Log splitter pump. Converting 3 pt hitch to self contained.

[Piston]

After using my 3pt hitch log splitter for a few years now, I've decided I want the use of my tractor back when I'm splitting wood.  I have been looking at new splitters to buy and can't afford to buy the one I want at the moment.

So, I have been "toying" with the idea of converting my 3pt hitch model log splitter to a self contained unit.
I've done quite a bit of hydraulic work to my tractor so I'm fairly familiar with hydraulics (however, I'm no pro ;D) 


I have a good condition 18hp engine laying around that I have yet to find a use for.  I was thinking of using this for the splitter.  It came off a Husqvarna riding lawn mower (actually it's still IN the lawnmower) but the mower itself is so beat up that it isn't worth anything, it still runs, but my dad thinks it's a brush hog and has compeletly destroyed it, and since bought a new mower.  (he now uses my tractor and brush hog in place of the lawn mower-he's getting smart in his old age :D)

Anyways,
I could run a pretty good sized pump with that engine.  I was looking at two pumps from Surplus Center.  One is 22gpm and the other is 28gpm.  The question I have, is how do I find out if these pumps will work with my engine?  I assume I would need some sort of "adapter" or something to mate the pump to the bottom of the engine? 
Actually, I'm not positive if the shaft comes out the side, or bottom of the engine, but I assume bottom since it's on a riding lawn mower.

Does anyone have any advice for me?   
I know the cost of hoses/fittings/couplings/pump/tank/fluid etc really adds up, so I haven't figured yet if this would be worth it or not, but, I think I would have a pretty bada** splitter if it worked out. 

Here are the two I was looking at. 
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-7973&catname=hydraulic
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-7971&catname=hydraulic

Also, I already have a small axle/wheels that would work well for a small trailer. 

[thecfarm]

Advice?   Have an old ATV??? :D  :D      I will post your link so others will get the joke for years to come.

   https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,60912.0.html

I myself like a self contained,good word by the way,better. I can throw the wood into my loader and bring it up to the house. Just an idea,can you make it pivot too so you don't have to pick the big ones up? Or going to make a log loader?

[muddstopper]

Before deciding on which pump, ask yourself just how fast do you want the cylinder to extend and retract. Cylinder size and pump flow determine speed. My guess is if your cylinder has less than a 5inch bore, you probably dont want to go with the 28gpm pump. You might not even want the 22gpm pump using a 4in bore size cylinder. I use a 14gpm vane pump on my 4in bore, 2in shaft cylinder, and dont even run the engine at full throttle. This seems to produce just the right speed so that it will work me to death keeping it fed if I let it. Surplus Center also has the 16gpm 2stage pump and that might be closer to what you really need. Of course, what I think is to fast, might just suit you fine, and it is your choice.

What brand of engine do you have. It is possible that it could have more than one bolt pattern already cast into the engine housing. You will have to remove the engine from the lawnmower and look at the bottom to know for sure. My 25hp kholer had three different bolt paterns already casted into the engine block. Surplus Center sells several different kinds and sizes of aluminum adapters for both engine and pump bolt patterns. Whether or not the engine is horizonal or vertical shaft, the pump wont care as long as the pump and engine shafts line up. A factory pump mount is the easist way to accomplish proper alignment.

Since the 3pt splitter is still functioning, I think I can assume that the control valve is already there, as well as the pressure and return line and cylinder hoses. The control valve is another consideration when decideing on what size pump to purchase. The valve is going to be rated for a certain pump flow. The control valve you have may or not be able to handle the 22 or 28 gpm you are thinking about using. To small of a valve will create extra heat as it creates a bottleneck/restriction for the hydraulic flow, so even with a bigger pump, you might not see any real increase in speed, and it could also effect the operation of the 2stage pump if the bottleneck/restriction causes back pressure build up. Another potential restriction/bottle neck would be port size of the cylinder, These can somtimes be redrilled and tapped for larger hoses, but if the cylinder you have has the smaller 1/2in ports, you will probably be better off using a smaller pump and the hydraulic hoses you already have. New hoses and fitting can be as costly as buying the pump.

