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Losses when quarter sawing

Started by WoodenHead, September 28, 2012, 07:37:47 PM

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WoodenHead

I was quarter sawing a log today and was wondering how much material I lost compared to flat sawing or compared to how the log was scaled (using International log rule).  Would anyone know the typical percentage?

Dan_Shade

this is a loaded question, it partially depends on the diameter of the log.

I don't feel that it is wasteful on a log over 22", the parts i lose out of the middle and edges are low grade sections of the log or mostly sapwood.

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Migal

Quarter sawn wood is much more stable then plain sawn so the loss's are a Loaded Question untill the finale use is established for the wood being sawn 8)
Stihl learning and picked up my Log Master LM2 Cat 34hp 02 21 12! 230MF+ the toys that go with it! MS361 MS271 Stihl PB500 Echo 48" LogRite 16ft Bass Tracker Pro' Abua Garcia 5600 bait caster, Wood working equipment' Lake Lot never enough time! oh don't forget the fridge with ale! Loving Wife Rebeca

Dan_Shade

sometimes quartersawn boards will crook and twist while drying.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Migal

 :) There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.  8)
Stihl learning and picked up my Log Master LM2 Cat 34hp 02 21 12! 230MF+ the toys that go with it! MS361 MS271 Stihl PB500 Echo 48" LogRite 16ft Bass Tracker Pro' Abua Garcia 5600 bait caster, Wood working equipment' Lake Lot never enough time! oh don't forget the fridge with ale! Loving Wife Rebeca

beenthere

newbee

Much of the recovery factor will lie in just how you do the quarter sawing, as well as what you classify as being "quarter-sawn". 

Can you tell us the answer to both?  Might then be able to narrow it down some for you.

You should expect to meet or exceed the scale of the Int'l rule in bd. ft. sawn flat.
Measure up the footage of the quarter sawn that you recovered and make your comparison that way.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Of all the White Oak and Red Oak that I've quarter sawn that comes off my Dad's farm, none of it has never warped or twisted. I try to pick good straight trees that show they have not been fighting gravity.

I have quarter sawn Oak for customers that say they have had a few boards warp or twist. And they usually tell me the tree came off a bank or hill and had a little lean to it.

As far as the waste, you should get a few plain sawn boards off each side. And I know, these boards will have a lot of sap wood on them in some cases.

But when I sell my quarter sawn lumber and use the waste for fire wood......I have won the lottery.  8)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

Migal

 :D .I have won the lottery  8) I like winning the Lottery but heard you have to buy ticket's LOL
Stihl learning and picked up my Log Master LM2 Cat 34hp 02 21 12! 230MF+ the toys that go with it! MS361 MS271 Stihl PB500 Echo 48" LogRite 16ft Bass Tracker Pro' Abua Garcia 5600 bait caster, Wood working equipment' Lake Lot never enough time! oh don't forget the fridge with ale! Loving Wife Rebeca

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: Migal on September 28, 2012, 08:31:02 PM
:D .I have won the lottery  8) I like winning the Lottery but heard you have to buy ticket's LOL

Not when they grow on the farm.  smiley_thumbsup
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

WDH

Customsawyer and I have quarter sawn a number of very big logs.  I do not have any measured data, but I would estimate the losses from quartersawing versus flat sawing those same logs at about 15%.  The extra loss comes mainly from having to run more boards thru the edger because the octagonal technique leaves angled/beveled edges on some of the boards that have to be edged to create a square edge, at least on one side.  Customers do not like angled edges on both sides of the board.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

beenthere

Quotenone of it has never warped or twisted

say_what

Meaning no warp, or it all warped?

Normally quarter sawn boards will have crook just from the growth stresses in the tree. Nature of the beast.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: beenthere on September 28, 2012, 08:44:01 PM
Quotenone of it has never warped or twisted

say_what

Meaning no warp, or it all warped?

Sorry, I used a double negative. " None of my Quarter Sawn lumber that came off my farm has ever warped or twisted. :)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

WDH

The "C" crook that beenthere mentioned is common when one side of a board is near the pith.  Ultimately, that is another source of loss, but after drying.  It can be avoided somewhat by leaving the pith in the center of the widest boards from the middle of the log, and cutting out the low grade pith wood after the boards have dried.  But, you cannot eliminate 100% of it.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

scsmith42

Quote from: WDH on September 28, 2012, 08:54:10 PM
The "C" crook that beenthere mentioned is common when one side of a board is near the pith.  Ultimately, that is another source of loss, but after drying.  It can be avoided somewhat by leaving the pith in the center of the widest boards from the middle of the log, and cutting out the low grade pith wood after the boards have dried.  But, you cannot eliminate 100% of it.

