Help me in the home stretch

[GDinMaine]

I have been reading this forum for the better part of two years and finally made up my mind that I'm ready to get into milling.  This adventure in my life is a major step toward a change of lifestyle that will lead - in no more then two years - to become a job. 

I know I will not be rich milling lumber, but I would get to keep my scenity and would like going to "work". I absolutely love working outside and hard work does not scare me the least.  I have been talking with and helping out a sawyer who is very helpful with advice and in general a super guy.  So.  I know what I'm getting into. Or at least I have a vague picture of it.  I'm now ready get a mill for myself and SLOWLY start up my own adventure.  I have an LT-40HD in mind as a minimum to get my hands on, but the options are many.  I know that he 40 would be ideal in starting out, and I did price out the new one. However.  The kind of $ that would cost could get me into a much nicer "seat" if I considered used mills.  As you all know there are Super HD and LT-50 and LT-70 mills are also available in the 25-30K price range, some with very few hours.  Would it be wasted $ to get a "bigger" mill? (40 super,50 or 70) 
Would the extra options be worth pawing for?
The following add-ons can make the "bigger" mills way more expensive.  (accuset, command control, big diesel, faster hydraulics)  Are they really worth the extra money if any or all are included with a mill?

My experience is with an older LT-40 SuperHD and it is a great machine.  Wile I'm mechanically inclined and don't mind turning a wrench I have no time to get a very used mill and fix that to get going. Besides.  Sometimes the extra parts and time it takes to get something properly going will put the item in a new price range.

Please any and all advice would be MUCH appreciated.

ps:I know I'm crazy...

[Magicman]

I turned down an opportunity to get a low hours LT70 a few years ago.  I could have made the move for $10K, but in my sawing situation, it would not have increased my sawing speed or opportunity because of the additional help and support equipment needed to realize the full capability of the LT70.  I am very pleased with the LT40 SH which I bought used.

[dgdrls]

GD,

I would be certain to I.D. the market(s) and find-out what you should be sawing to make some $$, and where there are opportunities.
How do you envision your operation 1 man 2 man? more??

Once you decide those factors, then search for a mill to fit those parameters, and as stated here many times bigger is usually better.
I'll caveat that with "to a point"  as MM mentioned.

Check the Sawmill exchange http://www.sawmill-exchange.com/
Sawmiil trader  http://www.sawmilltrader.com/

Best
DGDrls

[Jim_Rogers]

Personally most of the time I work here in my sawmill yard, I work alone.

If I had a mill that could produce more lumber, I'd have to ask myself, "do you want to carry off more lumber, slabs, and edgings?".....

Right now, I'd say no, I don't want to carry off more per day then I already do.

As mentioned, if you're going to have a helper then he's going to carry off the lumber, slabs and edgings for you and you maybe able to mill more with a larger fancier mill.

If you are familiar with a LT 40HD already, imagine how it would be if you were doing it yourself.

Can you do it all alone or will you need help?

Keep reading and keep asking questions.

Jim Rogers

[thecfarm]

At least you have someone in person to ask questions and be around a mill. I supose you know there will be a woods expo in Bangor the first of May next year. WM will be up there with a few mills to look at. Ross the WM dealer,is on the other end of Chesterville from me.

[Magicman]

When I bought my sawmill in 2002, I did not have a computer and had no idea that there was such a thing as a Forestry Forum.  You guys are so fortunate in today's world.   

[barbender]

It's definitely nice to be able to jump on here and get advice from folks with real world experience, Magic ;)

[Brucer]

The following add-ons can make the "bigger" mills way more expensive.  (accuset, command control, big diesel, faster hydraulics)  Are they really worth the extra money if any or all are included with a mill?

Personal obervations:

Accuset -- I don't need it 'cause I can do the math in my head and I'm mainly sawing big timbers. If I were sawing mostly dimension lumber I would probably want it.

