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Installing Radiant in my garage, I have a bunch of ? head is spinning

Started by JOE.G, September 12, 2012, 08:12:13 AM

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JOE.G

Hi, I am putting up a 28 X 28 Garage, first floor will have 10 Ft ceilings, the Second floor is just for storage and will have 8 Ft Ceilings, The first floor ceiling will be insulated.

I am getting a 1000 Ft roll of 1/2 In tubing and will be putting down the insulating tarp below it.

I am not adding the actual heat source yet, prob will do that next year but want to get the pipes run now.

I won't have a full time water source out thee for a while I can reach it with a hose to charge the system.

What kind of heater should I use? I have choice of electric and LP, I am unsure if I should use a 40 or 50 Gal water heater or a Instant Heater Elec or LP?

Thoughts? Thanks

P.S is Radiant even the way to go, I plan to keep the heat around 50 Deg I don't want to spend a fortune to heat the place, Just want to keep stuff from freezing.

If I was going to be out there for a while how long would it take to raise from 50 Deg to say 65 ot 70? if out side temp say was around 30 Deg.
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scsmith42

Joe, yes - radiant is definitely the way to go from a comfort perspective.  How quickly that it heats up from 50 - 70 degrees will depend upon the size of your water heater - probably a day or so.

If you're only going to work inside a few times a month, then you would spend less $ using a propane forced air heater instead of radiant, IMO.

Be sure to insulate not only underneath the slab, but also on the outside of the slab (ie between the outer edge of the slab and the ground, or above ground).   I used TekFoil under my slab; but the engineers at Radiantec prefer a couple of inches of foam board in colder climates.

I used 1/2" pex in mine, the perimeter loops started just inside of the inner walls. The spacing between the coils is as follows:  Outer loop - 9" spacing, then increase to 18", then increase to 24" for the bulk of the slab.  You want your coils closer together on the outer portion of the slab because that is where the heat loss occurs.
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Den Socling

I would run multiple loops, too. I have about 6 in one section of my shop. When everything was done, I pressure tested them. One leaks. I don't know how but I can't use that one.

JOE.G

I was thinking of doing four loops, I want a heat source that I can keep the temp up enough to keep things from freezing all winter long, I also don't want to spend a ton of money to heat it. If I need temp up quick I can always get a salmander or something like that for a quick heat boost.
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WmFritz

    This is a timely thread for me as I am in the process of doing one myself. I poured my floor two years ago and now I'm getting everything else installed.

    Four loops will work fine. It's recommended you keep your loop lengths under 300'. Also, make the loops the same length. I used 5  250' loops for a 1300 sq. ft. slab. For my heat source, I'm using a lp tankless hot water heater rated for 140,000 btu's.
    My building is a cabin and I'll keep the floor heated @ 50° all winter and 70° when I'm there. On paper, I calculated it should take around 6 hrs to get there.
   
~Bill

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JOE.G

I was thinking of doing tankless, I use one for my home a 199,000 BTU and I love it. I would rather pay more now to install and then save in my yearly heating costs, Like I said I just want to keep stuff from freezing out there, I don't care if I can't walk around in shorts.
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WmFritz

  I've got the same size tankless in my home, too. I put it in about 8 yrs. ago and I'm very happy with mine also.
   
  When I built the cabin in 2010 I installed one for my domestic hw. Last weekend , I put a second one in for a closed radiant system. One unit could do both but, I decided to keep them independent.
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

stumpy

I was planning the same thing a year ago.  I spoke with the people at Radiantec.com.  They recommended a water heater instead of a tank-less heater.  Said they have had problems with the tank less unit's controls because they are designed to operate with constant pressure in one direction such as in a home use.  When used in a floor heat application, there is no pressure and the controls begin to act funny.  By the way, if you go on their site, you can submit some info and they will layout the system and create a material list.  They do this for free in hopes that you will buy the material from them.  Also, there are different types of PEC tubing.  I was told there is only one type that should be use for this.  I don't remember which one, but they can tell you.
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JOE.G

I just want to make the right choice and I need to make it soon since we should be pouring with in the next two weeks.
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Hilltop366

Cap one end and put a manifold on the other with a air fitting and gauge before you pour the floor, get a fitting or two and have them handy in case of a leak.

I spaced my loops far enough apart to run another loop inside of it (think of two forks meshing together) so if one loop fails I will still have some heat over the entire area instead of some heat on one side and none on the other. It helps to draw the loop plan to scale on paper first for this.

Mine is heated off of my wood furnace, if I was using another heat source I would look into adding a solar panel to put heat in the floor during the day  needed or not during the heating season.

