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MS461 Arrives

Started by joe_indi, October 10, 2012, 10:48:37 PM

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joe_indi

The MS461 has been introduced here.Retailers have already started selling them.
Price? same as the MS460 for the time being.
MS460 will no longer be available other than existing stocks.
Has it come to your areas also?

Joe

joe_indi


sawguy21

old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

joe_indi

Quote from: sawguy21 on October 11, 2012, 09:52:36 AM
Where is his ppe? :o
If you mean protective clothing, no one uses it here.

Joe

Cut4fun

Yes Joe the 461 has been sold for about a month now in TN. Some other dealers are just now getting them too.  Depends on the dealer and who their distributor it seems.

JohnG28

Thanks Joe, good to see a new saw running. Looks like a screamer. Is that a 20" or 24" on it? Looks like 20 but not sure. Don't know much about rubber trees but sure looks to make light work of them.
Stihl MS361, 460 & 200T, Jonsered 490, Jonsereds 90, Husky 350 & 142, Homelite XL and Super XL

joe_indi

Quote from: JohnG28 on October 11, 2012, 09:12:22 PM
.......... Looks like a screamer. Is that a 20" or 24" on it? Looks like 20 but not sure. Don't know much about rubber trees but sure looks to make light work of them.
18" Guidebar. Saw operators run to 4.5 to 5.5' height and bigger bars would be a bit unwieldy for them. So 18" is standard here.
The undersized bar is why pro saws like this one scream.I see more damage here from 'under-load' than overload.
The rubber tree is semi hard wood but the rubber latex (resin) is what puts some load on the chain and bar rails.
Joe

Madman_Mark

So whats the difference between the "old" MS 460 and the "new" MS 461 ? I see it advertised here for over $1000.00 Candian,thats what I paid for my MS 460 Magnum last year.

joe_indi

Quote from: Madman_Mark on October 12, 2012, 06:28:51 AM
So whats the difference between the "old" MS 460 and the "new" MS 461 ?...

There are many differences between the two.Here are some of the main differences:

Cylinder
The transfer ports have been moved from the sides to the front.The cylinder base is broader because of this.
Bore remains the same


Piston
The piston is taller and has this cut off in the front.


Ignition
The ignition module has 3 poles and has a speed limiter (13500 max)



Muffler
The outlet is smaller than that of a MS 460, for increased back pressure?




Joe

fuzzybear

  To be honest I'm more interested in your opperation than the saw. Is this your family? and what will the logs be used for?
FB
I never met a tree I didn't like!!

Ianab

Quote from: fuzzybear on October 13, 2012, 02:24:42 AM
  To be honest I'm more interested in your opperation than the saw. Is this your family? and what will the logs be used for?
FB

Rubberwood  turns up in a lot of imported furniture here. Sawn, dried, finger jointed and glued up into large laminated table tops etc. It's a medium density hardwood, and makes quite nice furniture, certainly a step above MDF anyway.  :D  You can see the piece is a glue up, but it's all solid hardwood, for a sensible price.

Because it's remanufactured they can use relatively small and short logs. 

From Wikipedia
QuoteRubberwood has a dense grain that is easily controlled in the kiln drying process. Rubberwood has very little shrinkage making it one of the more stable construction materials available for furniture, toys and kitchen accessories. It is not suitable for outdoor usage.

Because it's from plantation trees it's also "green". No rainforest was harmed in the making of this table etc.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

joe_indi

Quote from: fuzzybear on October 13, 2012, 02:24:42 AM
  .......... Is this your family?and what will the logs be used for? FB
:D :D :D
No
:D :D :D :D
They are hired hands.
Years ago the rubber wood was used for humbler purposes like filler shavings for plywood, packing crates, raw material in paper mills, firewood etc.

But now as Ian has mentioned, it goes in large volumes for the furniture.
But smaller sizes are used as an industrial fuel as a substitute for fossil fuels, primarily in boilers.
The resultant carbon credits are sold to international industrial buyers.

