworm species changed an entire environment.


Tarm

Gentlemen I do not believe that earthworms are a problem. The ash and ironwood seem to regenerate fine. The problem is I have one 30 year old canopy gap (an old log landing) and a few inadvertent ones made at the last thinning (14 years ago) that have ZERO! maple regen. Since the ash seedlings are severely browsed I'm confident that deer are the problem. Now my question is will a thinning that creates canopy gaps equal to 12% of the forest floor allow  maple regen to begin and grow, or am I just making more deer feed. Can an incremental approach work or do I need the big bang of an evenaged stand replacement harvest.

Clark

Sorry to get everyone off on the worm tangent, I didn't know it would be such a revelation to so many.

The lack of regen is sort of depressing.  The other thing to consider when trying to make the decision to stick with even or uneven aged management is the quality of the trees growing on the site.  Even aged management tends to produce fewer quality stems and gives you fewer opportunities to promote the better stuff.  Uneven aged management allows you to actively cut the poorest stems, give space to the better stems and control species composition.  If the site has poorer quality stems then you would probably be fine going with even aged.  However, NE WI does have lots of very good quality sites and if this land is one of those better sites you would be smart to continue with uneven aged management.  Knowing the habitat type(s) present would really help out in a situation like this.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Tarm

Clark the habitat type is AH, which is the richest for northern hardwoods in my area. The stand is evenaged now resulting from a 1902 harvest and later land abandonment. The stand has very high quality basswood and hard maple trees hence my desire to use unevenaged management. But with no present maple regen my fear is that cutting new canopy gaps will simply result in nonstocked areas in the forest. So has anyone on this site dealt with this situation and solved this problem?

Ron Scott

~Ron

Tarm

Ron it is 113 sq. ft. per acre. I have marked it for a thinning to 90 sq. ft. as per instructions in the Northern Hardwood Notes for a 50% basswood northern hardwood small sawlog size stand. Now should I go back and mark some more creating canopy gaps or just stay with the evenaged area wide thinning?

Okrafarmer

Wow, is that normal? 113 sq ft per acre doesn't sound like much. But then again I don't have any numbers to compare it to.

Am I right to understand this is the area of the bottom of the trees on the land? The equivalent of 113 trees with each one having a bottom area of 1 sq ft?
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Ron Scott

If your Habitat Type or Ecological Land Type indicates that you have a northern hardwood site, then selectively mark to retain 70-90 sq. ft. basal area with gap openings only where you have "junk trees". Remove all the junk trees in site specific locations as necessary to make the small gap openings. Retaining junk will only perpetuate junk.
~Ron

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

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