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Building a Kiln Chamber

Started by Paul_H, May 24, 2003, 11:06:54 AM

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Paul_H

I am considering buying a WM DH4000 kiln and am wondering what size chamber to build. 10x22 x10 h ? Is a 5' wide stack to wide?Woodmizer has plans apparently,but I haven't seen them yet and would like to run some costs.

I was going to use 2x6 construction.Any thoughts,ideas?

Thanks.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

dewwood

Paul,
The WM kiln is a Nyle, I would go with the WM plans or Nyle's plans.  Staying pretty close to their recommendations would no doubt be beneficial.  I have a reefer trailer with additional blown on insulation and it works well but I would prefer side loading to the end loading necessitated with the reefer unit.

Make sure to ask about acceptable materials for use in the kiln application.  

Good luck with your project.

Dewey
Selling hardwood lumber, doing some sawing and drying, growing the next generation of trees and enjoying the kids and grandkids.

Neil_B

Paul,
Nyle has blueprints you can buy for 10 bucks US. They are decent plans and lists the materials for insulating and such.

Yeah, I would go with the 2x6 considering our cold Canadian climate. :D
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

Frank_Pender

Well, Paul you are really going to do it?   It is going to be a great adventure.  Yes, 2 x 6 walls is the thing.   I would also recommend that you make the building at least 16' wide at the entry side.  For your depth I would consider at least 32' and a 10' ceiling.  These are the spec for my new building on the drawing board of the Summer.  What are you planning on using for heat?  On your floor make sure you place a vapor barrier that is more than adequate.  I would even consider some sort of insolation device before pouring a cement floor.  What I plan on using is an Ebac 3000 DH unit for the size of room I described.   But again I am drying in a very unconvention manner.  For the interior of the room I would recommend sheet aluminum, as wide as you can get.  I would also place a Seka product as a joint compound when laping the lining.    Too, place more than enough electical outlets throughout the structure for fan locations etc.  It's going to be a fun prouect for you, I am sure.
Frank Pender

Paul_H

Frank,
That sounds like a big kiln :o How much will it do at a time? It must be far more than 3000 bf capacity.
The heat for the DH4000 is included in the unit(4 KW) It sounds like you're keeping busy!

New_sawyer and Dewey,

I got a look at some blueprints for a L500 Nyle kiln.I forgot that I had ordered them a couple of years ago.Thanks to my wife,who remembers these things,I got the gist of the construction.(but she gave me a hard time about it) ::)

The more I learn,the more questions there are.The kiln chamber for the L500 is quite a bit larger than I would need.
Can you stack loads side by side? eg. In a chamber have four stacks of 8' x 4' x 48 rows high. Or if the chamber was  front loaded in a 16' w x14' depth chamber, load 12' lengths,two lifts deep.(or two 8' stacks deep) Am I making this clear as mud? :D

Thank you all for your help.

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Neil_B

I think you can pretty much use any configuration of piles as long as there is adequate air space and the baffles are set up for it. The Nyle plans I have are for the 300 and 500 and there are a few numbers for sizes and configurations that can be played with, as well as the total board feet per load.
You could probably go 2 stacks deep or more if you had more fans to keep the air circulating?!

My kiln is going to be set up so that the ceiling is quite high. The plan is to be able to service my equipment, back hoe, truck and what not, when I no longer use it for a kiln or in between loads for now.

What amounts are you planning to dry per load?
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

Brian_Bailey

Paul -

             Don't make the mistake of sizing the chamber larger than the DH unit is designed for ( board footage wise ).  You will have problems maintaning a decent drying rate if you put in too much lumber in one charge.

 The rule of thumb on DH drying capacity is 1mbf / 1 hp of compressor for max. efficiency.

 The Woodmizer DH 4000 is made by Nyle and is equivalent to their L-200 which has a 2 hp compressor.  Brian...

WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Paul_H

The kiln I have been planning would hold a maximum of 4 mbf.So I thought two lifts of 12',or two 8' side by side.The guy that dried our flooring last year had the same DH4000 with a 10'x 17' chamber around 8' high.We had to stack everything in the kiln and stagger 6,8& 12' boards.It was a slow process,and a waste of space in the kiln,but it did a nice job on the wood.

If the chamber was 16' wide and 14' deep and I had two deep of 8',could a type of hinged "door" be used to swing in on both ends to block the space on either end?(much like the ones that Nyle has to come down on the top of the load) Is that what you mean by a baffle?

Please let me know if I'm off track.

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Mark M

Hi Paul

Did you check Baileys? They sell this kiln for $3995 which is a little cheaper. I have been looking at the smaller Nyle unit the L50 which isn't much cheaper at $3200 but it does run off 110 instead of 220. I figured with 110 I can always plug it into the neighbors outside outlet when he isn't here  :D

Does anyone know the chamber size and how much wood the L50 can dry per load? I ordered the plans but they haven't arrived.

Mark

Paul_H

Mark,
I like your "include the neighbours" business plan. :D

I think I'll check out Baileys as well.The Nyle is $600 cheaper than WM's DH4000,but I don't know if there is more included with WM.There is a dealer close to my brother's place,so shipping with Woodmizer would be nil.

Thanks
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Brian_Bailey

Paul -

   If it was me,  I would avoid a double stack in this small of a kiln esp. 2)  8' wide ones unless you have reversing fans.

   When I first set my kiln up, I was doing 2)  3' wide stacks side by side and I found that there wet spots in the inner stack. No reversing fans.  Now I do a single 4' wide stack and get a uniform MC through out.  Been thinking of going to a 5' wide stack, but, then I would have to cut longer stickers and add another fan.

  Don't skimp on the baffling,  you need to get all the air to flow through the lumber stack.
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Frank_Pender

Paul and Brian

   The reason I am doing and I am planning is that In the unit I now use, The Ebac 300 is no way can remove all of the moisture that is produced at any one time.  I do not want that to occur as the hot steam is retained in the kil and helps in the drying process.  The same would hold true with the 3000 unit.  I will not have exhaust fans in the kil as I do not have them now.  The heat souce is not the DH unit.  It is my Taylor hotwater unit with a heat exchanger.   With this system I can raise the temp in the kil up to and above 165*.  This is to make sure that no "homesteaders" have taken up house keeping  in the wood.   ;D

  Yes, Paul, it is a large space.  I am beginning to have requests for drying that require a large area than what my 24' modified refer trailer can handle. 8) :'(
Frank Pender

Paul_H

Thanks Brian,that makes sense.If the chamber was 10'x 22',end loaded,would the two fans included with the kit handle it.Or should more be added?

Mark,
I checked out Bailey's kiln.Identical,but $900 cdn cheaper.I don't know what shipping will be,I won't be able to call till tomorrow.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Brian_Bailey

Paul -  
             My chamber is 10' w x 8' h x 17' long.  On a full charge ( lumber stack 4' w x 6' h x 16' L )  2 fans are not sufficent enough to provide an air flow through the entire stack of 200 to 400 feet/min.  I rarely dry a full load, so by using baffles on the DH side of the stack,  I can get a good air flow  through the stack to get the job done.  I really should install 2 more fans, it's just something I don't get around to if you know what I mean  :).

On a 22' run I would install 4 or 5  24" fans and wire them individually so you can turn them on / off as needed.


Frank -  
                My comment on chamber size was ment for those small DH systems.  Looks like your system is more technical than these units.  
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Paul_H

Frank,
Sorry,I missed your last post.We must have both been typing at the same time,only I use two fingers so I don't wear out the other ones.

I'm glad to hear that you are busy enough that you need to expand the kiln division.Do you dry much in the way of Doug Fir,or is it mostly Oak and Cherry etc ?

