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Question for you metric people.

Started by hackberry jake, September 17, 2012, 03:06:35 PM

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hackberry jake

I assume people that use the metric system cut their lumber to metric sizes... Do you guys still cut dimensions close to standard? Like instead of saying a 2x4 do you call them 50x100? And for some reason, we round way up. Our 2x4 is actually about 1.5x3.5. Do you guys do that as well?
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Ianab

Basically yes.

A 4x2" here is a 100x50 mm. For rough sawing we just use 25mm equals an inch, close enough. A dimensioned board would be the metric equivalent of your sizes.

I believe a lot of finished construction timber is actually imported into the states from Europe and certainly some from NZ. It will have been cut to metric sizes that match the old Imperial inches.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

grweldon

I'm not sure if I understand...

Are you saying that you would mill a 2x4 (4x2?) to 38 x 88 (88 x 38) [76.2 x 38.1] which is actually 1.5 inces by 3.5 inches?  Sounds like that would be difficult without a computer setworks...

What are the dimensions of the relative equivalent in NZ or any other metric country?
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

Ianab

That's the finished machined size of the dry board. Easy enough to set a 4 head moulder to 38 x 88mm

Sawing would be done oversize to allow for shrinkage and machining, and pretty much all the commercial sawing would be done on a big computerised mill anyway.

On a small scale swing blade or dimension saw, you just set the scale to whatever size you want. 100mm, 88mm, makes no difference to where you set the pointer. You aren't sizing a cant and referencing to from the deck to get an exact number of boards. You start at the top, and work your way down until you have a bottom slab left on the bunks.

We would seldom saw construction lumber anyway, our pine needs to be treated and graded for house construction anyway. The mass produced pine is cheap enough that's it's not really worth it.

NZ only officially changed to Metric in 1976, and my current house was built in 1960, so it was built in feet and inches. Changing to metric just means reading the other side of the ruler. Most of them still have both systems on them.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Satamax

Hi.

Well, in france, we use stick framing too on some buildings. A 2x4 is 50mmx100mm when freshly cut, or even a smidge more, then it gets planed and dried, and you end up with 45mmx95mm, or 1" 3/4x 3" 3/4.

Most of the dimensional is 4m lenghts or 20' 8 inch wide (200mm) or 225mm which would be 9inch aproximately. Thicknesses, 25mm, 35mm, 45mm,50mm, 60mm sometimes,75mm and 100mm from 50mm upwards, you rarely see 8 inch wide boards. In pine, you also see 63x175mm, called bastaings, usualy used for hiden joists. And 60x100 called rafters used for rafters. And i forget, 3x4cm, which are usualy 27mmx37mm once dried, and 4x6cm= 37mmx57mm and 4x8cm= 37mmx77mm. That's the most common sizes in france. And in Italy too. Dunno about northern europe. Uk is the same as you, using board feet etc. While we calculate by cubic sizes. 1 cubic meter or 1000000cm3 is worth 350 euros aproximately in treated pine.  So 0.8 cubic M would be worth 0.x350= 280€, and soo on.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

JustinW_NZ

I have a little "Cheat Sheet" as I call it stuck to the mill.

Lists the Call size (green sawn) Nominal (dried) and Finished size (Dressed or machined size)
I also have it there for hardwood and softwood, as they are different in shrinkage terms..

So a 2*4 or more acurate a nominal 50mm*100 i would cut green at 56mm by 110 in hardwood (Euc's etc) so once dry and now 50mm by 100mm (or close enuf)  its then feed through the planners to become a 40mm by 83mm or so.
As Ian said - easy to setup a 4 sided planner to spit out whatever * whatever :)

Ive seen a few variances on this here but the key being as long as its agreed on what the end use is and theres enough 'meat' on the board once dry it can be planed to the right thickness, and with enough there any minor twisting etc gets taken out too..

I personaly just ask the customer what they want the wood sizing to be once dry - or nominal size, then explain i will be oversizing it for a start but dont worrie once dry it should be pretty close.
Most stuff here as Ian said isnt for houseing as such (except flooring) , so lots of siding for sheds or outdoor furniture where it really doesnt have to be anything other than say 50mm or 80mm normally.

