Advice on sawing these cherry logs

[Slingshot]

  I have these logs from a leaning cherry tree. Wondering if I can get some decent
lumber from them and what would be the best way to saw them. The pith is quite
a bit off center.



 



 


________________________
Charles 

[Okrafarmer]

 
Heilige Kuh, Slingshot, those are some purty logs! How big are they?

I love cherry, but am not an expert on it by any means, the stresses and so on confuse me.

The answers to your questions will crystallize better if we know what you would like to make out of these logs. My thought would be to mill them parallell to the stress lines, so that your flitches curve like a rainbow, but are flat the skinny way. (If that makes sense). 'Nother words, I would make it so that after it's done with its delingquent gyrations, you could lay the board flatwise on a flat surface, and it would lie down flat all over, even though it was curved from end to end.

My understanding of how to do that, is to identify which way the tree was leaning, and then mill it parallel to the direction it was leaning. That can usually be determined by looking at where the off-center heart is on the end of the log, marking a dot where the edge of the circle is at the closest point to the center of the heart, then drawing a straight line across the end of the log, lining up your dot you made on the edge, with the first-year growth ring at the middle of the heartwood, and continuing across to the opposite side. Then mill parallel to that line.

Now, that is how I understand it, and how I would try it, unless someone told me any better. Someone more experienced may correct me if I'm wrong.

I'll also point out, that my understanding is, that what I described above only works well if the tree was a STRAIGHT tree leaning in one direction. If your tree was curvy, twisted, bent, etc, then all bets are off. Which describes most of the cherry trees that grow in my neck of the woods.  :-\

[drobertson]

slingshot, I cut all of my logs parallel to the sweep.  When the boards are stripped and stack with weight they should lay flat. the other boards will be edged and most of the stress will be removed and they will remain straight and flat. Just how I do it. 

[Okrafarmer]

 :P There. He said it a lot more succinctly than I did. 

[Slingshot]

 Thanks for the replies. I think both answers point to the same way to cut. I've sawed logs from
leaning poplar that didn't really matter the outcome but wasn't sure just how to get the flattest
boards from these. I'm planning some wide boards for blanket chests and cabinets, etc.
   Probably sell some if it turns out pretty good.
    The logs are all about 20 inches inside the bark. I picked them up from a guy that cuts firewood
They were given to him, cut from a wooded lot being cleared for a house. There are 3 logs just under
8 feet and 1 that is 5 feet. He let me have them for the price he gets for a rick of firewood. 40 bucks.
I don't really need to buy cherry because I have several large cherry trees on my property that I
can cut but thought this was worth a doing. I'll be sawing one soon.


______________________
Charles,

[Okrafarmer]

At that price, darn tootin. It would have been criminal to let that get burned up. It should make some great benches, tables, chests, cabinets, whatever you have in mind. That's much nicer and much bigger cherry than I usually get to have around here.

[Okrafarmer]

Did you paint the ends yet? Better do that pronto if you're not going to mill them right away.

[Slingshot]

I haven't painted the ends but I will seal them right away. The tree was cut about a month ago
so I'll seal what I don't saw this next week.
Thanks for all.

________________________
Charles

[Magicman]

If I am following the above sawing advice, I would be very hesitant because Black Cherry is notorious for having heart check.  If you do not saw parallel to that check, almost always from the hump or horn sides, every board will split along this heart check line.  The heart check is visible in the lower left in the last picture posted above,


 
Sawing through parallel to the heart check.


 
The heart check is contained within only a couple of boards.
 

[drobertson]

Lynn is correct in this, and I follow his method as well, at times,  I just have found for straighter boards that require less stress trimming, I like to saw parallel to the sweep, it seems like a give and take on each log, and each log should be evaulated. Most of the time the pith is going to be sawed out when I finish edge, leaving some decent q-swn boards, the rot and other defects will end up in the slab rack.  Just my way of doing, and I still have much to learn,  Those cherries are looking sweat, and I would have gave 40 without a thought.

[Slingshot]

  I'm going to saw the short log tomorrow. It has the most off-center pith.
I'll make some pictures of the boards and what i find.
I didn't ask if all the logs came from one tree but I think they probably did
from the looks of the ends.
Thanks for the advise.


___________________________
Charles

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I wish we had BIG Cherry trees in this part of the country. 

[Okrafarmer]

I'm supposed to be getting a decently big one pretty soon, I hope. At least 24" which will be by far the largest cherry I've ever done. It isn't in the bag yet, though, so I ought not to "boast of tomorrow."