Command control -- No need for it when I started. It would be useful with my present stationary setup but it won't work with the 12' of extension I have on my mill.

Diesel -- I have the 28HP gas engine. Knowing what I do now, I would rather have a diesel. The torque characteristics on a diesel are better for sawing. Fewer wavy cuts. Even a diesel in the 30-35 HP range would be an improvement.

Faster hydraulics -- it depends. I'd like them, but working alone in a stationary operation they wouldn't make much difference to my production. They would certainly speed things up if you were doing mobile sawing where you had helpers to move stuff away from the mill.

Other stuff.

Debarker -- absolutely a must.

Autoclutch -- I added my own after a year and a half. I could foresee shoulder problems on the horizon and it's one of the best upgrades I made. At your age this might not be an issue. Just remember to put one one when your shoulder is still aching the next morning  :D.

Dragback -- this works for me on my type of stationary operation. Other people don't like it. There's no powered dragback option for the LT40 but I was able to pick up a barely used one that was removed from a Super. On the other hand, Magicman removed the one from his Super.

Fine Adjust Outriggers -- If I were still doing mobile work, I'd want a full set. As it is, I just added the front and back ones so I could fine-tune my bed alignment in the spring when the ground is soft.

... I have no time to get a very used mill and fix that to get going. Besides.  Sometimes the extra parts and time it takes to get something properly going will put the item in a new price range.

The couple that bought my first mill from me got a fantastic deal. That's because I am very particular about keeping the machine in top condition. You need to look under the hood -- very carefully. There are good machines out there and there is junk.

If you are working alone, buying your own logs, staging them yourself, handling all the lumber, etc., then you will spend more time doing "other stuff" then you will sawing. Getting a faster machine  means you'll be sawing more wood per hour, but you'll be sawing fewer hours because you'll have extra wood to handle  :.

If you have regular helpers or you're sawing mobile, a faster machine will give you much more production and run your helpers ragged as well :D.

[GDinMaine]

Thank you for the responses.  I will be doing this as a one-man-band for the most part.  The comments about higher production is only possible when extra manpower is present are great pointers.  I will try to imagine operating by myself, the next time I go sawing with my friend. He is a huge help for sure! He did tell me that it is significantly more time to produce the same pile of lumber when he is working alone and most of the time he is alone. 
I'm a big fan of keeping machines simple, so less things can break and even then they are easier to fix.  The presence of a computer in a mill adds a level of problem sources that I'm not entirely comfortable with, but I also don't know anything about them. 
About finding customers and markets.  For now I will have no more then 4-6 days to saw per month. I think I would be able to do that already (as far as work) if I were a proficient operator.   My intention is to get a mill and spend time getting used to it before I offer my work for a fee.  Even then, I would rather not overbook with work because if I run into some time issue it pushes the next job back by two or three weeks instead of a two or three days.   I want to be careful not to build up a bad reputation in any aspect as word travels fast. 
TheCFarm, I went and talked to Ross.  He was very helpful and answered all my questions and then some.

[Kansas]

We run both the 40 and the 70. Here to me are some of the differences.

Turner. The 70 turner is vastly superior to the 40 turner. Someone with experience and talent can use the turner and two plane clamp to turn about anything on the 40. The chain one on the 70 is much easier to use, and faster.

The track holding all the electrical wires on the 70 can be a real problem. Its my understanding the new 70's eliminated that. What year they started that, I don't know.

Computer. If you are cutting consistent thicknesses, its worth it. We had to upgrade to Accuset 2. It was not cheap. If you are like Brucer, you may not need it. But at least on the all electric option, if Accuset one goes out, the mill sits until the Accuset 2 arrives. But most likely, unless you get a really old 40, it will have accuset anyway. There are no parts available that I know  of for the really old computers.  But at least you can run it without the computer working.

Blades. You have more options with the 70. The bandwheels are bigger, and you can run the .055 without breaking them much easier than the 40.