Brian,
I know exactly what you mean about round tuits ;DIt sounds like I should look into adding the fans right off the bat and save myself some grief.
Can the wood be stacked and stickered at the mill,then place it on the cart at the kiln,or is there problems that arise?
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Frank_Pender

Paul, I know not all of your questions were directed to me.  However, as to the stickering issue, I sticker mine right off the mill.  I found it saves me whole "whacks" of time.  As to the Fir, I have not dried any to this time.  I have been running th kil for almost 3 years.  

  Brian, thank you for the comment on being technical.  But, I am far from that term.  What I have done is simply taken and listened and watched what others have tried and done.  I then have filtered their behavior and created my own system of thought action and deed.  

 Yes, Paul I have primarely stayed with drying hardwoods.  I even mix the species and have been haveing much success.  I believe, from my experiences, that the bulk of the key in drying the woods that I have dried has been in makeing sure they have air dried for an adequate time.  For our Oak, I like to let it dry for at least 60 days for 5/4 and for any thicker for at least 90 days.  I also keep a lid on the material while air drying and in a heavy stand of 70 year old timber.  The shade, plus the moisture that the warm summers forces from the trees makes for an ideal situation for air drying, in my opinion.
Frank Pender

Frank_Pender

Woops!  Paul, I would suggest that you locate a number of electical outlets throughout the kil chamber.  In this way you can adjust your fan location based on your volume of lumber and size of the stacks.  That is what I have done in the trailer. I located 14 different plugs to  3 different circuits, as to not overload any one breaker.  Everything with electricity is no more than a 110v capacity.  For this unit I have 5 individual 24" fans plus the heat exchanger is operating with a 24" fan.
Frank Pender

Brian_Bailey

I agree with Frank,  get the lumber on sticks asp.  

I don't have much experience in drying softwoods, but with hardwoods I like to air dry till the lumber is down to around its fiber saturation point ( approx. 30 % ) before it goes into the kiln.  Casehardening doesn't seem to be a problem with this method.  Going dead green into the kiln will most likely require a conditioning treatment at the end, which is hard to do properly without special equipment in a small DH system.

If you place outlets in the kiln chamber make sure that they're postioned & enclosed in a way that moisture can't short them out.  I almost lost my kiln from an electrical fire started in an outlet.  The outlet was enclosed in a weather proof box  :o.  
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Paul_H

Frank and Brian,
Thanks for the information,I'm starting to get a clearer picture of what we're getting into.

It will really help us if we can sticker at the mill.We have a few lifts air drying from last fall,and you've answered one of my next questions regarding green vs air dried.

Please keep the suggestions coming!
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Mark M

Hi Paul

I found out that Timberking also sells the Nyle kilns. I know Baileys is cheaper than the price Nyle has listed on their website, I am hoping Timberking will be too. I'm still waiting for info.

Mark

Paul_H

Mark,
I tried to phone Bailey's before work this morning,kept getting a recorded message.Then I remembered it was a holiday down South :-/
I'll try tomorrow and see what the difference will be after duties and shipping.I didn't realize that Baileys was out of California.Maybe Frank will smuggle it over for me 8)

I was also wondering if WM would be the way to go, because of service that may be needed down the road?
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Mark M

I was wondering about that too. I'm going to call Nyle tomorrow and ask them if they are still able to help if we buy it from one of their "dealers". I'm also going to call TimberKing and see what they have to say. I sure would like to get the bigger modle but I don't have a good place to plug it in where we live now.


Neil_B

Paul,
Just got my Bailey's Canada catalogue yesterday. When you phone them, double check to see if they include fans with the kit. There is no mention of them in the cat, just the controler. May be why it's cheaper than from Nyle cause I'm pretty sure they include 1 or 2 fans with the kit, depending on the size.

Neil
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

Paul_H

I phoned Bailey's this morning,and it turns out that for me it will cost the same as Woodmizers DH4000.The reason being is that they are using an exchange rate of  60 cents on the dollar. >:( I phoned WM and asked if I could pay in US funds and would it be any cheaper? The answer was NO!