[Piston]

Advice?   Have an old ATV??? :D  :D      I will post your link so others will get the joke for years to come.

   https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,60912.0.html

:D  Actually, I could just buy that one http://guelph.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-home-outdoor-outdoor-tools-storage-Log-Splitter-on-Steriods-W0QQAdIdZ413193086
I bet there is a lot more than $5,500 worth of "stuff" on that thing!  The splitter alone is close to 5 grand.

Or going to make a log loader?

I would plan on making a log loader, however, I figure since I'll have the tractor, I'll just use it as the log loader.  I can go over to the pile of rounds, pick up a bucket full with the grapple, and drive over to the splitter keeping the grapple at waist height.  I'd try that first before building the log loader. 

Before deciding on which pump, ask yourself just how fast do you want the cylinder to extend and retract. Cylinder size and pump flow determine speed. My guess is if your cylinder has less than a 5inch bore, you probably dont want to go with the 28gpm pump. You might not even want the 22gpm pump using a 4in bore size cylinder. I use a 14gpm vane pump on my 4in bore, 2in shaft cylinder, and dont even run the engine at full throttle. This seems to produce just the right speed so that it will work me to death keeping it fed if I let it. Surplus Center also has the 16gpm 2stage pump and that might be closer to what you really need. Of course, what I think is to fast, might just suit you fine, and it is your choice.

I believe it's a 4" bore, but I'm not positive (and I'm not home to check  :()
I'd like to be able to run the engine at a bit less than full throttle, so I thought if I got a 22gpm pump, I'd be happy with something around 12-15gpm at less than full throttle.  However, would this also reduce the pressure the pump is putting out?
The engine is a Kawasaki if I remember correctly. 

Since the 3pt splitter is still functioning, I think I can assume that the control valve is already there, as well as the pressure and return line and cylinder hoses. The control valve is another consideration when decideing on what size pump to purchase. The valve is going to be rated for a certain pump flow. The control valve you have may or not be able to handle the 22 or 28 gpm you are thinking about using. To small of a valve will create extra heat as it creates a bottleneck/restriction for the hydraulic flow, so even with a bigger pump, you might not see any real increase in speed, and it could also effect the operation of the 2stage pump if the bottleneck/restriction causes back pressure build up. Another potential restriction/bottle neck would be port size of the cylinder, These can somtimes be redrilled and tapped for larger hoses, but if the cylinder you have has the smaller 1/2in ports, you will probably be better off using a smaller pump and the hydraulic hoses you already have. New hoses and fitting can be as costly as buying the pump.

Mudd,
This is a very helpful post. 

The valve and hoses are all still there and functioning.  However, they are old and beat up, the hoses should be replaced, and I was planning on getting a new stackable valve, that way I could add another spool for a log lift if I decided I wanted one.  After reading your post, I think the port size and cylinder size is going to be the determining factor.  I'll have to see what size they are. 

Out of all the pics I have, you'd think I'd at least have a few of my Dang splitter  >:(

[Hilltop366]

Sometimes I wonder the same thing with my tractor splitter and a 16 hp I have, that is as far as I got so I will be interested in the results.

One thing I was thinking about is if it was practical to run the engine at a slower speed and put a step up on the drive to keep the pump speed up to proper speed. It would have to be done without side loading the pump unless a pump was used that was designed for a belt drive.

[sawguy21]

 A couple of thoughts here. You would need to build a mount for the pump, it could easily be attached to the engine crankshaft with a lovejoy coupling. You could leave the engine mounted on the tractor, with some creative fabbing you could have a self propelled log splitter.  ;D That 18 hp with a 22gpm pump is huge overkill for most splitters. Your ram is likely four or five inch, all that extra capacity would be wasted.

[thecfarm]

Someone on here built a self propelled one. Had a seat on it too. Seem like they put a grapple on the back of a back hoe or a tractor. I usually bookmark great things like that,but I did not do it.

Found it. Made by Un Hooker

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,56449.msg818957.html#msg818957

[blackfoot griz]

Piston.

As others have stated, your existing valves and cylinder port sizes may limit the flow you can send through your existing system.

One option to consider would be to check and verify the flow ratings of the 2 stage pumps.  Just because the the 2 stage pumps are rated @ 3600 rpm doesn't mean you have to run the drive engine at 3600 rpm.