Command control center. Saves a lot of walking. When we bought our first 40, we got the seat option. We were cutting predominately grade lumber. I reasoned that a guy on a seat could keep a  better eye on grade quality. And to some extent it was true. Both our mills now are stand at the station and run it. But last I checked, our grade lumber sales have fallen to 2.7% of sales. Pitiful. If you are custom cutting, just get what you can so you don't have to walk all day.

I would not be worried about getting anything from a 40 to a 70, and anything in between. Take your  time and find a good used one. And keep an eye to the future. You say you will be a  one man operation. Its quite amazing how fast you can wind up with a couple of helpers, an edger, support equipment, etc. Whatever your mill choice is, it will be faster with help. You have a plan now; in two or three years, that plan might be radically different. Don't be afraid to get more mill than you think you need now. You might need all  of it down the road.

[Larry]

Thank you for the responses.  I will be doing this as a one-man-band for the most part.  The comments about higher production is only possible when extra manpower is present are great pointers.  I will try to imagine operating by myself, the next time I go sawing with my friend. He is a huge help for sure! He did tell me that it is significantly more time to produce the same pile of lumber when he is working alone and most of the time he is alone.

In that case the command console and dragback is a necessity.  Coupled with a roller table my production is nearly as good alone as with a helper.  The control console also keeps me out of the sawdust.  The only downside is one can see better with a walk or ride along grade sawing.

I'm a big fan of keeping machines simple, so less things can break and even then they are easier to fix.  The presence of a computer in a mill adds a level of problem sources that I'm not entirely comfortable with, but I also don't know anything about them. 

I to was leery of computerized setworks.  Would have passed to save a few dollars, but setworks was standard on my TK when I bought it.  Now that I have it I consider it another necessity for production.

I wish I had spent a few more dollars and got a diesel.  Even one the same size as my gas motor.

Auctions seem to be the place for sawmill deals.  Some of the internet ads seem to be sellers fishing with unrealistic bait (aka prices).  Make sure you have your finances figured out so if a deal comes up you can snap it up.  The good ones don't last.

[Magicman]

I first visualized my sawing business as mostly stationary, sawing my own plus bought logs, and selling lumber.  That only lasted a couple of months when it became obvious that there was a market for portable sawing. 

Yes, I removed my Board Dragback, but all of the other "bells & whistles" sawmill features are well used.  They include such items as; SetWorks, Debarker, dual hydraulics, Diesel, and operator's seat.  I added three Fine Adjust Outriggers this year which are a huge benefit for setup and readjusting the sawmill on soft ground.

I saw the customer's logs with help provided by the customer.  I have been accused of "sawing um & leaving um".     I know that your available saw time is limited, and you do not want to make customer commitments that you can not keep.  Simply buy as much sawmill as you can comfortably afford.  Sawmills hold their value very well and upgrading in the future can always be done.  There are plenty of good marketing tools such as sawing at a local seed/feed store or county fair.  A good website will also provide sawing opportunities.

[GDinMaine]

It seems that most people prefer the diesel and I would be in that camp as well.  However.  If I buy a new mill I might not spring for the diesel just to cut down on the initial cost.  I'm sure a gas engine could far "outsaw" my level of experience for a while.  Is it possible to upgrade to a diesel - when the time comes - without having to get a whole different mill?  I mean would the diesel bolt up on the saw head, probably with adapters and whatnot, but is it possible? 
I see a fair number of mills with the controls mounted at the hitch and the electrical lines riding in a track.  Can you give your opinion on that operator position?  I think that the track is in the way some and the lines might be easier to damage.  Also can you see properly from that far away?  Extra walk or not, problems, pluses?  Can one of those be converted to a walk along if later desired?
Also.  I see a lot of mills with CAT engines and fewer with Kubotas and others.  I own a trouble free Kubota and the neighbors have Yanmars in their trouble free JD tractors, so I trust those , but know nothing about the CAT. 
Thank you

[BBTom]

My LT40 has the kubota 42 hp turbo diesel on it.  It now has close to 6000 hours on it with only two repairs.  Front oil seal and water pump.  I think that is amazing. 

