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So a logger came up to us today and offered us a contract.

Started by neckbeard, October 13, 2012, 10:58:17 AM

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neckbeard

He's offering 33% for ties, and 50% for grade. He says the sawmill pays out for both sides. They've been cutting in the area on several properties, and they wanted to cut here before they move on. Does this sound like a legitimate deal?

We have 37 acres, and I'm not interested in cutting all of it at this time. I wouldn't mind harvesting half of now, and maybe the other half down the road.

Deals around here are generally pretty informal, but I don't know if I should avoid this sort of thing or not.

thecfarm

I would check out his job,meaning the looks of the other lots. Is that how you would want yours to look? And ask the land owners if he does what he says he will,money wise too. I'm REAL fussy with my land.
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Kemper

I work in KY & would never offer that. I would either do 50/50 or 60/40 depending on wood. I would also let you know what you would getbon pulp ahead of time. What part of the state are you located in?

Shotgun

Tell him thanks, but no thanks.  Your post is full of red flags.  Do you, or would you, buy insurance from someone that shows up at your door and says that I want to sell you this while I'm in the neighborhood? ?  Don't rush into anything.  Do your homework. Get the services of a reputable professional forester.  It will pay in the long run.  My advice is don't even consider consider it

Good luck.  And keep us posted.

Norm
Joined The Forestry Forum 5 days before 9/11.

Gary_C

Quote from: neckbeard on October 13, 2012, 10:58:17 AM
They've been cutting in the area on several properties, and they wanted to cut here before they move on. Does this sound like a legitimate deal?

That's a standard line that is overused. If you cannot be there to verify grades and volumes, you will not be happy in the end. And will you be able to find this guy when you are unhappy in the end?

Norm said it well too. Say no.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Woodhauler

Check him out first, Not all guys are out to screw you! Sometimes you don't need to feed a forester on a small sale!!  Not all loggers are crooks!
2013 westernstar tri-axle with 2015 rotobec elite 80 loader!Sold 2000 westernstar tractor with stairs air ride trailer and a 1985 huskybrute 175 T/L loader!

stavebuyer

I don't know the logger, the terrain, or the quality of your timber. The percentage offerred is not uncommon for small loggers working on small tracts of average timber in many areas of the state. Cutting on shares can be a fair way to value small tracts and is very common practice in KY. Funny how quickly Foresters bad mouth loggers about cutting on "shares" but have no issues with consuting foresters working for a percentage of the sale price. The truth is many small woodlots would be more or less worthless without the small logger who cuts on percentage. Its hard to properly manage a few acres cost effectively unless you have the skills and desire to do it yourself. I would however not be in a rush, have a state forester evaluate and mark your timber prior to sale, and get more than one bid on the same trees; only sell marked tress unless its a clear-cut.

Jeff

Quote from: Woodhauler on October 13, 2012, 11:59:05 AM
Check him out first, Not all guys are out to screw you! Sometimes you don't need to feed a forester on a small sale!!  Not all loggers are crooks!

If you own 37 acres and that's all you own 37 acres is not a small sale to the landowner. It's everything. Certainly not all loggers are crooks. We all know that, but when it is your timber being cut, you only get one chance to find out if that one that is cutting yours is or isn't. This website came to be, because of a logger that was peaved because he didn't get a job, going back and telling the landowner that the logger that was on the job he lost, and brought in by a forester, was a timber thief.  The logger being lied about, just happen to be the Michigan Association of Timbermen's logger of the year.  Over hearing that conversation between the upset landowner and my boss letting him know that all was well that day, is what gave me the idea to go home and find out what I could find on-line. I typed in webcrawer "Michigan Timber Buyer"  The only thing that came up back then in the last millennium, was that ticked off logger, who we KNEW was a timber thief.  That was the day I decided to do something about it.
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Woodhauler