Ian, you are right on all that about processed rubber wood etc.
The treated rubber wood has excellent grains, but the wood is too light in color. But some innovative carpenters here use a natural process to darken the wood.
We have teak trees growing everywhere.
The teak leaves are ground and mixed with linseed oil(I think) and something else, maybe turpentine.The dark colored mixture is rubbed onto the wood.When the teak resins age (a week or so) it turns dark brown, similar to the color of teak wood.

You are spot on on the environmental impact (or the lack of it) in the cutting involved.I would say this one of the rare areas where chainsaws have the same designation as a harvester (for grain that is).
But that quote from Wikipedia needs some correction.
Rubber wood is used out doors after a special treatment, especially in greenhouses.But the treated wood has some toxic residues, I think.

Joe



Al_Smith

Not to change the subject but where I work we just got a huge load of stuff from India .Robotics type gantry loaders to be exact .The plywood crates it was shipped in looks like either teak or mahogany .It is clear grained enough you could make cabinite doors or some such thing .

I haven't looked at it that close as it might not be real solid depending on what was used under the top veneers .Just seems like some high grade stuff to use for crating .

beenthere

May be scraps or cut-offs from a wood plant and this saves putting them in a landfill or burning them. Just a guess.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

joe_indi

Quote from: beenthere on October 13, 2012, 08:40:48 PM
May be scraps or cut-offs from a wood plant and this saves putting them in a landfill or burning them. Just a guess.
Though we  have LPG as a fuel in most kitchens, wood based fuel is still a necessity. Wood shavings, saw dust, scraps, twigs..every part of the tree gets used.
But never for landfills. Wood is too valuable for that out here.

Quote from: Al_Smith on October 13, 2012, 07:30:04 PM
........The plywood crates it was shipped in looks like either teak or mahogany .It is clear grained enough you could make cabinite doors or some such thing .
I haven't looked at it that close as it might not be real solid depending on what was used under the top veneers .Just seems like some high grade stuff to use for crating .
Must be the non-MDF plywood made here.Its good for shelves and stuff, but water might damage them. Paint would help.
Shops and hotels use it for paneling.

Joe

Al_Smith

Well I kind of wonder .Some years back I was involved in installing high speed automated machinery for Honda at an engine plant in Anna Ohio .All that plywood looked pretty much like the stuff I just mentioned .

I can only assume it to be a better grade of plywood due to the fact it had to be able to withstand ocean shipment clear accross the Pacific ocean .

Al_Smith

Now this 461 business .On several forums a few of us are slightly confused about the fresh air blowdown ports .Pictures say a lot but until a person actually sees it it can be mind boggling .

So does the cut out on the piston skirt "valve off " the air ? Also which of the upper transfer ports does the air come out .

joe_indi

Quote from: Al_Smith on October 14, 2012, 05:13:32 AM
Now this 461 business .On several forums a few of us are slightly confused about the fresh air blowdown ports .Pictures say a lot but until a person actually sees it it can be mind boggling .

So does the cut out on the piston skirt "valve off " the air ? Also which of the upper transfer ports does the air come out .

Al,

I will try to explain that the best way I can because my 'book' knowledge is pretty low on technical stuff.

Where the design of the 461 differs from other stratified charge engines is that the others use fresh air routed through an additional air valve(butterfly) at the intake.
All that achieved with some additional fancy hardware at the carb end.

Well, the 461 does not use fresh air for the stratification. Instead it uses the exhaust gases for doing the job.Which is why the trasfer  ports are begin on the exhaust side of the cylinder, at the bottom end and curve upwards to either sideon the cylinder walls.

The result is a less complicated strato charged engine.
The cut out on  the piston skirt does seem to act as an on/off valve for controlling the intake air from the cylinder to the transfer ports.

The carb looks the same as the one on the 460, except for this difference on the outside



This is to reduce the opening of the carb butterfly in the 'Start' position.
Even a slight pressure on the throttle has the engine screaming in the mid ranges.So that additional arm helps the scream at a reasonable level.

