So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.

[neckbeard]

From the way people are talking it sounds like the value of timber isn't high enough at the moment to warrant cutting now anyway. If that's the case I'll just tell him no.

By the way, I admittedly haven't done a lot of this sort of business in my day. Should I be negotiating the shares? If so where should I be trying to work towards?

[stavebuyer]

I am very familiar with McCreary county, most likely know the logger, and probably will end up with at least some of the logs if the tract is logged so I can't give impartial advice but I will add some context to the discussion. Logging conditions can vary from easy on top of the plateau to economically impossible in some of the gorge areas due to cliffs, rock houses, and federal lands. Particularly on small tracts the only feasable access to portions of one tract may be across one or more adjoining parcels. May or may not apply here but changes in ownership of an adjoining parcel or the relationship of the logger with or to the neighbors can be a very big deal. There are probably more miles of abandoned "old county roads" than there are maintained ones and many of them cross the forest service, park service, corps of engineers, or private owners who dispute the road status. The point being I have seen more than one instance where if a neighbor is cutting timber that opens access to an adjoining tract it's certainly something to consider. If some of those factors apply "while the logger is in the area" could very well be as much or more of a benefit to the landowner than the logger.

[g_man]

The point being I have seen more than one instance where if a neighbor is cutting timber that opens access to an adjoining tract it's certainly something to consider. If some of those factors apply "while the logger is in the area" could very well be as much or more of a benefit to the landowner than the logger.

That is a good point. It is not just access to land locked lots either. I have a section of woods I can't get to without crossing my neighbors land because it is down over a vertical ledge. We have a deal. When he cuts his I can go in and do mine.

[Ford_man]

Doing it on a percentage, I would want to know what mills it will be sold to and then check the loggers reputation with that mill.

[Kansas]

I hate to say this, but I would be very careful about going with a deal based on the advice of a mill. There are crooked loggers, and also crooked mills. Not saying your logger or the mill he sells to is. But they can get in cahoots easily.

If you don't have to sell at this time, I wouldn't. Its not that hard to move a skidder. Depending on what your interests are, I would educate yourself about timberstand improvement. If for no other reason, than there are crooked foresters too. Or really bad ones. Got involved with one of those myself. My guess is your state forestry service puts on field days that explains a lot. I don't see the prices getting worse than they are now. Simple things like knowing how to scale a log if you go on shares, which personally I would not recommend. Again, if you don't feel the need to sell, you have an asset sitting there. Take your time and learn enough that you feel comfortable. You might as well get all you can out of that asset.

[mills]

Home work time.

First contact the Kentucky Division of Forestry. I understand that they will assess and mark up to 50 acres for free. They may also have some insight to your logger. The Ky Division of Forestry web site has a resources section that if you scroll down you will find a pdf file called "Growing Gold". At the end of this file you will find the average price paid in you area for logs by species and grade.

The Kentucky Master Logger web site (http://dept.ca.uky.edu/masterlogger/index.php) maintains a list by county of all certified loggers. They also keep a list of loggers that, for what ever reason, are considered as bad actors.

I cut in western Kentucky. Mainly smaller tracts, and all on shares. Normally 50/50, but have gone up to 60/40 if there is a high percentage of white oak stave or vaneer. The mill measures, grades the logs, and writes separate checks for the land owner and me. I attach copies of the scale sheets when I hand the land owner his check. When the job is complete I will give him a spread sheet listing all transactions, and any agreed improvements made to his property. Most of the other loggers I've dealt with are honest, hard working people, but that's not always the case. The good thing is that very few of them are still in business. Contact the forester first. He'll have a lot of information for you.

[hollywoodmfg]

wow there is alot here. First in this area there is no percentage if u don't have cash up front u don't buy timber.With some references there is some great loggers around with forestry experience . Unfortunately there is alot of guys that buy a chainsaw and call themselves a logger.foresters can also b great but most around here work on a percentage too so if u don't have much timber value they wont bother in that case a good logger may b ur bets bet. Any way u should educate yourself enough to make the best decision for u . ur trees won't devalue standing.Take ur time!   

[Ron Scott]

As stated by others, seek out the services of a professional forester to help determine the best management prescription and practices to meet the desired objectives that you have for your property. This should be done before any timber harvest contract is agreed to.

[Okrafarmer]

If any of you know a really good forester in western KY that doesn't mind dealing with small lots, my parents have about 15 acres of hardwoods that they might use some help with. My dad had one forester come who said to leave it all for ten years and then clearcut it. My dad does not want to clearcut it, but improve, select cut, and manage it over time. He was mad that shortly after the forester said that, a huge healthy red oak blew down in the wind. He says he could lose a lot of good timber in ten years.

PM me if you have any good personal recommendations.

[SwampDonkey]

Just a natural part of the stand dynamics. The forester can't predict that your dad's woods might have a forest fire come through either. When a forester visits your land and does a plan, that is just a snapshot in time and everything after that being discussed is past tense because 5 years from then things are different, in fact the next day to. ;)

Stand dynamics is actually a course in college that looks at different stands and how they change with age, competition and environment (bugs, fire, weather events, logging). ;) It's just one of those tools to make forecasts and models.