According to WM,they have a superior system of controlling heat and humidity than Bailey's offer.So I said please order me a DH4000 and send plans for it,because we're already laying down a foundation. 8)
They had the plans spitting out the fax machine within minutes.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Frank_Pender

Well, Paul, what is the first species you are going to run into the kil?   Hardwoods or softwoods?  Make sure you let it air dry for at least a month, stickered with 1" stickers, before you place it in the kil. But, I do not know what is recommeneded with these store bought units.   Good luck on the first charge into the kil. 8)
  Oh, by the way, I'll bet you are a little lighter in the pockets in the next few weeks. ;D
Frank Pender

Paul_H

Frank,
Yep,they're lighter alright :-/ but I hope it will change.There are no other kilns in the area and we've had a couple of builders show interest already.

The first couple of charges will be VG Fir.Then I want to mess around with some Birch logs we have up at the mill.

Be prepared for lots of questions in the next few months! ;)

Thanks
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Frank_Pender

Go for it, Paul.  Ask away. :P
Frank Pender

Neil_B

Paul, did you phone Bailey's Canada? I think they are located in Toronto. $295 shipping anywhere in Canada on that unit.
Also did you ask about the fans? I may go with Baileys if they offer all the same stuff as Nyle's kit just because of that darn exchange rate. Speaking of which, how can they give you .60 on the dollar when our dollar is up?? :(
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

Brian_Bailey

Paul  -   I'm curious in WM's claim to a superior system on controlling heat and humidity?  These kilns are very basic, you have 3 controls which are, an on/off switch, a controller to raise / lower temp.(heat in chamber), and one to control the compressor run time (humidity in chamber). That's it.  Very elemental, easy to operate!  Did they give you any details on what makes their system better? They don't give much info. in their on-line adv.
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Paul_H

New_sawyer,
I didn't have much success finding Bailey's Canada online.It was Bailey's that had the haywire exchange rate,but their kit does include the 2  16" fans.
No matter how I sliced it,by the time the smoke cleared WM and Bailey's came within around $100 of each other.I ended up putting a deposit down with WM,mostly because of their reputation for service.

Brian,
Gary at Woodmizer in Salmon Arm,BC,explained to me that the controls are simpler and better,but I admit that I can't recall the reason.I will e-mail him this morning and post his response tonight if I receive it.
The  deposit is refundable,so I'll dig a little deeper.

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Mark M

I contacted Nyle and asked them if there was a difference between the Bailey, Wood-Mizer, and Timberking models. This is their reply:

"We make all of them, they are basically the same product. The only difference is the Wood-Mizer DH4000 unit has a humidistat control rather than a compressor timer control."

I don't know much about this but I can see where this would be an advantage. I think I'll probably go for the Wood-Mizer unit as well.

Mark

OneWithWood

Hi all, sorry to come in late onthis thread but I was taking in a Blues Festival over the weekend in Santa Cruz.  They did not have e-mail stations at the festival - go figure :D

I have a WM DK4000.  The difference is the controls.  The WM controls are Honeywell and in my opinion are better constructed.  I have yet to build my chamber but I am planning a 12x17x10 chamber with rails for carts and doors on each end.  I am sizing the carts so I can load two stacks of 8' lumber side by side.  The kit comes with two fans and I will be building folding panels for the top and sides of the loads so I can vary the load when needed.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Paul_H

I received an email from Gary at WM in BC today.He said pretty much what Mark and OWW have said,it makes things simpler.Seeing that I don't know much about kilns,simple is a good thing. ;D

The unit should be here by June 11,I'm hoping the chamber will be ready.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Brian_Bailey

I just checked the manual for Nyle's L-200.  They show a Humidistat control as an option.  It also says that this control requires periodic calibration, and a hygrometer should also be purchased for use in calibration and monitoring the accuracy of the humidistat.

This sounds alot more complex than a compressor timer.  The whole object is to control the amount of water removed / day.  A compressor timer does this with ease and does not need any calibration.  Why make something more complex that it needs to be.  Just my opinion.    
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Paul_H

Brian,
The more input in this the better.It's all given me alot to think about,and more studying to do before I fire it up.