Anyway, being of the generation after NZ switched to metric i have a hard time with imperial so i like this talk of 50*100's  8)

Cheers
Justin
Gear I run;
Woodmizer LT40 Super, Treefarmer C4D, 10ton wheel loader.

Ga Mtn Man

We (the States) tried to make the switch back when I was in high school.  It didn't stick.  I guess we're just stubborn that way. :-\  I wish it had taken hold as it really is a much easier system to use.  Just a matter of getting "how long is a cm" into your knoggin. 

"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

hackberry jake

It might be easier to use, but two by four sure is easier to say  8)
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

JustinW_NZ

Quote from: hackberry jake on September 17, 2012, 06:42:30 PM
It might be easier to use, but two by four sure is easier to say  8)

I cant dissagree there.
But Bear sounds nice as well, right about till you meet one  ;D

hmm beer... (its getting more summer like around here)  ;)

Cheers
Justin
Gear I run;
Woodmizer LT40 Super, Treefarmer C4D, 10ton wheel loader.

Ga Mtn Man

"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

Al_Smith

Quote from: Ga_Mtn_Man on September 17, 2012, 06:38:09 PM
We (the States) tried to make the switch back when I was in high school.  It didn't stick.  I guess we're just stubborn that way. :-\   
I think the master plan was to totally switch to metric in the mid 80's ,didn't happen .It did as far as automotive stuff to a certain  degree though .

Kind of comical though regarding the system of which I use every day because of my job .That aside if for example you get on a British mototcycle site or related to engines etc  low and behold if they don't refer to the system of measurements we still use .But thinking about that the Brits gave us miles ,feet,inchs of which are three barley corns to the inch .So evidently old habits die hard even for the metrically inclined . ;D

Okrafarmer

I personally like the English system, can't stand metric, but I'm just stubborn. I consider the metric system to be too sterile, too sanitized, too official. They missed a great chance to make them more interchangeable-- they could have made a meter to be 40 inches, and that would have been fine, but no.

I likes my feets and inches.  8)
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Brad_S.

Quote from: Al_Smith on September 17, 2012, 09:04:02 PM
Quote from: Ga_Mtn_Man on September 17, 2012, 06:38:09 PM
We (the States) tried to make the switch back when I was in high school.  It didn't stick.  I guess we're just stubborn that way. :-\   
I think the master plan was to totally switch to metric in the mid 80's ,didn't happen .It did as far as automotive stuff to a certain  degree though .
The wind industry is almost exclusively metric. Towers heights are measured in meters, wind speeds are measured in meters per second. After a while, you get used to it and can make approximate conversions in your head fairly accurately.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Okrafarmer

When I was in Australia, I got so I could convert most any metric item to English in my head, at least approximately. Even the Celsius to Fahrenheit.  :-\
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

hackberry jake

Any temperature calculation you do needs the temperature converted to rankine or kelvin. Really they make more sense. Start at absolute zero an get rid of the negative stuff.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Okrafarmer

Quote from: hackberry jake on September 17, 2012, 11:13:39 PM
Any temperature calculation you do needs the temperature converted to rankine or kelvin. Really they make more sense. Start at absolute zero an get rid of the negative stuff.

In theory, you are right, but I don't know anyone personally (not even WHD) who daily thinks in rankine or kelvin, even if they do know how it works. And I'm not about to start.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

hackberry jake

https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Brucer

A Black Bear can be just about any colour (including black ;D). It's the name of the species, not the colour of the bear.

When Canada went metric a 2x4 was officially changed to 38 x89 mm. But we still called it a 2x4 -- that was its name.

Of course after we got half way there the government abandoned the whole idea :(.

I built my house in metric, using metric measuring tools. All the drawings were in millimetres and all the tools measured in millimetres. It was a DanG sight easier than working in feet and inches. One mm is between 1/16" and 1/32" and is accurate enough for general carpentry without having to mess with fractions.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Ianab

QuoteThey missed a great chance to make them more interchangeable-- they could have made a meter to be 40 inches, and that would have been fine, but no.

Defeats the purpose of the Standard Units.

One cubic metre of water just happens to weigh one metric ton and be 1,000 litres. It also ties into time, energy, temperature etc.

