Ideas for faster hydraulics

[JFarmer]

I am wanting to speed up the hydraulics on my LT40. I am thinking about using a wood splitter pump powered off of an electric motor. Any ideas on what size pump,motor, and resevoir I would need. Any ideas and tips would be helpful, thanks.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I have an LT40,  J.

Just asking though, why are you wanting to speed up your hydraulics?

Thanks, David

[Magicman]

My first thought is if there is a restriction or a mechanical problem with your present hydraulics.  I do have a SuperHydraulic which has dual hydraulic pumps, but I would not want anything to operate faster.

Maybe another hydraulic pump/motor assembly could be added to yours?  That way there would be minimal re-plumbing.

[Dan_Shade]

a super is much faster than a regular model.

I wish my hydraulics were faster too.

[Bibbyman]

A number of members have reworked the hydraulic systems. 

Most are documented in the topic "Useful sawmill mods". Try the link below.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,7789.0.html

We have a power pack that pumps 6gpm. 7.5hp 3ph motor. 20 gallon tank.   Crazy fast.  If you have an older LT40 standard hydraulic mill, you probably can't use that many gpm. 

Wood-Mizer can advise you on how fast and what pressure you can run the hydraulics on your mill.

[Al_Smith]

The rule of thumb for power is 1 HP per gallon per minute at 1500 PSI ,electric .Twice that on gasoline .

How a multi stage splitter gets by with what would appear less power is simple .The high volume portion of the pump transfers to high pressure lower volume at pressures between 4oo to 900 PSI .

For example a 16 GMP pump might move 16 GPM at volume but only 5 or so at high pressure .So in theory an 8 HP gas engine would get it although an 11 might work better .

It seems surplus center hydraulics is a favorite for hydraulics stuff on this site .They list a dandy chaft showing pump power requirements ,output work load on cylinders and all kinds of handy things to reference .

I never even heard of the place until it got mentioned on this site but their prices aren't too bad .

[Larry]

You wouldn't want a two stage log splitter pump.  It might decide to shift right in the middle of when your trying to turn a log.

Surplus Center is your friend on that kind of stuff.  Get the specs from WM and go.

Sometimes you can pick up power packs at auction but there usually in demand.  Sure would save a lot of getting all the parts for a diy.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I have read the replies to J.Farmer's question.

I do not have a super HD. My LT40 has one HD pump. I have read about the "mods" members do to there HD systems and all the other mathamatical ways of boosting a HD system to go faster.

However, I'm looking at it from a safety issue..... plus..... a good way maybe to damage a perfectly good band mill.

The speed of my HD system was set by Wood-mizer and I figure it was for a reason.

Just my thoughts. 

[Brucer]

Newer LT40 Hydraulic mills have an empty space in the control box, beside the existing pump/motor. If the mill were a Super, that's where the second pump/motor would go. Why not buy a second unit from WM?

[JFarmer]

I am looking for something like bibbyman has. I had an LT70 electric a few years back, and I liked the speed of the hydraulics. Right now I am super busy trying to keep up and I need speed. My mill is an 01 and it does have the mounting holes in the box for a seperate pump, but I want to go a different route.

[pineywoods]

I would advise caution here.. If your mill is a fixed setup, the deal bibby has is the way to go. I have added hydraulics to 3 manual mills, and essentially went the same way as bibby. One mill has a 3gpm pump and a 1 hp 1750 rpm electric motor-works but kinda slow. The next one uses a 3gpm pump and 2 hp 3600 rpm motor--much better. The last one is a 3 hp 3600 rpm motor and a 2 stage log splitter pump 4 gpm hi, 9 gpm low. I had to disable the 9gpm side, a 3hp motor is not enough, but it's plenty fast.

Adding a second 12 volt power pack probably not a good idea. It would work, for a while, but most likely cause un-intended consequences. I would expect burned solenoid contacts, over heated wiring and an alternator/battery that won't keep up with the load. A long term side effect would most likely be shortened life of the head support/cam follower bearings. Unless you added some check valves to prevent it, loosing electric power to either power pack will result in blown pump seals in the non-functioning pack.
In short, do-able but it ain't quite as simple as it looks...