Thanks.

My head hurts. ???
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

DanG

Paul, you ain't gonna draw the water outta the wood with blood pressure. Just put the thing together and follow the instructions. Go easy on the heat for the first few days and you won't hurt anything. You'll get the hang of it in no time. :)
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

biziedizie

  We built a million dollar mushroom barn for a guy that grows mushrooms that are worth about $100.00 to $200.00 for each mushroom. He sells these things world wide and paid me to take a course to learn all about ventilation and static controls and humidity.
  I was taught how to keep air flowing and how to keep the air at the right temperature and how to keep the humidity at the right level. It's kinda backwards compared to drying wood as we had to keep the water in the rooms and not have it flow out the static vents.
  All the controls were high end and in my opinion that's the way to go as you wouldn't want something malfunctioning in the middle of the night.
  Overall I spent 3 years off and on this job and it was very interesting learning all the different ways of how humidity works and things like that.
  Hmmmm now that I think about it maybe with my solar kiln plans and my knowledge maybe I should build one.

    Steve

Fla._Deadheader

With all that knowledge, add LOTS of fertilizer and grow them toadstools big, dog 'em down and sell them -pre sliced.?? ::) :) :)
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Brian_Bailey

 I'm sorry if I have caused anyone any confusion over the controller.  

 Paul stated that WM offers a superior controller than what Nyle (who builds the kiln) offers.  This got my interest up.  

 I've been running a Nyle L-150 for over a decade, 13 yrs.actually, and the compressor timer has worked without fault. These low temp.DH kilns are extremely easy to operate. It is almost impossible to ruin the lumber you're drying in them if you follow the recommended schedules.  

 Once you have dried a few loads of lumber and are familiar with the principles involved you can start increasing the water removal rate to near the maximum allowed before degrade becomes a factor.  This is important if you are trying to maximize the turn-over time of your kiln ( more loads / yr.) which translates more income.  

 A compressor timer allows this to be done without the worry of something going out of calibration and giving you a false reading, which could cause problems when pushing the envelope so to speak.

 These low temp. systems are designed to run between 90 - 120 degrees F., so heat is not much of a factor unless your putting dead green lumber into the kiln and that's for hard to dry species like oak.  The critical issue is the amount of water you remove / day and that is done with the compressor.

 I'm not knocking WM's system, but I wonder why the designer & manufacturer of these kilns does not put this superior controller on their units?  As always, just curious  :)
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

biziedizie

Harold if there was the money in it today as there was 10 years ago I would be growing mushrooms in every room in my shack. I think that on todays market these mushrooms are getting about $45.00 a pound which is good but not really worth it with all the headaches.
  Last time I was on the island I dropped by the farm and only one room was growing and the others were empty. I guess his pipe dreams of getting rich went down the drain, kinda thought they would.

   Steve

Paul_H

DanG,
That is good advice.I'm not really fretting too much about it yet.I'm waiting on the insulation for the floor,and want to have the walls ready to put up.Just like a kid at Christmas 8)

Brian,
You haven't caused any confusion,in fact you've shed some light on a subject that I knew nothing about.Anybody considering building a kiln will benefit from the knowledge and experience that has been posted by you and other members.Please keep it coming!

Steve,
When you get them sliced and diced,we can dry them up here ;)  
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Neil_B

I was beginning to consider the humidistat myself until you mentioned the advantages Brian. I'm considering going with the 300 for mine and think I will stick with the timer controls. Sounds like less of a headache. If I remember correctly, Nyle priced the 300 kit at around 10000 Can and I think Bailey's and WM's are the smaller kits but will look into further to compare more prices.
Glad you brought this up Paul, very informative as always on this forum. :)
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

Brian_Bailey

New_ Sawyer  -  

I don't know much about the L-300 as it is a Hi - Temp. system. I do know from reading what others have said about their kiln operations that with Hi - Temp. you need to stay alert and follow the established schedules or you'll have alot of sticker material in short order.  