Jeff i totally understand, but in this world we live in everyone thinks everyone is out bto screw them! Some good old fashion background checking goes a long way! If you sell half the wood like he says he wants to , then pay a forester , he may bend up with a big disapointment on the money end. If he lives on the property and can keep a eye on things then i would say let  a local logger in! Check him out first. Go to saw shops, parts stores and so on, ask if they know him and if he is a ok jobber. Call the state forestry service and ask them about him too!
2013 westernstar tri-axle with 2015 rotobec elite 80 loader!Sold 2000 westernstar tractor with stairs air ride trailer and a 1985 huskybrute 175 T/L loader!

neckbeard

Quote from: Kemper on October 13, 2012, 11:11:45 AM
I work in KY & would never offer that. I would either do 50/50 or 60/40 depending on wood. I would also let you know what you would getbon pulp ahead of time. What part of the state are you located in?

In McCreary county close to TN.

As an aside, I had a bit of a property line dispute with this logger when he was cutting in the adjacent property. I was in the wrong, and I could tell he was peeved at me. I'm not sure if I want to deal with someone that might have a grudge. Still, I understand he already has all his equipment in the area, so it's advantageous for him to cut here now.

I'm also not real happy with how the adjacent properties looked after being logged, but I really don't have anything to compare it to.

bill m

You don't need to compare it to anything else. Ask yourself is that what you want your woods to look like? I am a logger and would never cut on percentages and always recommend a forester who will be working for them not me. As everyone has said don't be in a hurry. Because he is in the area working it is only to his advantage not yours to cut your timber now.
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drobertson

Be careful, I almost would wait, and find a small logger that will go halves,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Ken

As already said it is only in the loggers best interest to be able to do the job now while in the area.  I suspect your trees are not going away anytime soon.  If you are to hire any logger be prepared to do your homework on his past practices.  Don't necessarily only take names of references that he gives you.  Check around and visit other jobs done by whatever logger you may want to work with.   

Many reputable loggers are very able to do a quality job without the input of a forester but the landowner should educate themselves on best forestry practices if they are not hiring the services of an independant third party supervisor.
Lots of toys for working in the bush

Woodhauler

Quote from: Ken on October 13, 2012, 02:31:42 PM
As already said it is only in the loggers best interest to be able to do the job now while in the area.  I suspect your trees are not going away anytime soon.  If you are to hire any logger be prepared to do your homework on his past practices.  Don't necessarily only take names of references that he gives you.  Check around and visit other jobs done by whatever logger you may want to work with.   

Many reputable loggers are very able to do a quality job without the input of a forester but the landowner should educate themselves on best forestry practices if they are not hiring the services of an independant third party supervisor.
Very well said Ken!
2013 westernstar tri-axle with 2015 rotobec elite 80 loader!Sold 2000 westernstar tractor with stairs air ride trailer and a 1985 huskybrute 175 T/L loader!

Claybraker

The good news is, now you know there is enough timber on your property to interest a logger. The bad news is- you still don't know what it's worth, or could potentially be worth a few years down the road.

If his plan is to cut everything that's worth cutting and leave the crap, that's not in your long term best interest.

You and I, as landowners, are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to timber sales. We don't do it very often, and have to live with any mistakes for a long time. Since this is your first rodeo, get a management plan first. Then generate a cutting plan, based on your objectives. Not what's convenient to a logger that happens to be in the area at the time.

Okrafarmer

Shows how much I know, but number-wise, I would have thought his percentages were quite generous, in this economy, and for such a small lot. Half of 37 acres isn't worth the time of many loggers, and with mill prices so low, who would want to to cut for any less than 50% of the good stuff, and 67% of the bad stuff? I wouldn't log even for those numbers, in this log market.

