iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Plumbing a new OWB

Started by tpyounome, October 06, 2012, 03:09:18 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

tpyounome

I have the underground pipes run from where the boiler will be, into my basement.
Any idea where I could get some plans for the indoor plumbing to my furnace?  I will be installing a heat excahanger in the frunace and a side arm for the water heater.
What size pump is needed for a boiler that is 100' from the house?  Which line should the pump go on? 
You guys are my subject matter experts. 
Thanks.

upsnake

I have roughly a 100 run, and have a taco 009 pump.

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3931

Hope that link works, if it does here are some pics of my setup inside. I didn't use a sidearm, I am using a plate hx.

Not sure what you mean by which line should the pump go on?

I have mine at the back of the owb, since it is "pushing" the water from the stove that is my supply side.

AsaG

As with upsnake's system, my pumps are also on the supply side at the boiler and I also use a plate exchanger rather than a side arm for domestic HW. Without knowing more about your setup, such as pipe sizing and heat requirements, we can only guess about pump sizing.  For each GPM of flow rate and assuming a 20°F temperature drop, you will move ~10K Btu/hour.  Thus if your application requires 100K Btu/hour, you will need a flow rate of 10 GPM if your design temperature drop is 20°F.  If your design temperature drop is 10°F, you will need a flow rate of 20 GPM.  Once you calculate your flow rate, you will have to figure out the head loss of the system.  Items such as your heat exchanger are probably going to be an educated guess but the plumbing can be calculated with reasonable accuracy using the table and calculations at the links below..

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pressure-loss-plastic-pipes-d_404.html
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/minor-loss-coefficients-pipes-d_626.html

OTOH, many just wing it and more often than not, it works just fine.  I'm just a little OCD  about making sure I'll have the needed heat without using any more electricity to pump the water than absolutely necessary.    Since my boiler usually runs year-round, an extra 100W of unneeded load adds near 900 Kwh or about $95 (locally) in added annual energy costs.  Some wouldn't care but I'm cheap when it comes to spending $$$ and getting nothing in return.


sparky1

use the pump to push water into the house. Then run the supply to the water heater first, then to the furnace. then back to the owb. Thats what my dealer told me. worked so far for me.  I have a 007 taco, but im only pumping about 60 feet and doing the side arm, furnace and then to a garage heater.
Shaun J

sparky1

I used 1" pex for all the interior plumbing too.. I might redo some in copper when i get some free time to make it look cleaner, but it worked and its easy to use pex
Shaun J

thecfarm

Sound almost like me sparky,I might be 20-30 feet closer I have 2 zones,both 007.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

gspren

  My plumber who also has a OWB at his house put the pump in the basement near the exchanger because in his words "more room and the water don't care". Since the water is in a loop the only pressure to overcome is the exchanger and line friction.
Stihl 041, 044 & 261, Kubota 400 RTV, Kubota BX 2670, Ferris Zero turn

mrcaptainbob

I run about a hundred feet of PEX from my Central Boiler unit to the house. Just inside the basement it turns to copper and runs another thirty or so feet. The first hit is the first floor dhwh, then to the 1st floor bath. There it goes through either the hydronic floor heat or it's manual bypass, then on up to the 2nd floor dhwh. From there it goes to the 2nd floor bath hydronic floor heat with it's own manual bypass. From there it goes back to the hot water furnace in the basement. At that point it can be distributed to one or all of the four, thermostat controlled, heat zones. For the summer the two manual bypasses allow the water to flow only to the water heaters. Winter is when everything gets fired up. It's all one inch copper throughout, except for the floor heat. The baths have four runs paralleling each other of 1/2" PEX zig/zagging through the floor joists. They are sandwiched between the floor above them and insulation beneath. Very pleased with the arrangement. Incidentally, the hot water boiler furnace in the basement runs off of pro-pain. I turned the valves off around seven years ago. It's there as emergency backup. But the only thing using that pro-pain is the dryer. Seven years. Year round.

boilerman101

tpyounome there are great install illustrations on the www.centralboiler.com site, under "how it works", then go to technical illustrations. I used them to hook up my whole system.

tpyounome

So what are the pros and cons of the plate heat exchanger vs the side arm heat exchanger, for the domestic hot water heater?
I have 1" pex coming from the OWB.  Will 1" pex valves restrict the flow enought to worry about? 
Thanks

sparky1

I was going to put my pump in the basement as well, but I was cautioned that it might make just enough noise to be a nuisence. So i put on OWB.. as far as the pros and cons of the heat exchanger, i dont have one. My folks do and the one thing i noticed when i looked at theirs is that the potable water only goes through the xchanger as it enters the wather heater, where the side arm will keep cycling water to warm it up. I could be wrong in that, or maybe the guy hooked theirs up wrong. Thats what i seen though.
Shaun J

upsnake

Sparky you are correct, it only heats the water when the water is being used.