The Command Console ( standing at the hitch) with the board dragback work well together when working by yourself. The Accuset is not just for remembering where to set the height, it sets the height much faster than by hand. 

I bought an LT40 SH with all the bells and whistles that where available at the time (2001), it was what they had on the floor when I needed a mill.  I have grown to love all of the extras even though I would not have paid for them if I would have waited for a mill to be built for me. 

I am not a big fan of the Per-Cat engines myself, but I know many guys love that yellow color.

Final note: When it is all said and done, You are not making money unless the blade is in wood. All the other problems can be overcome with more help or support equipment as your business progresses.

Good luck

[thecfarm]

No matter what color the mill is those wires SOMEDAY will need some attention. But will give you many hours of trouble free sawing.

[GDinMaine]

So.  In my ongoing quest to make up my mind on used or new mill I have been reading threads about general mill maintenance.  I noticed that people say as long as worn out parts are replaced and the engine is properly maintained mills can easily operate 10,000+ hours, sometimes on the same engine.  Since I narrowed my search to the Woodmizer I would like to ask about those specifically.  What is the first "milestone" operating hours where parts starting to wear and require replacement.  I read about brushes and electrical motors needing attention, rollers and bearings that keep the head properly aligned on the rail/frame, engine mounts wearing out.  Rarely, but on the higher pain side bearings in the drive and idle wheels on the saw head need replacement.  What are the ROUGH intervals of these and or similar things problems?

The fact that used mills could be had for a VERY significant discount compared to new ones is wearing on my mind.  I see them with less then 100 hrs but they are still priced fairly close to new.  How much wrenching would one have to do on something like the one below.
I found a 1999 LT40 Super 3200hrs with Kubota diesel.  The mill has several things that require attention or replacement.   Accuset TL module gone bad, bent front jack, bad blade lube pump, bad glow plugs or glow plug relay and last the blade tension handle is broken due to sticky operation.  The owner gave me the list very willingly giving the impression that he is an honest guy.

[fishpharmer]

I would inquire about all the electric drive motors, seems like most would at least need new brushes by now.  The water lube pump is a relatively easy fix/replacement.  Not sure of the expense involved with the parts needed for the Kubota.  Generally, they are good solid engines that sip fuel. 

Accuset will probable need disconnection or replacement.$$$$

Will it run and cut a log now?  Get him to demo it for you, if the mill will saw a log and the engine doesn't smoke like crazy, its probably okay.

Everything else seems minor and fixable.  If you are a patient, fixit kinda fella, and can get it for a good price, grab it. 


I love my 98 Superhydraulic.

[Kansas]

I would call Woodmizer and get some prices. I was once told you could run it without the Accuset, then when ours went out, found out we couldn't, but then we have the all electric model and that somehow made the difference. That will cost some bucks.Everything else is easy, and not priced terribly high. As far as main drive bearings, if I had to guess, about every 4000 hours or so. My guess is we replaced bearings 5 or 6 times on our old LT 40 Super. How much cheaper is the used one? 3200 hours is just getting broken in good, at least in our world. Sooner or later you have to learn every nut and bolt on that mill anyway.

And one tip. When you go to check oil in the gearbox, don't take the plug off after running it, see oil, and figure its full. Add oil until it runs out. We found out the hard way about that one.

[Jim_Rogers]

I can only tell you about my experiences with my mill.

I don't have a diesel engine so I can't help you with any advice on those. Other than to say to follow all recommended maintenance. Such as adjusting the valves. I lost my first gas engine by not doing that.
My second gas engine has lasted 10 years by doing it.