It's not a random measurement based on the length of a Roman soldiers sandal or where the "Foot" came from.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Okrafarmer

Quote from: Ianab on September 18, 2012, 12:51:18 AM
QuoteThey missed a great chance to make them more interchangeable-- they could have made a meter to be 40 inches, and that would have been fine, but no.

Defeats the purpose of the Standard Units.

One cubic metre of water just happens to weigh one metric ton and be 1,000 litres. It also ties into time, energy, temperature etc.

It's not a random measurement based on the length of a Roman soldiers sandal or where the "Foot" came from.

Ian

All of it was based off the circumference of the earth, which was thought to be one million meters. They found out afterward that they got it wrong by a significant amount. When this inconvenient truth was exposed, someone suggested simply making a meter 40 inches. Then the metric ton, the liter, and so on, would also have changed slightly. But no, the metric-minded people were adamant, it would stay the way it was.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

sigidi

WOW!! that is just plain crazy!!! whoever heard of a 4x2 being 89x3what was it? ah yeah 38mm if a customer over here wants timber and say 4x2 I ask if they want 4x2 or they want 100x50 - that's it. You cant go cutting it oversize for it to eventually shrink to some measurement, who says when they are going to use it? and each species shrinks differently and in a species it shrinks differently radial to tangential, so then depending upon the orientation and size of growth rings each individual stick will shrink differently too???? whoa my head hurts... off the saw it is 100x50 or 4x2 depending upon the customers on site request. If/when I'm selling timber an 8x2 is 200x50 simple
Always willing to help - Allan

Satamax

Quote from: hackberry jake on September 17, 2012, 06:42:30 PM
It might be easier to use, but two by four sure is easier to say  8)

Quote from: Ga_Mtn_Man on September 17, 2012, 06:50:06 PM
How do you ask for a 100mm x 50mm?

Easy.

Five by ten :D Cm that is.

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

JustinW_NZ

sigidi - Ive found its slightly off putting for some of the end customers and most of the folk arnt very troubled as long its all the same.
when they say and think 4*2 they just want 100*50

BUT

if im cutting logs for myself and i know there going to be flooring blanks then I need to cut them call size / dry to nomimal / machine to guage OR im going to either waste a lot of material and/or have the planer guys laugh at me  :( (and i hate waste)

As I like to put it to people are you either after rough sawn / rough use lumber or something that needs to be dimentional and uniform (when dried)
In my view ive found an ounce of education can go a long way to getting invited back  :D

Cheers
Justin
Gear I run;
Woodmizer LT40 Super, Treefarmer C4D, 10ton wheel loader.

JustinW_NZ

cabinet timber chart..



nz timber sizing - i like this one as it has cubic meters for each size :) http://timbernz.com/dimensions.html
Gear I run;
Woodmizer LT40 Super, Treefarmer C4D, 10ton wheel loader.

thecfarm

Ianab,I had no idea that NZ used foot and inches until 1976. Guess I missed that in metric class. I was in school in the conversion to metric era,about '78-79. I guess it got forgotten about.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

drobertson

Nice chart Justin, I use cheat sheets for nearly everything, it just helps me and anyone else who get tired of trying to remember everything.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

JustinW_NZ

Quote from: drobertson on September 18, 2012, 07:55:08 AM
Nice chart Justin, I use cheat sheets for nearly everything, it just helps me and anyone else who get tired of trying to remember everything.

yeah i forget things often  :'(

I should say ; that white chart above i just linked too i should say, look at the properties of the picture it will give you the site.

Gear I run;
Woodmizer LT40 Super, Treefarmer C4D, 10ton wheel loader.

drobertson

Yea you betcha!  There are lots of folks, like me that need help remembering stuff.  It just helps custormers that are unsure about sizes and stuff.  I even have one for simple sheds for the bd/ft required. This helps folks get an idea of what they are looking at without crunching all the numbers. There will always be variables, and this is o.k. too.   
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

grweldon

I really have no problem using either system or both.  I purchase machines for my company from Japan, Korea, and (Taiwan) and have been using metric sized allen wrenches since the mid-80s.  I don't prefer one over the other most times, but when working on autos, I like the fact that you don't have to know that 5/8 is bigger than 9/16... just that 12 is bigger than 10 and 13 is bigger than 12!  What could be simpler than that?