On the firewood processor I built, I used a Haldex 28 gpm 2 stage, but I only run the engine @ 2,400 rpm.  I don't recall the exact numbers, but @ 2,400 rpms, the haldex 28 gpm is only pushing something like 16-18 gpm which does not exceed the flow ratings for my valves & cylinder ports. (at the hydro shop, they verified the flow rate with a flow meter--I just don't recall the exact numbers)

If you do this, might be wise to limit the throttle on the drive engine--especially if you let others borrow it!

[muddstopper]

I believe it's a 4" bore, but I'm not positive (and I'm not home to check  )
I'd like to be able to run the engine at a bit less than full throttle, so I thought if I got a 22gpm pump, I'd be happy with something around 12-15gpm at less than full throttle.  However, would this also reduce the pressure the pump is putting out? The engine is a Kawasaki if I remember correctly.

The pressure shoudnt be effected by reducing the speed of the engine. While it will reduce flow which will slow down the cylinder and the amount of time it takes the pump to switch from high flow/low pressure to low flow/high pressure. You might also experience some engine bogging on a really tuff piece of wood, but that easy to cure, just rev it up. Still, with a 4inch cylinder your extend/retraction time should be pretty good and I doubt you will notice any real reduction in splitting power. With the 4inch cylinder, I think I would forget about the more expensive 28gpm pump and just go with the 22gpm. Also, I second the Throttle limiter, everybody now days seems to think everything has to run wide open throttle. WOT usually results in broken equipment or lost fingers.
JMO and others might have a different one.

[Piston]

  That 18 hp with a 22gpm pump is huge overkill for most splitters.

That sounds just about.....well....perfect!  Overkill is my middle name.  :D

Someone on here built a self propelled one. Had a seat on it too. Seem like they put a grapple on the back of a back hoe or a tractor. I usually bookmark great things like that,but I did not do it.

Found it. Made by Un Hooker

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,56449.msg818957.html#msg818957

NOW I remember that thread!  Ya that thing is awesome!  I have a good feeling mine would look a lot more "frankensteined" If I tried to make something like that  :D

Thanks for more info regarding port size/valve flow restrictions and confirming that the pressure should stay the same even at reduced engine RPM.

I will have to check the sizes of my cylinder and ports when I get home.  If it is the limiting factor then I may even go with the 16gpm.  However, I do like the idea of the larger pump but only running it at something like 12-15gpm and not running WOT as mentioned. 
I thought it was odd that the 22gpm pump was considerably more expensive than the 28gpm?  Maybe because the port sizes are larger on the 22gpm?  Or maybe just better quality? 

I did find a pic of my splitter, not that it really tells me much  :D

[sawguy21]

Be careful the engine does not overheat. It depends on the fan for cooling.

[Holmes]

Frankensteined ... Why not leave the engine on the mower, remove the mower deck, use the lower pulley to drive the new hydraulic pump, put wheels on the splitter and tow the unit with the lawn mower.  Then your dad can use it every where... Just trying to help ;D ;D

[thecfarm]

Better yet spread the riding mower apart and put your splitter in the middle of it.  :D You can sit on the I beam of the splitter and use the splitter part for a back rest.

[Piston]

Better yet spread the riding mower apart and put your splitter in the middle of it.  :D You can sit on the I beam of the splitter and use the splitter part for a back rest.

:D :D
Ya but where can I put the dump body?  ;D

[Holmes]

Appears we are looking in the wrong direction here.  I believe the proper procedure is to get another tractor just for the splitter.  Every piece of equipment should have its  own tractor... ;D ;D

[Al_Smith]

Lots of ideas which would probably work at least to some extent .

You have a 4 inch cylinder you certainly do not need a 28 or a 22 GPM pump .An 8 HP Briggs and an 11 or 13 GPM pump will run fast enough you won't be able to keep up with it unless you are super human .

Now a mower engine .Sure it would work but keep in mind they don't make a ready make a ready made pump mount adaptor you just bolt on a vertical shaft mower engine .You have to make it yourself  .That is unless there's one nobody is talking about and in that case I'd like to know myself .

Large vert shaft mower engines are easy to find because the engine will out last most mowers and you can buy the whole thing for a song .Horizontal shaft engines are not so easy to find .Now of course you can buy a new one but us junk yard dawgs just don't subscibe to that method . ;)

[muddstopper]

Al, I have seen a few vertical shaft engines that had the bolt circle for a pump adapter. Its usually inside the bolt circle that the engines uses for the mower mount. Sometimes the holes arent thread taped, but thats easy to remedy. I cant say for sure whether all vertical shaft engines have the extra bolt holes, but I know some do. Best I remember all the vertical shaft engines I saw with the bolt circle where the larger size engines. Of course, it isnt all that hard to fab something up that will work and the pedestal pump mounts are only about $30.

