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Maple or otherwise?

Started by grweldon, October 14, 2012, 04:48:38 PM

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grweldon

My lady-friend and I were out scoping out and identifying trees yesterday and came across a tree with this leaf:



After using iSnap on her iPad to get suggestions, I decided this was a red maple.  I know the sample is a bit degraded after spending a bit of time in a hot car before bringing it home, but I was hoping it would be good enough for verification.  It has a red petiole and the vein structure seems to be correct, but it doesn't have lower lobes, which surprises me.  Keep in mind this is in a forest with Ponderosa Pine, Longleaf and Shortleaf pine, a few different species of Oak and some Sweetgum.  Certainly not where you would expect to find any ornamental Maple.

Although similar to Sweetgum, it just isn't quite like the samples of Sweetgum that I've gathered, which is was I thought it was when I collected it.  I have no idea if it's just one tree or there are others.  I don't even really know if I could find the tree again.  I would be delighted if it is a Maple of any kind, since I thought my property was absent of them altogether.

What do y'all think?
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

grweldon

Oh... one more thing.. could somebody post a pic of a known red maple leaf?
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

RynSmith

Possibly mountain maple, Acer spicatum?

Here are the native (and a few not so much) Acers w/distribution maps.  Granted, the distributions at the county level can be a tad sketchy because they're based only on verified observations. 

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ACER

edit: guess I should add that you can click on any one of those for pictures.

WDH

Definitely red maple.  The leaaf below is from a nursery variety, and it has the lower lobes.  However, many many wild red maples are only three lobed, just like your leaf.



 


P.S.  You won't be finding any Ponderosa Pine in your neck of the woods.  Loblolly maybe.
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Okrafarmer

Looks like the red maples around here that grow in the woods. The book shows that you are definitely in its wild range. You may also be in the range of chalk maple or Florida maple, but their leaves are a little different.
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Okrafarmer

Oh, and I don't think sweetgum leaves will ever look like that. They usually have distinct fingers.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

WDH

Chalk maple and florida maple are hard maples.  They are not serrated between the lobes like red maple, which is a soft maple.
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grweldon

Quote from: WDH on October 14, 2012, 10:26:37 PM
P.S.  You won't be finding any Ponderosa Pine in your neck of the woods.  Loblolly maybe.



I was reading up a bit on SYP yesterday and I really was starting to wonder if the pines I have thought were Ponderosa were actually Loblolly or Slash. I know you are quite the tree expert so I really even hesitate to question, but why would it be doubtful that I have any Ponderosa?  Also, if I do, could it possibly have been planted?  Even so, since I know you are quite the expert, can you tell me exactly how to tell the difference between Ponderosa, Loblolly and Slash?  I read the descriptions in the USDA pamphlet on SYP but I couldn't really make out much of a difference.  Even when it comes to bark, they showed pictures that all looked alike to me, but with different descriptions.  Didn't make much sense to me, maybe you could shed some light?

As far as the Maple, I came to the conclusion that it definately was a Red Maple yesterday also, after I posted the pic.  I was visiting the Ty Ty Nursery website and there was no question that the pictures of leaves they showed for Red Maple matched mine.

Thank you WDH and everybody else for your replies!
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

grweldon

Oh, and I think I also discovered at least one Paradise Apple tree.  I'll have to try to locate it again and look closer, but I would have never even guessed any fruit trees, even though I doubt they ping-pong size fruit are edible, or taste good if they are...
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

grweldon

Quote from: Okrafarmer on October 14, 2012, 11:24:40 PM
Oh, and I don't think sweetgum leaves will ever look like that. They usually have distinct fingers.

Okra, how about posting a pic of a Sweetgum leaf so I can know for sure!  ;D
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

Dodgy Loner

Quote from: grweldon on October 15, 2012, 11:23:29 AM
I was reading up a bit on SYP yesterday and I really was starting to wonder if the pines I have thought were Ponderosa were actually Loblolly or Slash. I know you are quite the tree expert so I really even hesitate to question, but why would it be doubtful that I have any Ponderosa?  Also, if I do, could it possibly have been planted?  Even so, since I know you are quite the expert, can you tell me exactly how to tell the difference between Ponderosa, Loblolly and Slash?  I read the descriptions in the USDA pamphlet on SYP but I couldn't really make out much of a difference.  Even when it comes to bark, they showed pictures that all looked alike to me, but with different descriptions.  Didn't make much sense to me, maybe you could shed some light?