[shelbycharger400]

Cherry here spalts out in about 4 months.
Like magic said. Pay attention to what the log tells you.  I did an oak log that was similar to that. It might have been more from the log sitting here for over a year or 2  but some pieces of it cracked at both ends.  Now, If your lucky, these are red oak

  

 
As you can see I sawed through the pith, It is 2 1/4 thick, 3 feet long and dried fairly straight. It was on the top of the stack, but this was down. Im not shure what it is but the board is more pinkish red, whereas the 2 boards below it are definately brownish, it dosnt show up in the photo tho. This one should have been sawn down the center but was missed.   Also to note, when centering the pith, splitting the center board seems to have worked out well for me in a high percentage of the time. The 2nd photo is a centered 2 1/4 thick, split down the center.

Now due to only hobby sawing for me, This is what I do.
Lay out all boards cut. Soak both sides with the hose, debark and such.  prop them up on one side and let dry for a day, next flip, day passes, flip. IF it has been really dry and warm I spray them again. I sticker after about a week or so when they dont feel wet to the touch, somewhere in that 20 -25 percent mosture.

The stack contains enough for 3 tressle tables, Character to pieces for the legs and feet should work out well.

[Sawdust Lover]

I'm going with what MM said. I would also cut it into 8/4 stock. But I haven't cut a million bf yet either.

[Okrafarmer]

It partly depends on your desired uses for the lumber. All else being equal, and if the log is straight and unstressed, you should definitely saw with end-split. But if it is stressed, that means you have to start making decisions based on what you want out of it. Whether it's more important that it doesn't split, or more important that it doesn't warp.

[drobertson]

Nice pic, and not having a scale it is hard to say how much waste is there. the pith would be cut out with minamal clean up and there is some nice boards.  Most big logs have a split, and more have ants. this is what I have seen. It is just a bit of work, but lots of good, pretty lumber.  Many ways to skin a cat, they say,   I like straight boards. The straighter off the mill, the less waste on the finish board after drying.  Provided no knots are present.  Meaning Knots that are big enough to have a cause and effect.  The inside of any log, 3X3 or so will always be trashy, unless it is  pine, even then, bigger you go, the more risk for splits.

[Magicman]

Sawing down from the hump or horns will yield lumber that will tend to bow.  Lumber sawed from the flat sides will tend to crook.

Everyone is really saying the same thing; "read the log and saw it according to the lumber that you wish to produce".

Since I am not sawing lumber to sell, my option is always to produce the maximum bf of usable lumber for the customer.  Sawing parallel to the pith check produces this maximum.  Usually even the pith check board as shown above will have a good side.  That one did.

[WDH]

Cherry is one of the worst species that I have sawn in terms of the boards, with or near the pith, cracking and checking. 

[Magicman]

But the reward is worth the effort.


 
This pattern was throughout the entire log. 

[grweldon]

Since I'm really new to this, I want to ask for clarification to what I've read in the previous posts...

When y'all say sawing parallel to the sweep (pith), you are saying that the pith will run as close as parallel to the horizontal plane of the bed of the mill when through sawing the resulting cant?  I wish I could include a simple sketch to show what I'm asking.  In other words, when you first put the log on the deck the log will tend to be away from the stops on the ends and touch the stops in the middle (if it's severely bowed)?  Please forgive my ignorance, but I'm trying to become less ignorant!

[Magicman]

In other words, when you first put the log on the deck the log will tend to be away from the stops on the ends and touch the stops in the middle 

In my view, if you sawed through with the log or cant in the position that you described, you would be sawing parallel to the sweep.  Lumber sawed that way would tend to lay flat, but would also tend to crook.

Sometimes we/I get twisted up with terminology that may not be correct or easily understood by others.  I just know how I would set the log up to get the maximum yield.

[grweldon]

Thank you MM for the clarification.  I'm so new to all this that I wouldn't know the correct terminology anyway.  I got it now!

[Okrafarmer]

What MM said is what I was trying to say. And most times, most cases, I would prefer hardwood lumber to crook rather than to bow, warp, or twist. There may be cases where bowing would be preferable, but not most of my scenarios. Especially for cherry.

[Magicman]

Since a Cherry log with sweep most always has the pith check perpendicular to the sweep, I most always saw through from either the hump or horn faces.  My customers are looking for the maximum number of wide boards.  Properly stickered, the bow will be minimized when dried.

We are talking Cherry, but the same thing holds true for SYP, you just do not have pith check.

[grweldon]

OK, now I'M confused again...  I think it's important for me to understand this...