[Al_Smith]

Well I wish you'd find out who makes the things because I can't find them .I've looked several places ,Surplus center for one and another I can't mention  ;)

I've looked at vert shaft engine splitters at both Lowes and TSC and all I've ever seen was fabricated mounts which I agree aren't that big of a deal to make .

In the air is a project involving a 6 inch cylinder and a six way wedge super splitter which will indeed take a 22 or preferabley  28 GPM pump which can run off an 18 HP Briggs mower engine .

Of track perhaps but a point to ponder .When you get to talking say Briggs engines the designs have changed a tad over the years .Just today for example I installed a 1985 Briggs 8 HP horizontal to replace a 1992 model my buddy ran a rod through the side of the block from using the wrong governor spring .They aren't supposed to run at 4500-5000 rpms but they will ,just not long .

At any rate over the years the standard adaptor for an 8 HP wouldn't work because the bolt pattern had changed .The remedy was a 5 HP adaptor which worked with modifications .

[muddstopper]

Al, I got to looking yesterday and I couldnt find any engines that listed a pump mount either. I did run across another thread on another forum where someone claims to have one, but didnt give the make or model. He did say only the later engines had the extra mount. To me it would really be a mute point anyway. I would simply take a piece of 1/4in plate and drill the bolt circle for the engine and the bolt circle for the pump mount, bolt it to the vertical shaft engine, bolt the pump mount to the plate and bolt the pump to that. Done deal. I think the standard mower mount is a 10.5 in bolt circle and the pump adapter is 6.5 for large engines and only 3.675 for the small 5hp size engines. Drill the holes to these dimensions and everything should line up.

Have you figured the cycle times for the 6in bore cylinder with the 22 or 28 gpm pumps.

[reride82]

I like the idea of leaving the engine in the mower and adding the pump where the deck was. Just have a mobile hydraulic power pack ;) This way you could use it to power all sorts of hydraulic things. Maybe hydraulics for the mill, shop crane, splitter, and who knows what else. Just drive it from place to place. How big of a hydraulic resevoir will you use?

[Al_Smith]

Good question .I have about 8 gallons of Dextron in my homebuilt with a 16 GPM pump .

Speed aprox. on a 6 inch cylinder is 179 " per minute with a 22 GPM pump and 228" with a 28 GPM .So you could approximate about what 30" would be give or take .It figures out to be about 42 ton at 3,000 PSI although I doubt the relief would be set that high .

Now that brings up an interesting point .On most splitters unless they use a small cylinder or you hit a big nasty knot they very seldom shift into to high pressure low volume .Watch them some time .

[muddstopper]

I'm just thinking outloud here. With the 6in cylinder and 28gpm pump, that would give you around a 10sec extention time (36in) and probably close to twice that fast for retraction, depending on the size of the rod. I dont know if I can throw a stick of wood into the splitter every 15 seconds.  :

[Al_Smith]

On that it's not being made for a "stick " of wood but rather 36" and larger rounds .It's a speciality thing being dreamed up by myself and a tree trimmer buddy who gets massively large oak rounds in the course of his business .I've seen some upwards of 48"

Back to the subject though .It would be easy enough to construct a mobile hydraulic unit that could be used both on this splitter plus any thing else that needs hydraulic power .Using  quick connect hydraulic couplers it could still be used on the tractor for that matter .Fact you could mount the whole kit and cabootle on a little trailer or something .Lay the three point splitter right on the ground and have at it .

[thecfarm]

Some guy at work was going to make a portable hyd motor,with quick disconnects as Al mentioned. He was going to use it with a power washer too. I have no idea if he did or not. But he could make just about anything work with hyd power at work.

[Al_Smith]

There was a guy on another site that made one with a portable electric hydraulics unit .Looked crude as a fence post and had a double detent valve but it worked. I often wondered  if he chopped off one of his arms with that thing .

Man killer if I ever saw one .Had a rod or bungy cord that once the cylinder bottomed out on extension the thing would auto cycle to retracted .Scared me and I'm fearless .