[ga jones]

In this area percentage is more common than any other way. with a forester he takes his percentage you loose. bid sale mills only pay for grade. you loose.A good logger alone will make you the most money.manage the stand the way you want. You pay the taxes.The problem is trust. People think you cant trust loggers you can only trust a forester.thats not true and will never be true.There are crooked people in all aspects of life.

[Jeff]

People think you cant trust loggers you can only trust a forester

That has never been said here. Never, not once. Let me guess. You are a logger.

[Shotgun]

And some folks think that you can trust all loggers.  That isn't true and never will be true.  All it takes is one dishonest forester, or logger.  That's why you need to do your own homework.  And I'll keep saying that whenever I get the chance.  I know that I'm biased, but if someone shows up at my door, they have to overcome quite a bit before I'll trust them.  Check them all out before you trust them to do your work.  And then make sure that you get a contract.  You might want to have your attorney check the contract over before you give them the go ahead.

You can't trust anyone any more, even politicians.    :D

Norm

[Claybraker]

You might want to have your attorney check the contract over before you give them the go ahead.

Sheesh, talk about a profession that's held in low esteem. 

There is a built in conflict between loggers and landowners. The logger needs to extract the most value at the least cost, and the landowner (usually) is concerned with what condition the property is left in. That's not always true, the developer who owns the property next to mine had his place logged last year, and he was looking for a quick buck. I think he raped the place, but his decision was valid for his point of view. He's looking at the next interest payment, and we're looking at the next generation. Both views have merit.

neckbeard, you spoke of selling enough timber to finance building a pond. As far as management plans go, nothing wrong with that. Will you net out enough from this sale to achieve that?

[drobertson]

I think it all depends on how long a forrester has been in the timber. As a tool maker, I have seen many engineers, but sadly they have not been on the floor, even cut a chip. There are so many good loggers, that have been there and done that. Good communication is the key factor, as it is with anything.  It is a sad thing when books take presedence over experience. But equally when one that does not know is taken by one that should know.  One should be careful, not paranoid, informed, not emotional.

[thecfarm]

I'm just like Shotgun. I had my place logged,I walked the lots this logger cut I think for 20 years. Always very critical as I always am. I needed a contractor to do the digging for the house. I might of paid a little more but saw some other places and homes that the "cheaper" guys had done.  : Not impressed. I always tell people when you get a logger if he says I can be there in a month tell him not to bother. I have to wait a year for my logger. He is very busy. We have our dogs groomed. Usually it's a 2 week wait. Which is fine. She is busy because people like the job she does. I'm a hard man and I don't want a bad job done,no matter what I'm having done. I always check past jobs. I looked for a sawmill and I would see one on someone land and I would stop and talk to them, I did my OWB the same way.

[terry f]

     Can I ask, why any landowner would sell into this market.

[Jeff]

That's a pretty easy question.  Haven't you ever been broke?

[terry f]

   Even broke, it would be tough watching a load of logs, that take a lifetime to grow, leave your place, knowing there might be a hundred dollar bill on the other end. To answer your question, I've been broker than most.

[thecfarm]

It would be even tougher to watch an estate auction on my land.

[ga jones]

First I am a logger. second i never said the people here dont trust loggers. It was meant a generlization of public trust and belief.third I cant see where the market is that bad. I just did a job cut 38 trees and made the land owner 5000.00 I dont think thats to bad.If the market was that bad knowone would be selling there timber.

[grassfed]

Can I ask, why any landowner would sell into this market.

Things can always get worse,trees rot, released crop trees can then flourish. This is why I cut what needs to be cut every year; as long as I am healthy and conditions permit.  I should say that I don't cut everything that could be cut every year. I have +-300 acres of my farm that are managed forest stands. I cut approx 20- 30 acres a year as part of an overall uneven age stand management plan. I try to work around markets as much as makes sense and each stand is different in terms of maturity. 

[terry f]

    Agreed thecfarm.  Ga jones, around here its 265 for white fir, 280-310 larch and doug fir. What does it cost to put the logs to the mill, 40 miles away, average ground, three to four thousand feet on a truck? I hear 250-260, so that doesn't leave much.

[ga jones]

sap wood isnt worth much here either. .25cents bf white pine .28-32 hemlock. There is no market for spruce or fir here. thats mostly yard trees anyway. I only cut sap wood if it needs cut in a hard wood patch. Its one of those things that you dont want to do but comes with some of the stands.Its hard to make money just cutting sap wood.good hardwood brings 40-60 cents a foot average.depending on species.diameter.Thats $800.00-1000.oo to the land owner or more Per load.

[John Mc]

There are good loggers, and there are bad/dishonest loggers.  There are good foresters, and there are bad/dishonest foresters.  There are good plumbers, and there are bad/dishonest plumbers.  My bet is that the percentage of scumballs in just about any profession is about the same.

If the OP was experienced in this sort of thing, able to ask the right questions and do thorough reference checks, he just might be able to find himself a good logger and deal with him directly successfully.  My impression is that he is not in a position to be able to do this, so going it alone is a gamble.  He may find a good logger, but he doesn't really have the information & experience to judge whether who he has found is good or not.

Of course, he may also have the same problem knowing when he's found a good forester...