For the sake of this disussion, let's assume the cherry log is a banana.  If the banana is laying down on the saw as it would on a countertop, with the hump pointed towards the stops, the way I am envisioning this, the pith would run basically parallel with the saw bed along it's length.... right?

This would mean that if you sawed through with the hump up (turned 90 degrees from the orientation above), each board may contain a portion of the pith check... am I understand this correctly?

I thought I understood things until you threw in the comment "Since a Cherry log with sweep most always has the pith check perpendicular to the sweep..."  If I'm understanding correctly, perpendicular to the pith (or more accurately "normal" to the pith) means that the pith would follow the arc of the banana (log) and be contained in many boards... Somehow this doesn't seem right so I must be misunderstanding...  Please help me!

[Slingshot]

   Milled the short cherry today.  Pictures and short video;



 



 



 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5lbiwPvDio&feature=youtube_gdata




_____________________________
Charles 

[mikeb1079]

 

beautiful!

Cherry is one of the worst species that I have sawn in terms of the boards, with or near the pith, cracking and checking.

ill definitely second this.  black cherry was the first lumber i milled with my chainsaw mill.  i carefully stickered and stacked the boards, then returned a month or so later and was bummed by the splits i saw.  thought i was doing something wrong (well in a way i was), but later learned about the nature of black cherry.

For the sake of this disussion, let's assume the cherry log is a banana.  If the banana is laying down on the saw as it would on a countertop, with the hump pointed towards the stops, the way I am envisioning this, the pith would run basically parallel with the saw bed along it's length.... right?

what may be throwing you off is terminology here.  as far as i know there's the pith (center of log) and pith or heart check which is just cracking or splitting in the center of the log.

This would mean that if you sawed through with the hump up (turned 90 degrees from the orientation above), each board may contain a portion of the pith check... am I understand this correctly?

other way around.  what mm is saying is that the heart (pith) check is running perp to the sweep.  thus if the sweep is pointing up the heart check is level, this is what mm is showing in the first pic of his first post.  in that photo the "horns" of your banana would be pointing up.  what you want to do in most cases is contain this check in one or two boards.  if you look at his picture you can see the heart check is level (relatively) and will be contained in the center boards instead of running thru almost the whole log.

[WDH]

Which ever way you go, containing the pith in as few boards as possible will result in lumber with fewer splits and checks.  The pith in cherry cracks.

Slingshot, do you edge your wide boards or leave them live edge?

[Sawdust Lover]

MM, you say you only saw for customers. How can you walk away from a cherry log like that? That was some pretty wood.

[mikeb1079]

How can you walk away from a cherry log like that?

his customers give him money to walk away.   :D

seriously though...i agree!  if i'd a sawn that i'd a wanted that.   

[Slingshot]

WDH;   I usually edge the boards but am going to let these dry for awhile and then edge them
according to what I use them for. Plans for these are to make a couple blanket chests for my
two daughters.


______________-

[WDH]

That is awesome!  Sawing them live like that maximizes the width for sure.  I have to tell you, that is some really clear, beautiful wood.  I like your style  ;D.

[grweldon]

My first exposure to a real-live sawmill was a guy near me who was sawing a few small diameter cherry logs.  They were beautiful, just like the ones shown in this photo.

As far as terms describing the method of sawing sweep, I guess when I actually get a log like that on the mill I'm armed with enough info to do it correctly.  I'll be doing it in the near future with Pecan.

[Okrafarmer]

As far as terms describing the method of sawing sweep, I guess when I actually get a log like that on the mill I'm armed with enough info to do it correctly.  I'll be doing it in the near future with Pecan.

smiley_deadheader alligator
:D :D :D :D
Pecan = 

[WDH]

Pecan = 

:D  :D

[grweldon]

OK guys... I get it.  BUT, about a quarter of all the lumber I've cut so far with my mill has been pecan.  I've got a bit of experience and it IS the  !  But I'm sure it will be OK!  I'm better prepared now that I've got a few hundred board feet under my belt!

[WDH]

If you can cut your teeth on pecan (remember pecan =    :D)), then you will be just fine  ;D.

[Okrafarmer]

If you can cut your teeth on pecan (remember pecan =    :D)), then you will be just fine  ;D.

GRW, you need a more creative user name. From now on, to me, you will be

Pecan Slayer

[Magicman]

Better him than me.  I saw what the customer has, but Pecan is one of my least favorite. 