[Dan_Shade]

I looked into upgrading my hydraulics to equal a super's at one time.

I went so far as to figure out all of the part differences.  On an LT40, there are a lot of differences, battery, alternator, up/down/drive motors, etc.

Ultimately, I didn't do it, because it could impact factory support for my serial number, and also, it would have cost a bunch of cash.  I figured my money would be better spent upgrading to a super...

If I had a stationary setup, it would be probably be something like Bibby's setup.

[ElectricAl]

I'm not sure what pump is in the early 2000's LT40 standard hydraulics, but it's close to the 1992-1995.

In the mid 90's a G51 pump was used and it produced 2.8 GPM at Free Flow. Keep in mind that most functions on a WM build 500-600 psi without any load.
But as the PSI goes up the GPM goes down on a DC system.
1.8 gpm @ 1000 psi,  1.5 gpm @ 1500 psi, 1.2 gpm @ 2000 psi which is bypass.

Now with an AC power pack the GPM stays constant as the pressure goes up.


Now if you want to experiment and try to judge your current flow with no load and a little back pressure check out the numbers below.

It would be good to get a pressure reading while testing to help decide the correct AC system.

A  3" cylinder with a 1" rod is our example.  The cylinder movement is based on inches per minute.
All numbers are approximate. 

@ 3 gpm  =    98 inches / minute  Out 
@ 3 gpm  =  110 inches / minute   In

@ 4 gpm  =   130 inches / minute  Out
@ 4 gpm  =   146 inches / minute  In

@ 5 gpm  =   163 inches / minute  Out
@ 5 gpm  =   184 inches / minute  In

@ 6 gpm  =    196 inches / minute  Out
@ 6 gpm  =    220 inches / minute  In
 
@ 7 gpm  =    229 inches / minute  Out
@ 7 gpm  =    257 inches / minute  In
 
@ 8 gpm  =    261 inches / minute  Out
@ 8 gpm  =    294 inches / minute  In 


Those following this thread might recall Bibbyman's pump being "Crazy Fast" .
He is @ 6 GPM and that is too much for the two plane clamp on a Super Mill.


If you choose to test your loader arms keep in mind there are 2 cylinders moving at the same time. So you'll have to double the stroke inches of one cylinder.



For our 1993 LT40E15  we have a 3 hp  2 gpm  220 volt power pack. 
It is a good compromise for no load vs. full load gpm.

[Al_Smith]

Just a thought and nothing more .If you used a splitter pump which is just two pumps operated in tandom you could set the relief valve basically so it doesn't shift at all .

Now the reason I say a splitter pump is they are a darn sight cheaper than a single stage .If you're only using 600 PSI on the system the components should last almost forever .

On that I have a set of Parker -Hannifin books on hydraulics and their applications .If you say run a system designed for 3000 max at reduced pressures like 600 the life of the components goes up exponentially  like 10-12 times or more .

[hackberry jake]

That's pretty much how my system is set up. Everything is rated for at least 3000psi and I have the pressure regulator set to max out around 500. I have only ha to turn it up once since I built my turner for a monster white oak log. Mine uses an ac 2hp motor and a 2gpm pump. When it gets cold outside it slows down but when it's warm it is plenty fast for me. I don't think I would want one any faster. I can tear up cants easy enough as it is.

[JFarmer]

Thanks for all the tips and ideas. I think I am going to just buy a hydraulic power pack. I have been thinking about buying a new LT 50 electric for some time now, but this would be a lot cheaper!

[Migal]

 :D 440 Old's connected to a vilter flooded screw compressor running @ 3750 RPM Really large hose's on oil return with orfice between return and suction of compressor to set pressure at 3'000 psi  :D

[hackberry jake]

A hydraulic power pack is more expensive than its parts combined. You might hit pineywoods up. I know he has put together at least three of them. I got lucky and got a power pack from my work that they were throwing away. Saved me at least a grand.