+1.  I have literally hundreds of straight QS boards in inventory; the difference is that I usually omit the first 15 years or so of growth rings from them when I'm milling (using a swing blade mill it's easy to achieve this).

There are still some that crook - even w/o the juvenile wood, but my experience has been much less crook than what others typically see.

I think that if I were quartering a log with a band mill, there would be more crook in the boards.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Jim H

I did a lot of quartersawing last winter and found that I came out pretty close to international scale (no overrun). These were all 18"- 30" on the small end and the customer wanted a minimum of 6" wide. Most of it bowed sideways, so I cut the cants a little large and trimmed them on both sides. I don't know if they have moved any more since then.
2008 LT40HDG28, autoclutch, debarker, stihl 026, 046, ms460 bow, 066, JD 2350 4wd w/245 loader, sawing since '94 fulltime since '98

WDH

Scott,

Do you leave the first 15 years as a square cant/timber?  If so, do they split and check  bad?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

I would agree with 15% less if you do nearly perfect quarter sawing...rings are 80 to 90 degrees to the face.  It is important, as previously stated to remove the first 15 years of growth from the center as this wood shrinks lengthwise, causing side bend (also called crook) when drying.  This center section also has many knots, so removing it will increase the grade of the remaining piece.  This center section in softwoods will frequently have compression wood and steep SOG, reducing strength tremendously, as well as having lots of warp.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

scsmith42

Quote from: WDH on September 28, 2012, 09:22:21 PM
Scott,

Do you leave the first 15 years as a square cant/timber?  If so, do they split and check  bad?

Danny, when I'm milling oak beams I usually box the heart and leave the juvenile wood in it, and yes it tends to split but end sealer will reduce this tendency somewhat.  It's funny how some cants are worse than others; I'll have to study some older ones to see if there is any correlation between the width of the juvenile wood rings and the amount of splitting.

If I can't box the heart, then I'll omit the juvenile wood from the cant.  I rarely experience splitting with the cants that don't have juvenile wood in them (unless the splits had already started before milling).

The juvenile wood seems to be anywhere between 5 to 15 years of the first growth rings.  Sometimes you can only omit 7 growth rings or thereabouts and it will still be ok (not crook).

Gene - thanks for jumping in.  You used a term that I'm not familiar with; what is SOG? (nevermind - I just found your description of Slope of Grain on the thread about full taper milling.  That's an interesting aspect regarding strength versus SOG, and it makes sense. Thx.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

WoodenHead

Thanks for the excellent responses.  It was a loaded question and there are a number of variables.   

Here's another loaded follow up question:  What is the smallest diameter log you would consider quarter sawing?

scsmith42

With oak, usually 20". Even with a log that size, I'll only yield 7" wide boards at best (w/o juvenile or sapwood).
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

kelLOGg

Quote from: Dan_Shade on September 28, 2012, 07:54:12 PM
I don't feel that it is wasteful on a log over 22", the parts i lose out of the middle and edges are low grade sections of the log or mostly sapwood.

It seems that most sawyers avoid sapwood in QS oak but I have seen interesting patterns in it as well as the heartwood so I have little to no objections to including it. This applies mostly to RO because I saw more of it then WO.

Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

WDH

I agree with Scott on the 20" diameter.  Biggest is best.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

shelbycharger400

This has been my learning year as in april I finially got my mill running.
I did a 12 dia oak once, 3 foot long,   it wasnt worth it, and it didnt have very many rays either.  It was a very low grade log,  most of it went into firewood.
I just plain saw everything on my slabber now within an inch to the pith, pop it off, throw on a shim board on the bunks at 2 in thick, flip over the log and reclamp. recut rest of log.    I saw  most of my 12 to 15 in dia logs yeild 3 to 7 boards at 1 inch thick.
The last one on the bunks that contains the pith, I reclamp upright at 90 deg to, and split it through the center.  I have only done a few that way, and they seem relitively stable with little to no warp.

drobertson

Not sure of the difference between total footage on flat sawn and q-sawn, but if one wants q-sawn lumber, then there is only so much of it in any given log.  There are many different techniques on q-sawing, and what are the allowable tolerances on true q-sawn you are looking for.  If done on a band mill, I believe you can save some flat sawn getting to the point where you start the process of q-sawing.  I know when you whack the section to be q-sawn, stress will begin, and at some point have to be delt with, I prefer to take it out the stress on the mill. Cut the boards, then trim the curve, (min) clean up and strip and wait. Not all boards will curve, some will. Allot of rift sawn lumber has the rays and fleck as does q-sawn, If this is what is desired, It is trial and error at best. there will always be wast, unless you sell finished stock, then you should get a premium price.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

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