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So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.

Started by neckbeard, October 13, 2012, 10:58:17 AM

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beenthere

Quote from: ga jones on October 16, 2012, 10:00:35 PM
sap wood isnt worth much here either. .25cents bf white pine .28-32 hemlock. There is no market for spruce or fir here. thats mostly yard trees anyway. I only cut sap wood if it needs cut in a hard wood patch. Its one of those things that you dont want to do but comes with some of the stands.Its hard to make money just cutting sap wood.good hardwood brings 40-60 cents a foot average.depending on species.diameter.Thats $800.00-1000.oo to the land owner or more Per load.

ga jones
What are you calling sapwood? Is it a grouping of species?
south central Wisconsin
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Okrafarmer

Quote from: ga jones on October 16, 2012, 10:00:35 PM
sap wood isnt worth much here either. .25cents bf white pine .28-32 hemlock. There is no market for spruce or fir here. thats mostly yard trees anyway. I only cut sap wood if it needs cut in a hard wood patch. Its one of those things that you dont want to do but comes with some of the stands.Its hard to make money just cutting sap wood.good hardwood brings 40-60 cents a foot average.depending on species.diameter.Thats $800.00-1000.oo to the land owner or more Per load.

By sapwood, do you mean softwood, or conifers? This is the first time I've heard them referred to this way, I think.

Secondly, it sounds like your market is way better than ours. I can't sell white pine for more than $200/1000, yellow pine for more than $180/1000, hemlock would be considered pallet regardless of quality, red maple (our primary kind here) is $225, tulip poplar is $250, red and white oak, and ash, are $300, and everything else except maybe cedar and walnut, is considered pallet regardless of condition, and brings $175 / thousand, even cherry. So if we had your prices, we could maybe make a living logging around here. Darn tootin. As it is, I think most loggers here are having to decide between buying food, or buying chewing tobacco.  ;D
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

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SwampDonkey

I think he means white woods. However he is only going on local experience. Hard maple and yellow birch logs and veneer are worth a lot more than what he's been getting. With the marketing boards here helping woodlot owners I've seen TT loads of veneer maple get a landowner $3000 or $4000 a load and more if he's the logger. Now the market is very soft right now and I don't know if you could move veneer hardwoods to be honest and log prices like he is quoting is what we get from low quality red maple logs, basically pulp price for ties. Some one is making money somewhere in the chain because most all our products go to the US. ;)

All the commercial mills sawing around the clock and year round up here saw softwoods. Hardwood mills are run like a regular 40 hr day job and not in winter and a trickle compared to softwood sawing. Our forest is 60 % hardwood.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

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Ron Wenrich

When selling by the truckload or by portions, you put your faith in the logger being honest, and the best judge in how to buck logs.  You also think his marketing skills are very good.  That may be true, but its the risk you take. 

Lump sum sales take that risk off the landowner and put it on the logger.  In a bidding situation, the logger or mill with the best marketing, logging and bucking skills will buy the timber for the highest price.  Paid in advance, and there is no problem with honesty.  Risk is limited. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Okrafarmer

I'm still jealous of those prices. Trying to find a veneer buyer around here is kind of like looking for live dinosaurs.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

thenorthman

That being said, If the deal is to go percentages, then its in the loggers best interest to buck and market to the best of his ability.  The better a load is at the scale house the better he gets paid.  There are pro's and con's to both methods, the one that bothers me is the guy's that say they will buy your wood outright, no forester involved, so the landowner has no clue as to whats really going on.  If the logger is making the purchase price with no other competition, then he can bid as low as he feels he can get away with' and sell for as high as possible.  The chance for crookedness is huge
well that didn't work

craigc

Quote from: thenorthman on October 17, 2012, 09:47:45 AM

, the one that bothers me is the guy's that say they will buy your wood outright, no forester involved, so the landowner has no clue as to whats really going on.  If the logger is making the purchase price with no other competition, then he can bid as low as he feels he can get away with' and sell for as high as possible.  The chance for crookedness is huge
That is a huge gross generalization you are making there.  I prefer to buy my timber with just the landowner and myself being involved.  Getting a chance to walk with the landowner and talk about what he wants done to his property is very important to me.  I mark every tree that will be harvest, break down species and footage.  They then can run numbers themselves off the Illinois DNR website for timber prices.  In fact I encourage it we are always on the high end if not more.  Your statement that we can the see how cheap we can get it is how not to buy timber.  Treat people fair and honest.  I have walked many of woods with State Forester marking timber together we bounce ideas and experiences off each other,  makes us both better.  Most private foresters in my state give me the impression they are in it for the check and that is all.  Just finished a private forester sale, He never showed up once!  I have cut many private forester sales can count the number of jobs they showed up on, on one hand.  So who is giving the landowner more attention. The guy who buys it out right with fair money and is there every day talking with the landowner asking him if he sees anything we need to change or do.  Or someone who has invested a can of paint and is never there watching he harvest?  Don't lump us all together is all I ask.
Rottne SMV, Timbco with Logmax 9000, JD 540B Grapple.