I have talked to some ppl that by passed their water heater completely and ran it it straight from the plate. Making a true on demand setup.

I choice to run mine from the plate into the water heater. In the winter I just turn the water heater down to pilot.

The reason I went this way was I wanted the water heater as a tempering tank. For example if somebody was taking a shower and somebody turned on a faucet I didn't want the classic water temp shock.

The plate I have (and it is just a cheaper little 10 plate, like 40 dollars). heats the water really good. Yes it does depending on the flow rate you are using hot water.

For example with just the shower going it is dumping almost 150 degree water into the tank. With the shower a sink and the washing machine going I think it dropped down to like 125 - 130.  Which is still plenty hot.

To address your item of only heating when using water, yes that is true, but it has not been a problem for me. I have just the cheapest water heater tank i could buy, and put a blanket around it. We left for the weekend and when we came back the water was still 120+ degrees in there. So the normal use of water everyday keeps dumping new hot water in the tank.

One thing that will want to put on is the tempering valve on your tank. You don't want 150 degree water coming out of our sink. That is just a trip to the er waiting to happen. (specially if you have kids). 

thecfarm

I had my installed by a plumber. I have the side arm for my hot water. I use my OWB all summer to heat my hot water. I just burn a bunch of small wood in the summer. I had him put a heat exchanger in my furnace duct work. I did put a stand alone heat exchanger in my basement. I had him put a control,like on a ceiling fan,on it so I could control the speed of the fan for noise control. My wife has a hard time sleeping and I know she would hear it run at full speed.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

snowstorm

when i set mine up. pump on the odwb to a manifold inside with 4 taco 007 pumps with check valves and one without the check valve for the water heater that is 50' away. when first fires up i run the water heater pump for a 1/2 hr or so then it is gravity feed for the rest of the winter. also add a temp guadge to the manifold any auto parts store will do

boilerman101

Either the side arm or plate exchangers will work for your domestic hot water. I have the plate but have to pull it off and clean it every 2 years as it builds calcium, lime and other hard water deposits in the fine honey comb plates inside the exchanger. My understanding is that the tube and shell is more forgiving of bad water and won't plug up as easily.

Boardcutter123

Hi just wanted to comment on hooking up a owb I am a retired plumber from N. Michigan and have installed many of them everyone seems to want something different but in my experience  when using the side tube set up for a water heater I always run the water through the heat exchanger in the furnace first then the water heater that way the water heater isn't taking heat away from the house ware it is need the most when ever I could I tried to get the person to put in a tempering tank a old electric water heater works good because you can clean them and the suggestion about the tempering valve I consider it a must. as far as what side to put the pump we always put them on the supply side know matter what kind of boiler gas,wood,fuel oil,residential, or commercial all the same. I have installed home made ones a lot of  mobile homes even built a complete separate system for a guy in a mobile home built a metal box insulated it with duct board installed a coil put a furnace fan behind it run separate duct down the middle under the trailer and took a six inch run off for each room and some return airs put in a relay for the thermostat and he had a complete separate system from his house furnace worked great. My old boss put one in and he was so cheap he wouldn't pay the extra for the insulated pipe so we cut 2" Styrofoam into 8" wide strips then used a table saw a cut groves half the size of the pipe and laid one in the bottom of the trench laid the pipe in the groves then put the other piece over the pipe staggering the joints so the top piece and the bottom end joints were in different places then puss nails along the edges to hold it together until it was buried been working great for over 6yrs now and saved him a bunch of money well there are a lot of different things I done with these for people even built my own outdoor wood forced air furnace using a double barrel stove works great but that's a story for another forum good luck have a warm winter
[/size]
[/i][/b]
John

beenthere

Boardcutter

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.
Good to have your experience on "board".

One favor.... as the long sentence is tough to read. Must not like the period and Cap key.  ;D
Just hit the "return" at the end of each thought and we can easily separate one thought from another.  Thanks.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Thank You Sponsors!