I have offered someone 33% of the sawlogs, and 10% of the pulp, for small lots. No takers, so far, but I'm also not needing to do it that badly. Usually people pay us to take trees away.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Corley5

Ask him who he's logged for in your neighborhood and go talk to them.  I do 60/40 for sawlogs and veneer after trucking expenses.  Sixty to me.  Seventy/thirty on 100" sawbolts also after trucking and $10 a cord for hardwood and aspen pulp.  Basswood pays 8. 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

thenorthman

If he was in the area he should probably give a little sweeter deal on the ties, but the grade saw logs 50% is pretty good with timber prices in the pooper.  Just make sure he's not going to try and charge you for equipment delivery... unless its spread around to the other property as well.  As far as the land looking  bad after logging,  a bit of scarring is going to happen.  What you want to look at is brush everywhere (tops and branches) they should be in stacks or clumps, excessive rutting along skid roads,  a little will happen but they should fill them in so there is no standing water,(a skid road should look like an old timey wagon trail made by huge tires),  if they are thinning look for spots along skid roads where bark has been peeled from the standing trees this should be kept to a minimum...although it does happen and is unavoidable sometimes it shouldn't be every tree,  see if they left any trees hanging in other trees this is just bad and dangerous, they should fix this problem before they move on to another job (personally I fix that before anything else is done).  So in other words the land will be scarred and a little messy  but you should have healthy trees left over and be able to walk around your property without falling into a tiger trap of brush or drowing in a swamp made by skidder tires. 

    All that being said, door to door timber buyers make me nervous, not that they are crooked its just that they seem more likely to be crooked
well that didn't work

Okrafarmer

Don't you want the brush spread out evenly across the property, so it will rot down and fertilize the land evenly?
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

thenorthman

Its a fire danger thing,  piles only burn in one place while spread out burns everywhere, and can light anywhere.  Seems that they rot about the same in piles or spread out... maybe this is one of those east coast west coast things?  They do a bunch more chipping/grinding of the slash around here anyway so there really isn't a whole lot of slash left over, except when us gypo's are through with it grinders and chippers are spendy, torches and a few gallons of diesel are still pretty cheap(although sort of against the "law" now around here)
well that didn't work

SwampDonkey

I prefer dispersed brush myself , where the tree fell, and it's gone within 10 years. Logging isn't parkland, but it's not about trashing the place either. One of the reasons I hate brush piles is it's porcupine houses. ;) If your in white cedar ground and it's left in piles it will be there a very long time.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

CuddleBugFirewood

Unfortunately, my experience as a small time logger is that not many landowners want to take the time to properly educate themselves about timber managment.  They only want to take the "trees that are worth something," and when you try to explain timber stand improvement or management, the deer in the headlights look, or other  responses like "I appreciate all the different trees"  Little do they relize, that when you continue to cut good oak/hickory, you are leaving more sasafrass, dogwood, maple to take their place if you are not careful.  It is certainly a challange to keep the landowner happy and encourage responsible forestry.  It is discouraging at times.  People don't mind putting fertilizer on the farm field, or dry dams to prevent erosion, but they have a hard time spending money on the woodlot.  I am glad to see this forum has individuals that are generally interested in forestry and the long term management of the forest.

CuddleBugFirewood

I charge 18 to 20 cents a board foot for small lots close to home, more if the job is far away, or their is extra work in creating a landing/building a road.  This includes trucking of non-grade logs (pallet / mat logs) to the nearest mill/best market.  Grade and veneer buyers write a check at the landing and pick up with their trucks. 

Anything over 20 cents a board foot goes to the landowner with a copy of the mill slip and copy of the mill check.  This arrangement works out from anywhere to 30% to 40% me on good timber with lots of veneer/grade logs to 70-75% me on poor timber with very few grade logs.  I pay $3 ton for pulpwood to landowner.  I figure it cost me the same to drag a poor log out of the woods as it does a good log. 

SwampDonkey

That's another thing is roads and crossings. Some owners don't figure this in with taking those trees. Now granted some loggers can build some quick roads, more like ditches and some fellas will built proper roads to. Personally I don't like dozed roads because they mostly are a big ditch with the soil scalped off and pushed to the sides like a channel and nowhere for the water to drain off. Usually leaves piles of mud in berms all along the road with trees shoved over into surrounding trees. A real mess. Not allowed on public land.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

Logger choice in management often doesn't end up well.  What's the incentive to cut out low quality wood?  Get someone impartial to mark the timber, then have a lump sum sale, payable in advance.  You're taking on a lot of risk in this arrangement without a bigger payday.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

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