[Migal]

 :D I tend to notice certain thing's that need thrown away at work also :D

[Bibbyman]

Those following this thread might recall Bibbyman's pump being "Crazy Fast" .
He is @ 6 GPM and that is too much for the two plane clamp on a Super Mill.

A couple of comments :

One major reason we have such a large pump unit is that we are also running a live deck off of it and it is the minimum size recommended for the application.

Although when running the mill, the hydraulic functions are fast when the valve is full open, the lever can be feathered achieve some balance.  Many functions can be ran wide open.

I'm guessing a flow regulator could be placed in those lines that do not need the speed.

We have had no problems with the two plane clamp holding up at this speed.  It is getting a bit loose in the joints but the mill has well over 5,000 hours on it.  Probably 4,000 being ran by this pump.

The only problem that has reoccurred is the failure of the tie rod threads that connect the back supports. While the back supports do tend to snap to attention and snap down quickly, I'm not sure if the snap is causing the problem.   I think the eyebolt worked loose early on and the threads became worn and the eyebolt pulled out. Once the threads were stripped, it became a failure point.  Instead of replacing the tie rod and eyebolt, I keep applying home remedies.

Like anything else you get accustom to, I don't know if I could run the mill with slower hydraulics.   I step up to a new mill at a show and pull a lever and think "what's wrong with this mill?".  It's like elevator music should be playing.

Another consideration when running a Wood-Mizer from a power pack is that you have hydraulic power anytime the pump is running.  This is, the mill head does not have to be on the contact strip. This feature has lots of advantages but also requires the operator to use discipline when sawing not to screw up and pull a lever when actually sawing.

While a power pack is a pretty heavy up front expense, it greatly reduces a lot of problems with the factory system. Gone is the power strip.  Gone is a bunch of solenoids. Gone is the finicky micro switch. Gone are the DC pump or pumps that tend to have a short life span.

[stavebuyer]

Those following this thread might recall Bibbyman's pump being "Crazy Fast" .
He is @ 6 GPM and that is too much for the two plane clamp on a Super Mill.

A couple of comments :

One major reason we have such a large pump unit is that we are also running a live deck off of it and it is the minimum size recommended for the application.

Although when running the mill, the hydraulic functions are fast when the valve is full open, the lever can be feathered achieve some balance.  Many functions can be ran wide open.

I'm guessing a flow regulator could be placed in those lines that do not need the speed.

We have had no problems with the two plane clamp holding up at this speed.  It is getting a bit loose in the joints but the mill has well over 5,000 hours on it.  Probably 4,000 being ran by this pump.

The only problem that has reoccurred is the failure of the tie rod threads that connect the back supports. While the back supports do tend to snap to attention and snap down quickly, I'm not sure if the snap is causing the problem.   I think the eyebolt worked loose early on and the threads became worn and the eyebolt pulled out. Once the threads were stripped, it became a failure point.  Instead of replacing the tie rod and eyebolt, I keep applying home remedies.

Like anything else you get accustom to, I don't know if I could run the mill with slower hydraulics.   I step up to a new mill at a show and pull a lever and think "what's wrong with this mill?".  It's like elevator music should be playing.

Another consideration when running a Wood-Mizer from a power pack is that you have hydraulic power anytime the pump is running.  This is, the mill head does not have to be on the contact strip. This feature has lots of advantages but also requires the operator to use discipline when sawing not to screw up and pull a lever when actually sawing.

While a power pack is a pretty heavy up front expense, it greatly reduces a lot of problems with the factory system. Gone is the power strip.  Gone is a bunch of solenoids. Gone is the finicky micro switch. Gone are the DC pump or pumps that tend to have a short life span.

The power strip is the weak point in the WM mills. My LT70 has 530 hrs. I have replaced 2 H-bridges, a solenoid, front contact strip and contact button. Lost time and parts easily over 4K not counting the time wasted polishing,brushing, and adjusting the contact buttons so the hydraulics would work or production lost repositioning the sawhead trying to a find a spot on the contact strip that would make a connection. As soon as the new building is wired the factory system will be bypassed.  The setworks electronics are a necessary evil and worth the maintenance but TK's hydraulic pony motor is a much more reliable setup for a portable application. One WM tech suggested bypassing the power strip with a spare battery connected to a trickle charger to eliminate the contact strip. That would still leave the DC pumps but eliminate the rest of the headaches.