The jet sizes are changed. low is richer. High is leaner, for the removable high speed jet.(0.58 in place of the 0.68)

To increase air velocity into the crankcase, for better flushing of the crankcase and for better directional air flow, something called a washbridge has been fitted across both halves of the crankcase, at the inlet side



This is the view of the washbridge as seen through the manifold





Joe

isawlogs

 Nice video, what is used to take the wood out ???
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Al_Smith

Thanks for clearing things up Joe .I now see the error in my way of thinking .

I had seen pictures which aren't as clear as yours on another site and mistakenly thought I saw a set of conventional side lower transfers which in reality was a reflection in the photo .That's what confused me .

Actually after looking at it the thing is pretty simple .

joe_indi

Quote from: isawlogs on October 14, 2012, 03:22:37 PM
........what is used to take the wood out ???

12 Ton trucks overloaded to 20-25 tons!  :D
Loading crews, usually from the unions transport the wood manually to the trucks used and also load them, manually.

Quote from: Al_Smith on October 14, 2012, 06:49:42 PM........
Actually after looking at it the thing is pretty simple .
That was my impression also after I 'dissected' my first MS461.
No complications.
But fine tuning the carb would be a pain because of the speed limiter at 13500 rpm.Anything above that causes the tachometer to go berserk.
Doing a 'by ear' tune-up is a bit dicey for me because I need time to get familiar with this saw
I found an easy fix for that!
When you want to adjust the carb, replace the ignition module with that of a MS460. That eliminates the speed limiter. Do the tuning and refit the original module.
This method improved the performance by at least 15%.
Joe

Al_Smith

It would seemingly make sense that if one looked at the big picture all they've done is improve the transfer .Which is exactly what we who have a propensity to soup the things up do  only we do it differently .

Now comes the big question .In time to come it would not surprise me in the least if this design providing it works out might replace that of the 201 and 441 .In addition a couple of blowers namely the BG 86 that replaced the BG 85 .There might be more examples I'm not famailiar with also .Again time will tell as it always does .

Stihlnorm

The "delayed strat" design is conducive to larger displacement engines. I wouldnt expect to see it on anything under 50 cc's. They need the piston displacement to make the delayed strat work.

HolmenTree

Quote from: joe_indi on October 14, 2012, 02:35:12 PM
Quote from: Al_Smith on October 14, 2012, 05:13:32 AM
Now this 461 business .On several forums a few of us are slightly confused about the fresh air blowdown ports .Pictures say a lot but until a person actually sees it it can be mind boggling .

So does the cut out on the piston skirt "valve off " the air ? Also which of the upper transfer ports does the air come out .



Well, the 461 does not use fresh air for the stratification. Instead it uses the exhaust gases for doing the job.Which is why the trasfer  ports are begin on the exhaust side of the cylinder, at the bottom end and curve upwards to either sideon the cylinder walls.

The result is a less complicated strato charged engine.
The cut out on  the piston skirt does seem to act as an on/off valve for controlling the intake air from the cylinder to the transfer ports.

Joe
That's what I originally thought how the 461 porting setup worked but still not fully understood.

Joe I'm still not sure how the piston skirt cutout acts into the porting scheme. When the piston is TDC can you see the cutout on the bottom of the piston skirt through the exhaust port? I would think no, but anything may be possible with this porting setup. I can see the cutout working at BDC too.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Al_Smith

Quote from: joe_indi on October 14, 2012, 11:46:13 PM
   my first MS461.
No complications.
But fine tuning the carb would be a pain because of the speed limiter at 13500 rpm.Anything above that causes the tachometer to go berserk.
 
It would make sense they have the engine rev limited for several reasons .The biggest I'd imagine is because at speeds above ,although 13,500 is plenty it's more than likely the port timing would be off enough the anti -pollution design would not work properly .

Off the subject perhaps but it looks like this with design you could enhance it a bit without going through all the rocket science of doing a 441 .On the other hand if I were to get my hot little hands on one it will be so far in the future I'll be too old to even care about it any more . :D Ha as it is it's very rare to get a saw less than 20 years old passing my way .

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