As far as conversion... millimeters x .03937 = decimal inches which are the units I work with most in my job as long as I'm not taking a machine apart.  We still manufacture pumps to the American standard... I guess that's why they are called ANSI pumps!
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

Al_Smith

This is a handy little down load that converts standard feet ,inchs ,miles etc to metric . http://joshmadison.com/convert-for-windows/

I can approximate most lengths ,areas etc in my head but temperature ,weights etc I lack the memory for so I just refer to this which is on my desk top of the 'puter .

sigidi

Yeah Justin, 100x50 is never being used as a flooring blank, over here a flooring blank needs to be cut at 104x27mm or they reject ya timber and you waste your time cutting it - but we weren't primarily talking flooring blanks ;) Also for flooring blanks I sit down and have a chat which each individual mill as to their exact requirement prior to cutting for them as each seem to have their own preference, a little bit of communication goes a long way to being invited back also
Always willing to help - Allan

JSR

In Canada, we use the metric system with everything. Exception to the rule, the lumber industry. Have not met too many lumbermen who use metric.
LT70HD62, WM edger. Love Lumber.

Brucer

Just about all the loggers in BC do. Logs are bought and sold using the BC Metric Scale.

Carpenters and timber framers stick to feet and inches.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

dgdrls

I still remember my construction materials Prof. Dr. Bruce AKA Doc Dirt. 
Units people, UNITS stay in one system for the whole computation!!!!!
He was a great guy started his career with Erie Bucyrus.
DGDrls

JustinW_NZ

staying in one system makes so much sense I have to agree!

Cheers
Justin
Gear I run;
Woodmizer LT40 Super, Treefarmer C4D, 10ton wheel loader.

Okrafarmer

No matter how much any of us would like to change things, it appears we are stuck with two systems, at least for the foreseeable future!  :-\
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Al_Smith

---over the "years " however they have figured out how to shave a little here and a little there off of standard  lumber sizes .Like 3/4" plywood is not 3/4 of an inch .A 2 by 4 went from 2 by 4 to 1 5/8 by 3 3/4 then to 11/2 by 3 1/2 .Kind of makes it real handy doing remodeling on older homes . :( You become an expert in the use of shims .

While I'm rambling on about it just try and find hardwood plywood made in the USA or Canada .The damned stuff comes from China most times .Imagine that good old midwestern white oak shipped to China then sent right back to where it came from .Came full circle .Makes a lot of sense to me --not . >:(

rmack

Quote from: Al_Smith on September 19, 2012, 06:56:46 AM
---over the "years " however they have figured out how to shave a little here and a little there off of standard  lumber sizes .Like 3/4" plywood is not 3/4 of an inch .A 2 by 4 went from 2 by 4 to 1 5/8 by 3 3/4 then to 11/2 by 3 1/2 .Kind of makes it real handy doing remodeling on older homes . :( You become an expert in the use of shims .

While I'm rambling on about it just try and find hardwood plywood made in the USA or Canada .The damned stuff comes from China most times .Imagine that good old midwestern white oak shipped to China then sent right back to where it came from .Came full circle .Makes a lot of sense to me --not . >:(

not to mention the fact that most of asia has been using teak and mahogany plywood for concrete forms on a massive scale for decades. I guess you go with what you got. I still believe we should be shipping boatloads of lumber to china instead of boatloads of logs.

btw, "you metric people" ?  :D
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

grweldon

That breaks my heart just to think of it!
My three favorite documents: The Holy Bible, The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of the United States.

Al_Smith

Well quite frankly on that there is a local log buyer,mainly veneer stuff that exports 90 percent of it to Japan .

To add more as I type there are crate after crate of machinery sitting on the floor where I work from India .Mahogany plywood for shipping crates .Imagine that .

Okrafarmer

Quote from: Al_Smith on September 19, 2012, 01:46:27 PM
To add more as I type there are crate after crate of machinery sitting on the floor where I work from India .Mahogany plywood for shipping crates .Imagine that .

smiley_lit_bulb  ;D Reuse, Recycle, Repurpose. . . Disassemble. . . . Repurpose. . . .Innovate. . . . . Think Outside the Crate. . . . .
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

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