[Al_Smith]

  When it gets cold outside it slows down but when it's warm it is plenty fast for me. I don't think I would want one any faster. I can tear up cants easy enough as it is.

If you use type a hydraulic fluid which is basically dextron automatic transmission fluid the cold won't have as much effect on the system .

I worked for an electical contractor who was a tight wad in spite of being a multi millionaire .One of his line trucks blew a pressure hose and within minutes blew all 30 gallons of fluid out all over the ground .After it was repaired he had it filled with standard 10 WT hydraulic fluid .It took a half hour in cold weather before that thing would even lift the boom .After he figured what he was loosing in labor every day he had it changed back to type A .Once again proving you can take Bill out of the hills but you can't take the hills out of Bill .

[ladylake]

Those following this thread might recall Bibbyman's pump being "Crazy Fast" .
He is @ 6 GPM and that is too much for the two plane clamp on a Super Mill.

A couple of comments :

One major reason we have such a large pump unit is that we are also running a live deck off of it and it is the minimum size recommended for the application.

Although when running the mill, the hydraulic functions are fast when the valve is full open, the lever can be feathered achieve some balance.  Many functions can be ran wide open.

I'm guessing a flow regulator could be placed in those lines that do not need the speed.

We have had no problems with the two plane clamp holding up at this speed.  It is getting a bit loose in the joints but the mill has well over 5,000 hours on it.  Probably 4,000 being ran by this pump.

The only problem that has reoccurred is the failure of the tie rod threads that connect the back supports. While the back supports do tend to snap to attention and snap down quickly, I'm not sure if the snap is causing the problem.   I think the eyebolt worked loose early on and the threads became worn and the eyebolt pulled out. Once the threads were stripped, it became a failure point.  Instead of replacing the tie rod and eyebolt, I keep applying home remedies.

Like anything else you get accustom to, I don't know if I could run the mill with slower hydraulics.   I step up to a new mill at a show and pull a lever and think "what's wrong with this mill?".  It's like elevator music should be playing.

Another consideration when running a Wood-Mizer from a power pack is that you have hydraulic power anytime the pump is running.  This is, the mill head does not have to be on the contact strip. This feature has lots of advantages but also requires the operator to use discipline when sawing not to screw up and pull a lever when actually sawing.

While a power pack is a pretty heavy up front expense, it greatly reduces a lot of problems with the factory system. Gone is the power strip.  Gone is a bunch of solenoids. Gone is the finicky micro switch. Gone are the DC pump or pumps that tend to have a short life span.

The power strip is the weak point in the WM mills. My LT70 has 530 hrs. I have replaced 2 H-bridges, a solenoid, front contact strip and contact button. Lost time and parts easily over 4K not counting the time wasted polishing,brushing, and adjusting the contact buttons so the hydraulics would work or production lost repositioning the sawhead trying to a find a spot on the contact strip that would make a connection. As soon as the new building is wired the factory system will be bypassed.  The setworks electronics are a necessary evil and worth the maintenance but TK's hydraulic pony motor is a much more reliable setup for a portable application. One WM tech suggested bypassing the power strip with a spare battery connected to a trickle charger to eliminate the contact strip. That would still leave the DC pumps but eliminate the rest of the headaches.

Can't say enough good about the hydraulic system on my B20 with the pony motor after 8500 hours and no trouble except putting a new $200 motor on after 5000 hours.   The pony motor system and chain turner were 2 of the big reasons I went with TK. The new TK mills have a engine mounted pump running the hoses and setworks through a enery chain allowing for hydraulic up-down also which is super fast.  If I had a stationary WM mill I'd have Bibbys setup on in less than a week.   Steve

[ElectricAl]

StaveBuyer,

Hearing about your 2 H Bridges going out is not good news.

I will be replacing an H Bridge on a LT50 this weekend. The Bridge started acting up at only 12 hours on the meter. It has 20 hours now.




ElectricAl