Take a look at this range map for ponderosa pine and you will see why the trees you're looking at are not likely to be ponderosa. It doesn't grow here, and if someone, for some reason, planted one here, it may survive, but it certainly wouldn't thrive.

Loblolly and slash are similar, but easy enough to tell apart if you can get ahold of the needles and/or cones. The key traits to look for are:

Needles per bundle - loblolly almost always has 3, slash has 2 or three
Are the needles twisted? - loblolly has twisted needles, slash needles are straight and untwisted
Cones - Loblolly cones are dull brown or gray, slash cones are shiny brown (almost like they were shellacked)
Cone prickles - Loblolly has fairly big prickles, slash only has tiny prickles

There are other ways to tell them apart, of course, but I find that these are the most reliable traits for the beginner to use.
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RynSmith

Quote from: WDH on October 14, 2012, 10:26:37 PM
Definitely red maple.  The leaaf below is from a nursery variety, and it has the lower lobes.  However, many many wild red maples are only three lobed, just like your leaf.

Well it's been quite a while since I've lived in the south, but there seems to be no comparison between those two leafs, especially when it comes to serrations.  They just seem vastly different.  This is normal variation?  And I say this with all due respect for your obviously remarkable knowing of all things leaf-wise - no sarcasm involved.   :) 

edit: and just general tree-based knowledge of everything too... :)

WDH

Yes, that is normal variation.  There is a good bit of variation in red maple;  sometimes the red petioles are not red  :).  Sometimes the leaves are 5-lobed, but most wild ones are 3-lobed.  They are always serrated between the lobes, unlike sugar maple where the leaf margins are not toothed between the lobes. 

GR,

Slash has thicker needle density on the twig, and the needles at the tips of the branches when viewed from a distance are more round while with loblolly the needles at the tips of the branches looked squared-off, like a whisk broom.  Loblolly cones will prickle you bad if you squeeze them in your hand, while slash cones will not.
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Okrafarmer

Around here, I mainly have to determine between loblolly, longleaf, and shortleaf. I never mistake a shortleaf for a longleaf, or vv, but I can mistake either for loblolly.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

DanG

The easiest way for me to distinguish the pines is by their form.  Of course, longleaf is easy because of the long needles and huge cones.  Slash pine trees tend to have a very symmetrical shape with slender, straight branches, while loblolly branches are very irregular, often having 90 degree bends in them.  With more than one species growing together, it is hard to tell what needles fell from which tree and they are usually too high to see them well on the tree.
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Okrafarmer

I keep seeing ones I think must be longleaf while I'm driving by. Usually they are in someone's yard, as they are not supposed to be native to the area, by 50-100 miles or so. We have millions of loblollys here, and a fair few shortleaf. The longleaf ones I see, have huge tufts of needles like pom-poms at the ends of the branches. Now the loblolly and shortleaf I have trouble with. There is the difference in needle length, but usually the needles are so high up in the air, I can't measure them, just kind of guess. The bark and form of the loblolly and shortleaf seem a lot alike.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

caveman

GRWeldon, There seem to be some variation of pines from one area to another but   certain characteristics seem to be predictable.  For example
1.  Loblolly-needles in groups (fasicles) of three. 6" -9" long.  Short fasicle. Sharp cones.  Loblollies usually have an abundance of cones in groups of 2 or 3.
2.  Slash- needles in groups of 2 slash 3 per fasicle.  Somewhere between 7" -12" or so long.  When holding a limb with needles, the needles come off of the branch in a way that reminds me of an animal's tail (longleaf needles will be at the end of a very thick twig).
3.  Longleaf- three needles per fasicle (rarely 4).  Fasicles are 3/4"-1" long and wooly.  Needles are long 11"- 18",  big cones, flakey bark (most fire resistant).

Virginia Tech has a dendrology page that will help you key out just about any tree species you come across.
Caveman
Caveman

WDH

Shortleaf pine bark has pitch pockets.  They look like little dimples.  The other pines do not have them.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Okrafarmer

Quote from: WDH on November 11, 2012, 08:38:34 PM
Shortleaf pine bark has pitch pockets.  They look like little dimples.  The other pines do not have them.

Where on the tree will you find these? The ones on balsam fir, for instance, are found on the lower trunk, the bole, if you will, and receding gradually up the trunk toward the top.

I used to get REAL sticky when I was a kid, growing up in the land of the pointed firs. . . .
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

WDH

They are on all the bark.  You should be able to see them at eye level.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Okrafarmer

Hmm-- do they make you sticky? Maybe I've never really encountered any SLP.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

WDH

They do not exude pitch.  They are just little dimple depressions in the bark.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

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