Question for those who buy or sell firewood

[doctorb]

Most years, I purchase about 50% of the firewood I use (buy about 5 cords a year) and I always purchase it at least a year ahead of time. My former supplier retired, so I am trying a new guy this year.  Like many suppliers, he delivers the wood cut, split, and dumped.  He says his truck holds "about 3 cords", and I was delivered my first load this week.  He charged me $160/cord for a total of $480.

So I now move and stack this wood in my shed.  It's against a wall that's 22 feet long, I stack it 6 feet high, and the wood is 18" in length.  That means the entire row holds about 1.5 cords, if my math is correct.  I have enough room to make three rows exactly like that, so the entire area holds around 4.5 cords.

Unfortunately, my wood supplier is quite a bit short of his estimate of 3 cords.  His truck load is probably 2.25 cords, certainly not more than that.  This brings me to several questions for the firewood sellers and purchasers on the Forum.....

1.  While I did not try to stack this wood tightly (I want it to dry), is it correct to measure cord volume as I have done?  Does the classic 4x4x8 stack have criss-crossed logs which allows more airspace within the stack?  If so, this could account for the decreased volume of my wood compared to the delivery guy's estimate.

2.  Obviously, this firewood was dumped into the truck with a loader, so that, dependent upon wood length and the size of the split pieces, loads may vary in their volume of wood.  Yet wood suppliers tend to sell by the cord but deliver by the truckload, which is the issue creating this inequity.  His wood is high quality and clean, but, and he openly admits this, his wood is still green.  What would you do as a customer and, as a seller, how would you handle it when a customer respectfully brings this to your attention? 

[beenthere]

Dr
I'd first bring it to his attention and see what he says. That it isn't about "3 cords".
He could say it was just an estimate, and it really wasn't meant to be exact. For which he shouldn't say "about 3 cords" any more. ;)

However, likely there are state laws that rule the weights and measures. If he sells the wood by the cord, there may be strict rules that he should at least be aware of, and maybe only say he is selling a "truck" load.

If good split, dry wood and you like it, then maybe the purchase price is ok.

In the future (if he doesn't do anything about your report that it stacks just 2.25 cord), then I'd say will pay for what stacks, not what he dumps.

There are conversions for cubic feet 'dumped" vs 128 cu. ft. "stacked".  A difference that may just account for your lost 3/4 cord.

I think you stacked the wood correctly. It isn't cross piled to get a cord.

MD Weights and Measures defines a cord
A cord is the amount of wood stacked and stowed in a well-compacted manner in a space of 128 cubic feet, typically in a stack measuring four feet wide, by eight feet long, by four feet high (4 x 8 x 4 = 128 cubic feet), with no internal gaps. When properly stacked, the individual pieces of wood are in a line, parallel to and touching each other. Cubic feet is calculated by multiplying the width of the stack by its height and length.
http://mda.maryland.gov/article.php?i=4483

[gunman63]

I sell abaout 500 full cords or firewood a year, I deliver all in a dump trailer behind my pickup,  my dump trailer is 14' long, 6 1/2'  wide and with the side boards is 4' high. when i load the back couple feet of wood is tapered  down to about 3 feet,otherwise level,  I load with a skid steer, so the  top is  push down a little so its  tight. i figure 160 sq ft to a loose cord, and never had anyone complain, same  customers over and over,and them giving there  friends my name, so i have to be  close on measurements, everyone stacks different,  but u shouldnt have to cross stack to make it come out, what size  box is he dumping out of. he mite be getting buy with some people , because they really dont know what a cord is. but if he sint willing to  make it the correct amount, find a different suppier.

[gunman63]

should of added, some states say a cord of cut and split wood is 112 cubic  feet, which  when figured out of 3 cords  is about 1/3 cord less

[beenthere]

should of added, some states say a cord of cut and split wood is 112 cubic  feet, which  when figured out of 3 cords  is about 1/3 cord less

Which states are those? 