About the mill. One thing the maintenance schedule said to do was to check the oil in the main drive shaft bearing housing at 1000 hours. My bearing were worn out to the point where the band would not stay on the wheels at 617 hrs. due to lack of oil.

It seems that back then there wasn't any vent cap on the reservoir and the heat caused the oil to expand and when there was no vent then the oil was pushed out through the bearings. After I changed it with a new one, they send out a vent to me for the bearing oil reservoir.
Now they have an inspection tube where you can see the oil level easily. I made up my own and installed it a will ago. I wrote a story about it here on the forum with pictures. If this one doesn't have one you should/could make up your own. Or most likely buy a retro fit kit.

As with all machinery that gets used on a daily basis things wear out. And that usually happens in the middle of a job on a weekend or sometime when all the stores are closed.

When you get by this problem, and buy a replacement part, if you can afford it buy two. One to put on and one to put on the shelf so you'll have one for later on. I carry a box of spare parts with me when I'm doing some onsite work. Having them on hand with your tool box can make a simple breakdown fast and easy to repair.

Good luck with your search.

Jim Rogers 

[drobertson]

Morning GDinmaine,  I have been reading the posts, and all are right, If you go used, and have time to be patient, give them all a good looking over. Take notes and consult a tech on what you have found. I went to a mill a few days ago, a used lt 70, it had been out in the weather for a few years, rust and the sort. It did run pretty good, it did have the original accusset which is ok so long as it keeps working.  My opinion is this, go hydraulic, accusset, lubemizer, debarker. Diesel is ok, just winter is a chore. block heater for sure.     david

[Magicman]

I would have no hesitation about buying a '99 model, but I probably would schedule it for factory service next year.  It may cost you $600, but it will be money well spent.  When the technician finishes, the sawmill will be 100%.  I schedule mine about every 3 years. 

[pineywoods]

I do all my own maintenance and a lot of the maintenance on 3 other local mills. The point where things start frequent failures seems to be around 5000 hours.

That of course will vary depending on things like being out in the weather versus under a shed..and whether the mill got the normal maintenance..

[drobertson]

The one issue I have with using the scale stick rather than having the Accusset is on my mill I am at the command contol box by the hitch, I have to run the mill all the way back to see the numbers to make the drop. then it involves some bumping the head up and down to get where I want to go, The accusset is so dag gone precise it just blows my mind, over and over again.  Not sure if I could saw without it now. I know I would not want to, On walk along mills this might not be so bad.  I am not sure of the fuel consumption on the gas models, I guess this depends on what is being cut,  It seems to avg, around 1500 ft or better per 5 gallons with my 51hp cat,

[GDinMaine]

Thank you all for your opinion and pointers.  It seems I should be able to handle things with mills between 1000-3000 hrs and it would give me a good cushion of time before I get thrown into the real deep.  Having worked along an Lt-40 I would not be intimidated by the mechanical parts of the mill itself.  However the electronics (ie computer) are a challenge and I would leave the engine adjustments to the real pros.  I just came from the bank and the finances are in proper order.  Now I just have to find the right saw.   digin1

[Brucer]

I can adjust the height on an LT40 to the nearest 1/32" on the first try (always dropping the head below the target and then bringing it back up). It took quite a bit of practice to get to this point -- for the first year it took 3 or 4 tries, sometimes even more.

I suspect if I tried to do this on a Super, with its faster drive motor, I would be back to making 3 or 4 tries to get it right. That's where the accuset has the advantage.

[drobertson]

Funny you say that, because the other day while cutting I just left it in manuel mode, and hitting the numbers were not so bad.  It is about like anything we do, the more we do it, the better we get.   You mentioned the speed of the supers,  mine seems pretty fast, up and down.  The lt 70 my friend has seems, is, slower, painfully slower, up and down.

[MAI]

GD,
If you have any questions regarding insuring your mill please let me know.  As a FF sponsor specializing in portable band saw insurance the input and feedback you are receiving from our members is priceless.

Good Luck on your search.