ga jones

by sap wood i mean pine hemlock spruce. soft wood is aspen cucumber . my hardwoods are oaks maple cherry walnut hickory birch poplar bass. The veneer market on red oak is 1300 mbf cherry is a little higher I usualy have 3 or 4 veneers a load.I cut small tracts so Im not moving whole loads of veneer. MIxed loads from veneer to grade 1. average 500 mbf.across the board.My log buyer buys veneer through grade 1.The majority of my loads are prime to grade 1 with a few veneers.
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Jeff

That is some odd local terminology there.  Technically sapwood is the part of living wood where sap flows, as different from the heartwood, where it doesn't.  And Aspen, Aspen is a hardwood. Cucumber, up here it is a vegetable. We don't have it. The pines Hemlock and the Spruces are all softwoods.
Just call me the midget doctor.
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ga jones

If sticky sap oozes out of the logs its sap wood.aspen is useless for anything but pallets and pulp. we cant even sell it to firewood buyers. It has to be seperated for the mills we cant mix it with other woods.20 bucks a ton
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SwampDonkey

A lot of veneer loads up here are full of wood from many woodlot owners. The marketing board staff bucked all the logs for most woodlot owner and loggers if they want it, for a fee. The wood was gathered from the various sites and brought to a central yard. The buyers came and scaled, wrote out a check, then the marketing board paid everyone on their scale. Logs had been marked to separate one owner from another. Owner or logger often on site. When the wood left here, it was mill property. As far as I know those markets dried up since 2005. The buyers were all from the US except maybe one. They went all over the Maritimes and Quebec for hardwood.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ga jones

Local terms as follows. sap wood = anything sticky. poll wood= firewood, pulp. Pulp=any sap wood you cant make saw logs out of.  Pallet= any hardwood you cant make a clean saw log out of. Sawlog clean on 3 faces 12 inch on the small end and up. big fattys=over 2 foot dbh hardwoods. low grade=pallet,pulp. shaken ash=Quaken aspen .spruce,fir scotch pine=christmas trees.REAL BIG FATTYS=30 to 40 inch dbh (the mills wont take em any bigger)That stand is stacked=all big fattys.
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ga jones

The mills here buy saw logs on scribner and veneer on doyle. they number the veneer logs seperatly and resell them.There is a baseball bat plant here that buys ash and they scale doyle.Other than that its scribner. tonage on pallet and pulp.
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

Jeff

Your aspen markets are clearly different than what ours are and terms are certainly not what industry definitions would be.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

240b

Quote from: ga jones on October 17, 2012, 08:36:00 PM
Local terms as follows. sap wood = anything sticky. poll wood= firewood, pulp. Pulp=any sap wood you cant make saw logs out of.  Pallet= any hardwood you cant make a clean saw log out of. Sawlog clean on 3 faces 12 inch on the small end and up. big fattys=over 2 foot dbh hardwoods. low grade=pallet,pulp. shaken ash=Quaken aspen .spruce,fir scotch pine=christmas trees.REAL BIG FATTYS=30 to 40 inch dbh (the mills wont take em any bigger)That stand is stacked=all big fattys.
Is this local slang?  do you market your own logs or contract to a mill?

ga jones

local slang...I market my own timber.There are about 10 Hardwood mills to choose from I use 2. I have other logger friends we compare pricing back and forth to see what the other mills are doing.
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240b

Are you guys selling hardwood logs "straight though"(one price per species over a certain dia) or do the mills have different "grades" of logs. 

1270d

So, how about having a log buyer come directly to the site to scale.  This is common practice in our area.  The landowner can be present to ensure that the logger is on the up &up. At the end the buyer gives a reciept with his tally, then takes care of the trucking.  They will tag veneer and sometimes pay on the spot.

SwampDonkey

Logs and veneer up here is scaled NB Rule or Bangor Rule, which is quite similar to International. If the veneer or logs go to a NB mill it's NB log rule or tonnage and cords because the Scalers Act as far as I know doesn't allow for all those log rules. It just makes confusion, maybe that's the intend. Of course that's just an opinion. :D If they scaled Doyle up here, they would not get any wood because the piece size is smaller. Veneer here can start at 11 inches, but the better price is 14" +. At 14" + Doyle scale doesn't do too bad though.

Logs here have different grades going by clear faces, sweep, diameter. Yellow birch and hard maple always flip flop on price. Sometime hard maple is more then yellow birch is more. I suppose it depends on supply. We also have had a white birch veneer market because our white birch can get big. Just throw out the belief they only live as long as aspen. They'll live way longer. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ga jones

veneer here starts at 14 inch. different price for species and grade.I sell on the landing.
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bill m

NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

chevytaHOE5674

Quote from: 240b on October 17, 2012, 09:09:10 PM
Are you guys selling hardwood logs "straight though"(one price per species over a certain dia) or do the mills have different "grades" of logs.

Around here all sawlog are graded and scaled. There is a price per BDFT for the different species by grade.

ga jones

380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars d31 komatsu 350 tj grapple

Okrafarmer

Here, the only hardwood mill nearby worth mentioning, in terms of regular log buying from the public, pays straight-through prices for all species, except that there can be pallet logs from any species if they have too many big knots, too small diameter, or too much sweep or twist.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

thenorthman

Round here its get a contract with the mill or hope they are buying when your logs get there... mostly scribner scale, one or two use doyle, and still looking for a peeler log buyer
well that didn't work

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