[gunman63]

should of added, some states say a cord of cut and split wood is 112 cubic  feet, which  when figured out of 3 cords  is about 1/3 cord less

Which states are those?

Minnesota is one if u dig deep enough, and a few out east, i forget which ones, i had a list, when i got into the firewood business, i did a lot of goggleing state DNR websites to see about loose stacked firewwood and came upon the  cut stacked firewood  measurements too.

[beenthere]

Here is what I found for MN.

239.33 STANDARD MEASUREMENTS OF WOOD.
In all contracts for sale of wood the term "cord" shall mean 128 cubic feet of wood, bark, and air, if cut in four-foot lengths; and if the sale is of "sawed wood," a cord shall mean 110 cubic feet when ranked, or 160 cubic feet when thrown irregularly or loosely into a conveyance for delivery to the purchaser; and if the sale is of "sawed and split wood," a cord shall mean 120 cubic feet, when ranked, and 175 cubic feet when thrown irregularly and loosely into a conveyance for delivery. If a measurement is made by weight, the term "cord" or any other term used to describe freshly cut wood shall be based on 79 cubic feet of solid wood content per cord. The weight per cord may vary by species or species group. In case of any dispute when the parties have not otherwise agreed in writing to the weight per cord by species or species group, the weight most recently established by the commissioner of natural resources prevails.

[snowstorm]

if you only paid $160 a cd for cut n split you got a deal. most around here are are atleast $200. i saw a ad in bangor for tl at $130. i have a copy of the scaling laws for the state of maine..somewhere. cut nsplit they do not use 128 cf. i am sure it is on the state website

[fenceman]

DocterB, I see you're in Glyndon, MD......still 2 cords short of annual purchase.  If you're led to switch vendors, I'll provide 128 cubic feet per cord loads delivered for $170......it's all been stacked inside a open air shed and dry as a bone, hardwood (oak and walnut). I'm 35 minutes north of your location.

[doctorb]

Thanks for your suggestions.  I only met this gentleman once, and really liked him.  I am pretty sure that he's been in business for quite some time, having seen his operation and the fact that many people out my way use him.  Somebody, somewhere has got to have stacked his truckload of wood before me!  I am definitely not looking for confrontation or unpleasantries.  When I order my next load, I'll mention it to him and see what he says.  His first load will be right there for him to see, so there will be little discussion on the actual volume of wood he delivered.  There may be too much "wiggle room" in the "about 3 cords" estimate.  He's basically selling a truckload of wood, and using a cord figure to determine his asking price.  I do not think that he's being consciously deceptive to his customers.  He may be fooling himself and making a little more money at the same time. :D

Fenceman-  As I already told this gentleman that I wanted another delivery, let me deal with him for now.  Any issues that come up, I'll PM you.  Do you sell firewood as a business or do you just happen to have a couple of cords hanging around and were kind enough to offer it to me?  My initial reaction to your offer is that you could sell seasoned wood for more than you are asking.  The wood he's delivering is green, and will not be used until next winter at the earliest.  Buying green wood keeps me ahead of the game and usually is lower in price.  Thank you for your offeer and you may hear from me yet!

[fenceman]

DoctorB,  since fencing is somewhat seasonal..I supplement our winter income with firewood.  We saw our own lumber for fencing which gives us a lot of slabwood, and we cut/split cordwood too.  We have about 100 cord this year, hopefully more next year since firewood use is up 33% in MD over the last 10 years (University of Maryland stats).  The price is set for what we must have, not what others are charging.  We handle the wood alot...stacking it in the shed...stacking it in the trailer for delivery.  see photos of our wood on Craigslist (Baltimore listing with Union Bridge sublet)....since I can't seem to upload a photo in this forum (?). 
    Not that I'm trying to horn in another wood provider's client....just an honest cord for honest buck.