[MotorSeven]

I have to admit, I sawed up a cherry that a tornado knocked down about a mile from the house. I didn't pay much attention to the pith or check and stickered them in a shed for 3 years, then into the solar kiln for 2 months. I am almost finished building my kitchen cabinets out of them I think there were 3 boards that had had heart check out of about 30. On all 3 I was able to get planks off either side of the checking, so there was very little waste. It's nice to get lucky, next time I will pay closer attention to it.

[grweldon]

GRW, you need a more creative user name. From now on, to me, you will be
Pecan Slayer

I like that, but if I change my username to that, people will think I know what I'm doing!

Still.. you are right... I need something more creative... I think I'll ask jeff to change it!

[grweldon]

Better him than me.  I saw what the customer has, but Pecan is one of my least favorite.

If you are talking about the photos I posted when I first started, yes, I have more like that... BUT... I am the customer.  The wood has been given to me free of charge.  I pulled one of the scrap pecan boards off the top of the pile (using it to help shed water) and squared and planed a small sample (all that was left after the twist and bow was cut out) and the grain was beautiful and it even had a bit of figure to it...  Hold on... I think I have a piece in my car... I'll go get it and post a pic...

Here we go...



The small pieces on top have been surfaced 4 sides.  These were reject boards that were never stickered and have been exposed to the weather since June.  I think that is why they are the color they are.  The board underneath is from the same tree, possibly even the same log.  That board has never been stickered either, rather I have had it in my office at work for the same timeframe.  I certaninly love the golden color it has become, but I would imagine it will not remain after the board is fully dry and surfaced.  I haven't checked MC on the golden board, but the other pieces are still right around 20%...  It's not spectacular looking, but the picture doesn't really allow the details to show up well...

In any case, I think it will make some attractive flooring several years down the road!

[drobertson]

I have found out that no matter how creative we get with trying to orient the log, there will always be a surprise, we can thank murphey's law for this,  If anyone decides to cut a log all the way through, then one should figure on cutting out the center pith after drying. And this can be said about the outer edge as well.  Rockler makes a nice little fixture to clamp crooked boards to a straight board just for trimming the crook out.  I have made many of these for friends and they should be in every woodworkers toolbox.  david

[Okrafarmer]

drobertson, can you show us a picture of how that works?

[drobertson]

You bet, let me dig out the stuff, and of course go buy some batteries for the camera, I even tried my radio head phone bat's, not enough juice,   I guess you mean clamping a crooked board to a straight one and trimming the crook out?

[WDH]

I have seen a jig to do that that is sold by Rockler.  Another method is to draw a straight line on the edge of the curved and crooked board and saw that straight edge on the bandsaw.  Then, you can use that relatively straight edge to run against the fence to rip the other edge, then flip and true up the first edge.

[drobertson]

Yea, that's the way most of the carpenters do it out here with their worm gear skill saw,  they snap a chalk line and let er' rip,, they are heavy saws, but they sure cut,  I usually load them on the mill and just fuzz cut the crook, flip and fuzz the belly.   

[Ga Mtn Man]

Better him than me.  I saw what the customer has, but Pecan is one of my least favorite.

If you are talking about the photos I posted when I first started, yes, I have more like that... BUT... I am the customer.  The wood has been given to me free of charge.  I pulled one of the scrap pecan boards off the top of the pile (using it to help shed water) and squared and planed a small sample (all that was left after the twist and bow was cut out) and the grain was beautiful and it even had a bit of figure to it...  Hold on... I think I have a piece in my car... I'll go get it and post a pic...

Here we go...



The small pieces on top have been surfaced 4 sides.  These were reject boards that were never stickered and have been exposed to the weather since June.  I think that is why they are the color they are.  The board underneath is from the same tree, possibly even the same log.  That board has never been stickered either, rather I have had it in my office at work for the same timeframe.  I certaninly love the golden color it has become, but I would imagine it will not remain after the board is fully dry and surfaced.  I haven't checked MC on the golden board, but the other pieces are still right around 20%...  It's not spectacular looking, but the picture doesn't really allow the details to show up well...

In any case, I think it will make some attractive flooring several years down the road!

gr, he meant "saw" as in cut, not "saw" as in see.   But it is good to see what your pecan is looking like as I have some I'm going to be sawing in the near future.

[Okrafarmer]

me too, and it's narly.  >:(

[Slingshot]

    Pecan makes some nice furniture. Here is a coffee table made of pecan from a set we bought
over 40 years ago. Still looks good.



 



_______________________________

[Magicman]

As a general rule, Pecan works very well for furniture building as long as the lumber came from the mature part of the log and you avoid knots, crotches, etc.  I built a Pecan bedroom suit for our Son that is now 30 years old.