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3 phase power ???

Started by Sawdust Lover, September 08, 2012, 07:57:05 PM

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Satamax

Al, daft question, he could also run his motors directly with start and run capacitors? Couldn't he?  And may be a rheostat in series to dampen the curent surge.
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

bandmiller2

I still think for this much intermittant power a large three phase genny is a good option.With those commercial molder/planers wood flies through like poop through a goose get a stack ready then fire it up.Besides then you'll have scads of backup power in an outage. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Al_Smith

Quote from: Satamax on September 13, 2012, 03:03:31 AM
Al, daft question, he could also run his motors directly with start and run capacitors? Couldn't he?  And may be a rheostat in series to dampen the curent surge.
What you are refering to is called a solid state motor starter .It essentually is the same circuitry that is used to start a rotary converter.

How it works is by using one of the three phase motor windings as a start winding by adding a huge amount of capacitance to it causing a phase shift thus resulting in rotation .The "run" capaciters keep from inducing so much inductive reactance into the circuit that essentually it would burn itself out if not so provided .

Now yes these devices do work and in essence the motor runs in a open delta condition but it only prduces about 60 percent of usable power .IE 6 HP from a 10 HP unit .

Now something like this might work in the case of a large HP milling machine ran under lighter loads but it's iffy if it work work on a high capacity wood planer .Besides even if all it would save by this system would be the running amps of the converter or probabley in the case of 20 HP around 25 amps at idle .

Al_Smith

This is a good on line conversation .Keep in mind many referals are theoretical because none of us know exactly what the conditions are .Either with the large planer or how much power is available through the utility company .

Idealy with such a large usage of three phase a true three phase service would work best .However often is the case that the cost to get true three phase doesn't justify the means .

If a seperate  200 amp or larger single phase service could be negotiated through the power company it is a viable alternative and less expense to operate than dumping diesel fuel in a generater .Lastly in my opinion would be the generater and heaven forbid it be a gasoline powered .

Al_Smith

Rambling on most of the small converters I brewed up were 5-10-15 HP used for small shops ,small wood working machines and what not .The loads were such that it didn't effect the capacity of the normal 200 amp single phase services .

Now you get up in the total load of 40-50 HP it would max out what the average service can handle .I'm not saying it couldn't work but I am saying it's pushing the envelope .

Regardless of the method I certainly would grab onto a big planer like that as a freebie until a method becomes available to power it without mortgaging the farm .

Satamax

Thanksalot Al.

Well, regarding the use of fuel oil to power the geny, there's other option, filtered chip fat for example  ;D
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Al_Smith

Well yeah you could use bio diesel but that's another subject all together .

While that might be a nice project for  the more "greener " facet of the audiance I doubt seriously if this  guy with this giant planer would have much interest .He'd spend more time filtering out old smelly used fish and chips cooking oil than he'd spend planing lumber. Of course it would smell like North Atlantic cod fish and probabley draw cats from miles away meowing in the lawn by the hundreds. Might cut down in the mice population though .

Satamax

Or raise a little rabits, then sell the cats for rabits  ;D
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

trim4u2nv

   I remember going through the same decisions when i bought my first moulder. 
Before you purchase a phase convertor check the transformer on the pole and see what the KVA rating is (should be 45KVA or more).  You may not have 200A available from the transformer without causing a brownout. Another option is 2 tranformers in an open delta circuit if phases are available (generates 50% of what 3 transformers would).
   For me a skid mounted generator from an auction was the best solution.   A gasoline generator can be run on natural gas with little modification as a dual fuel system.   Also the cost of large service wires from the panel to the moulder can be expensive.  A generator can be 10 feet away from the moulder.
  Later I found a complete building with 3 phase and proper transformers for what it would cost to upgrade to a larger generator.  You could run the moulder partially loaded on a 200A service with a phase converter in the 20-25 hp range just start the largest motors first.    Remember each motor added to the circuit adds more power to the generated leg.  You can run mouldings in 2 or 3 passes and without all motors running dont forget (lowers peak power demand).

Al_Smith

I'm not sure and I suppose it depends on where you live if they use "peak demand " any more .Fact I haven't seen a true demand type meter in years .

Back when the power companies thought they could get a leg up on the billing we went around and added capaciter banks to some high billed customers .That blew the wind out of the thieving power companies sails . :D

Where I work has over two million square feet of manufacturing space and believe it or not runs at nearly unity power factor .Almost unheard of but I know it as fact .

Sawdust Lover

I have a 25kw generator that I run off my tractor during power outages. Would that work?

trim4u2nv

You probably need 100 to 145 kilowatt to run that if your at low power you could probably go 100 kilowatt.

bandmiller2

Sawdusty,how much HP do you have with your tractor.? Central Georga generator sells large three phase gen heads reasonable.Run it with your tractor or pick up an engine.I have a 10 kw genhead run with a Lister diesel as backup power its made in China but heavy duty,they do OK with old technology. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

trim4u2nv

Remember large motors use a 2
.5 times starting current which will trip off a small generator.  Dont forget a dust blower in the 15-20 hp range running concurrent with the moulder.

Sawdust Lover

Bandmiller, My tractor is a 65hp. I'm going to check out Central Ga. and see what they have as well. Looks like I have enough options here so I cant wait to see what I come up with. As for the dust collector it will need a 2800 cfm which I already have but it's 220.

Woodchuck53

That was my thought also. With the normal use of my 15" planer it has to have the blower up and running. I can't imagine running a larger one or a moulder with out one. So therefore capacity has to be addressed on the Rotary converter.

On this note (safety) I finally got around to planning the ceiling 1x12"s for the new garage. The old 3 hp motor had gave it up on the home made blower so it got a new one for this project. Using the planer from time to time I just scooped up the debris. Folks I had forgot how much associated dust they removed. The proof that they are healthier for us wood working folks is in the hankerchief. Just a comment. Carry on.
Case 1030 w/ Ford FEL, NH 3930 w/Ford FEL, Ford 801 backhoe/loader, TMC 4000# forklift, Stihl 090G-60" bar, 039AV, and 038, Corley 52" circle saw, 15" AMT planer Corley edger, F-350 1 ton, Ford 8000, 20' deck for loader and hauling, F-800 40' bucket truck, C60 Chevy 6 yd. dump truck.

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