[beenthere]

if you only paid $160 a cd for cut n split you got a deal. most around here are are atleast $200. i saw a ad in bangor for tl at $130. i have a copy of the scaling laws for the state of maine..somewhere. cut nsplit they do not use 128 cf. i am sure it is on the state website

This is what I found for Maine. (as of 2004)
§ 19. 5. Firewood
Firewood is a substantial supplier of our energy needs. Mainers burn nearly one million cords of
wood each year. A lot of people are buying wood, a lot of people are selling it, and a lot of buyers are
filing complaints about those sales.
Maine law prohibits the use of confusing terms in the sale of firewood such as “rack,” “pile” and
“truckload” since such terms are undefined and subject to various meanings. Maine law does provide
two definitions of a cord; one for a stacked cord, the other for a loose thrown cord.
A. Stacked Cord
A stacked or standard cord is a measure of wood, bark and air: 4 feet wide, 4 feet high and 8
feet long, or its equivalent, containing 128 cubic feet when the wood is ranked and well stowed.
“Ranked and well stowed” means that pieces of wood are placed in a row, with individual pieces
touching and parallel to each other, and stacked in a compact manner. ..........6 10 M.R.S.A. §2302(1)(A).

[NWP]

In Missouri, the law states that there can be a 5% discrepancy either way and still be considered a legal cord.  I figure 180-190 cubic feet loose for a cord of 16-18" wood.  This will be very close to a cord every time.  The longer the sticks, the more loose cubic feet it requires to stack to 128 cubic feet.  I deliver to some restaurants where we have to stack the wood so this allows me to check ourselves.  You could innocently ask him on the phone how many cubic feet are in a cord before you tell him what his delivery stacked out to.  Then ask what he's going to do about it.

[WDH]

It is not your fault that he has a sloppy process.  He might well have thought that the load was "about 3 cords", but it was not.  He should cover the shortage.  2.25 cords is not "about" 3 cords.

I do not sell "short" boards to people.  I doubt that you "leave out a few stitches" when you do your job.

[Buck]

Doc, If he's worth his salt he will make it right with you. I have started scooping and dumping in the past few years and I miss occasionally. I do always tell my customer that if they are unhappy i will make it right.  I have had folks contest measured stacks before and I just take the lick. My best advertisement is my happy customers. With all that being said, I am trying to get away from deliveries and just sell racked stacks of different sizes for a set price.  Approx 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2 cord stacks but I want to sell the racked stack for a set price and take out all interpretations and slang terminology.  :-\

[Ken]

I would always try to satisfy a customers concerns about any service I provide.  My dump trailer is nearly 180 cubic feet.  I've never had a complaint about it not holding 1 cord of loosely thrown in cut and split wood.   I often hear complaints about people getting "shorted" on their firewood purchase but it seems pretty hard to get any satisfaction in an industry that is largely based on cash payments. 

Doctorb, I would have to bring it to the suppliers attention.  It appears to me that you were shorted around 25%.  Pretty significant.  If he doesn't respond quickly you know who not to call next season.  I'm sure glad we don't have to deliver for $160/cord.  I wouldn't bother.  Around here green cut, split and delivered goes for around $250/cord.

[stavebuyer]

Doc,
He is being less than truthful in his advertising. Your paying around $213 a cord by my math. I would mention it and expect his response to be that the cord volume was estimated and he sells his wood for $480 a truck load. I'd clear it up before he delivers the next load.

[stumper]

Some of the issue may be in when he measured the cord.  If you have 10 cords of tree length process it to 8 foot and stack it you have less.  process it again to 4 foot and you have even less.  Things change at this point and if you then process to fire wood is swells to more the the 4 foot volume.

Here in Maine the larger mill buy tree length by the ton and chips buy the cord. 

I suggest you review your state law, talk to the supplier and then proceed.  Likely there is nothing the law will do at this point because you moved the wood and time has passed.  Here in Maine you can protect a scale but I beleive you need to do so before the wood is touched.