Holmes

Tankless or on demand water heaters are NOT recommended for heating.  Rinnai does make a boiler that looks like their tankless water heater. A propane water heater will do the job if it is at least 50,000 btu's but it will operate at maybe 75% efficiency.   Electric water heater might  work if it has 2 , 4500 watt elements in it {31,000 btu's}.. The tubing will work fine if it is spaced 12" on center and tied done to the wire mesh or rebar.  The pex tubing needs to have an oxygen diffusion barrier , water pipe pex does not have the barrier.   Last week I was at a 24 x 30 garage they tried to heat with an electric water heater with 1 ,4500 watt element.  Not enough heat and it ran perpetually, the first month bill was $1000 for electric, it did keep it above freezing though.
Think like a farmer.

Den Socling

Be sure to tie the PEX down tight before you pour. The stuff wants to float up through the concrete. I think that's how I got my leak. I drilled the concrete to place anchors for the columns of my bridge crane.

My building is "commercial". I had to get an engineer to do the layout. He had enough tube to melt an iceberg. Everything was supposed to be inspected but the building inspector never showed up. I left out a lot of loops and the building is still plenty warm. Of course, I do have a couple vacuum kilns.

WmFritz

QuoteTankless or on demand water heaters are NOT recommended for heating. 

I've never heard this. I think Radiantec pushes Polaris h/w tanks @ $3500 on up. They also recommend one low flow circulator for each loop, plus one medium size pump for the the tank. I'm positive this is a very efficient system.

My setup uses two medium size circulators supplying 10 loops. ( 5 in the slab and 5 more for the second floor). I plumbed everything into the slab last Saturday, ran it Sat. night and though it's not cold enough to test it yet, everything seemed to work as planned.

I know people who use gas and electric boilers, gas tank and tank less h/w heaters and owb's. I haven't heard any complaints.  I haven't met anyone using an electric heater but, I can see that it wouldn't have the btu's needed.

This is the heater I went with...


http://www.pexuniverse.com/takagi-t-kjr2-in-lp-tankless-water-heater-indoor-propane
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

Holmes

At  last years training class for Rinnai water heaters and boilers the instructor mentioned not to use on demand water heaters for heating systems .  That is what I am going by.
Think like a farmer.

DouginUtah


I know that in some cases using a standard water heater which is not classified as a boiler will result in cancellation of home owner insurance.
-Doug
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There is no need to say 'unleaded regular gas'. It's all unleaded. Just say 'regular gas'. It's not the 70s anymore. (At least that's what my wife tells me.)

---

JOE.G

My Navian unit states that it can be used as a boiler also, This is a tankless unit, I went to the heating suppl place and they recommended either a 40 Gal or a tankless unit for my set up. I am so confused. I don't want to waste money I just want a efficient heating system.
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Holmes

The best thing to do is read the directions. If the directions say the unit can be used for heating then you are all set as long as you follow the directions for installation and piping.
Think like a farmer.

redbeard

Skipping all the heat n flow calculations a simple way to understand in floor heating is lots of zones and not alot of ft length in your zones. , And lots of insulation as described by others. When hot water is circulating through your zone and returning to recovery tank the less  tempature drop the more efficent your system will be. Its important to really think your mechanical room layout, bring your ends of zone piping up preferably up a interior wall and space them 4" to  6" OC.  Mark them well,p flow and return for each zone. Zone layout is important also if its a shop try to put several zones where you will be standing in your work spaces. Just try to think it through. You can always tie your zones together top side and add more circ pumps at later dates. Hopefully iam not making this more confusing. Pipe is cheap its everything else that will occur cost at least you can add to your system at anytime.
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sbishop

I did the same when i built my garage 8 years ago, I installed the pex piping but still haven't hooked it up yet but its there when the time comes. I have 3000ft of it in my house and love it.

If i remember correctly the spacing for the piping was 12" but on the outsides walls i did 2 runs of 6" since that is where you loss most of your heat. like others have said, insulation under (the thicker the better, vapour barrier too) and insulation on the side of the cement.

And make sure to tie down the piping and pressurize with air. keep an eye on the pressure gauge while you are pourring the cement... Good luck...money well spent!

sbishop

Don_Papenburg

A runthat is too short will not be efficiant and one with too fast of water movment will not have time to transfer heat.  I was told 300' is max 200' is about the optimum for  good heat transfer. 
I use 1/2" pex on 6" centers .  Every room has its own pump /thermastat.
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JOE.G

I just installed it yesterday, It worked out to be 4 runs about 200 Ft each about 6 inch apart.
Husqvarna 562XP Woods Ported .025 pop up MM
Husqvarna Rancher 55 2005
Husqvarna 450 Anniversary Edition 2010
STIHL 009 1998
STIHL HT 131 Pole Saw 2012
STIHL FS 110 R Trimmer 2010
STIHL BR 600 Magnum Blower 2012

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