The price of wood is a strange thing.  Maine is the most heavily forested state in the nation but we are paying more per cord then you.  That is because we have mills (though the number has been dwindling) compeeting for the same hardwood we burn.  A tri-axle truck here gets around $100 an hour to load, haul and return to the next load.  If they have to travel an hour to the mill it costs a lot less then if they have to travel 3 hours.  I suspect the mills taking firewood quality are quite haul from your area driving down the local price.

[blackfoot griz]

I had a local lady last year question me on my delivery. I had two pallets of firewood. 3 rows of 16" length stacked 4' +on each pallet.

She knew a cord was 4 x 4 x 8.  She just had a tough time with  4 x 4 + 4 x 4= 4 x 4 x 8.
I carefully lined up the pallets and had a tape measure....she got it and admitted that it was over a cord.

[AvT]

I sell a bit of firewood.  If I was buying I would be happy with 180 cubic ft. of loosly loaded wood to be a cord.  The thing with green wood is it will shrink a bit and will be a few percent less than a cord when cured which could be taken into consideration as well.  If I read your post correctly Dr.  I would consider your situation a bit of a rip off.  When I deliver wood people are usually surprised at the volume I consider a cord which leads me to believe there are a lot of sellers out there shorting their customers.

Oh there is a "but"  which is around here a cord of oak would sell for $500.  Oak does not grow here.  So I am saying that even being shorted as much as you were, it may be a reasonable deal depending on the quality of the wood, and what other vendors  have to offer.  $160 per cord delivered seems like a very good deal to me!

[doctorb]

AvT-  I have remarked here on the FF previously about the cost of firewood in Canada.  We have a three season cabin in Ontario, and burn a bit in the Spring and Fall.  Most years, and with different vendors, it's cost about $100 / face cord, so that's $300 / per cord.  I can't figure why the cost is so much higher than in the States as there is plenty of oak and maple at that end of your beautiful country.

I tried to call the wood guy today and left a carefully worded message.  I just talked to my wife who said that he called back, and stated that he counts bucket loads when he fills his truck and that he may have been one short on my load.  He doesn't know and will look at it when he delivers the next load.  I am OK with that.  He sounded like he wants to correct the problem, and that's fine with me.

[WDH]

Good deal.  That is proper.

[Logging logginglogging]

I buy it log length and cut and split my self, Easy to see what you are getting oer load and saves a LOT of money.
I suggest doing this since you are getting it a year in advance you have pleanty of time to process it.
Personally I only do wood a couple hours a night aftrer work. Withink 1.5 weeks I had a full 12 cord cut, and I can usually split about 1.5 cord a night.

[brendonv]

I, like many others mentioned, sell a cord of wood as 180cuft of hand tossed 18" +/- lengths.  I just started selling, and sold about 10 this year, and a couple people stacked and I've come back and brought them more so they must of been happy with the first cord.  I'd rather give more than less, if I have to go back out because I shorted someone it wasn't worth it in the first place.  I feel like with machine loading, the wood has loads of air space.  Right now I hand toss, but will "up grade" to loading with a conveyor once I get it going.  I don't sell much, just like to heat my house and get rid of residential wood waste.

Sounds like your guy will make good on the issue.  Good luck!

[stumper]

Things are pretty clear in Maine in this regard.

Previous post have defined a stacked cord.  This is the definition of a loose cord.

Maine law also defines a loose thrown cord7 as: "Fuel wood, when sold loose and not ranked and
well stowed, shall be sold by the cubic foot or loose cord, unless other arrangements are made between
the buyer and seller. When sold by the loose cord, the wood in any cord shall average either 12 inches,
16 inches, or 24 inches in length. When so sold, the volume of the cord shall be: a cord of wood 12 to
16 inches in length shall mean the amount of wood, bark and air contained in a space of 180 cubic feet;
and a cord of wood 24 inches in length shall mean the amount of wood, bark and air contained in a
space of 195 cubic feet."

Firewood dealers usually deliver loose thrown cords. The volume of a loose thrown cord can best
be measured in a container, i.e., a truck. Once a loose thrown cord is stacked it should measure
somewhere between 115 and 124 cubic feet per cord.