I see on Nyle's site that a L-300  is $11,695 US.  I was wondering if 2 L-200's @ $4,295 US or less from someone else would be just as good.  You'd get almost the same drying capacity as the 300 with less hassles unless you need the faster drying rate of a Hi- temp. system. Just a thought.

Paul -

 Don't let my ramblings deter you from getting the WM.  It will meet all your expectations, I'm sure.  I just thought that maybe WM had come up with a better mouse trap in the controller design.  IMO they haven't, enough said.  Get that chamber built, the 11th will be here before you know it.     
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Neil_B

That may be a good thought with the 2 200's. I also got my specs mixed up a bit. The 300 was almost 15000 Can but I can save a bit of money as I don't need the heater, just a coil in the unit. Although I don't think it made it a whole lot cheaper.
With the high temp system, doesn't it just mean that they can operate at a higher temp. I can still run at 120 deg with the 300 but I can go up to 160 for case hardening and bug kill. Correct?? I'm assuming that the 50 and 200 can't handle the extra heat like the larger units can over time.
Another reason to choose the 300 though, would then be the fact that when pallet companies are forced to heat treat their hardwood as well as the softwood ( supposed to be in effect 2004), I would be able to crank the heat up to 150 or 160 for the time it takes to treat. ( I do a bit of cut to length stock for a company right now and have to consider this if I continue on with it)
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

Paul_H

I have another question for you all.What is a reasonable sealant for the kiln? I can't find Lion Al-Kote that Nyle recomends,but I found another Aluminum type coating that does around 50 sq ft per gallon at around $90(I was told offhand,still waiting for confirmation) cdn per gallon :o
I need to cover 900 sq ft.

Another option is aluminum sheeting at $ 1.30 sq ft cdn.

Insulation,
Rigid foam or fibreglass pink?

New Sawyer,
The little unit I'm getting will take the temp up to 160 F to set pitch.Is that what you are after?
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Brian_Bailey

Paul -

 I went cheap and used Alum. roof coating for mobile homes to seal the chamber.  Works for me.

 Insulation, don't use fiberglass!!!  Go with rigid (not the white stuff) and use plenty of it.  You will be glad you did if you're going to run the kiln in the winter.

New_Sawyer -  

The compressor in my L-150 doesn't like temps much higher than 120 F.  I shut it off when I take the temp. to 140 F.  The L-200 is more tolerant of higher temps. but I would still play it safe and turn off the compressor when going to a higher temp. esp. 160 degrees.  This leads to another ?, are the circulation fan motors rated to run in temps. exceeding 150 degrees??

If you look at the Hi - Temp DH kilns you'll notice that only the condensation coils are actually in the chamber.  The compressor and controller are outside of the chamber. That is how they can operate at such a high temp.

Concerning raising the temp. to kill little beasties,  I would think that an aux. heater in a L- 200 would be a heck of a lot cheaper than a $15000 L-300 being run as a L-200.  Just my opinion again though  :D .
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Paul_H

Brian,
Should I not use fibreglass because of possible moisture through the walls? The 6'' pink fibreglass has a R-20 value,so I had thought about using it because if the chamber is tight nothing would pass through.

I priced rigid at $2300 for double sheets of 2" in the walls.Fibreglass was $800 and change.

The Alum. roof coating that you used,is it quite "watery" or is it thick like porrige? The thin stuff is definitely cheaper.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

biziedizie

Paul whoever gave you that price on rigid is making some good coin! Rigid should cost about $200.00 more then the pink stuff.
  The rule of thumb is that the pink stuff is better above ground and the blue stuff (rigid) is better below ground like on concrete walls.
  If you seal the poly properly you will have no problems with the pink stuff. For every doorway and window and receptacle make sure you glue the poly down so there's no moisture problems.
  The R value of the pink stuff is better then the blue stuff and the air circulation is far by best. When we were building barns that would have temperatures that would range from outside temps to full blown temps we would use the pink stuff as it would dissipate the moister faster.
  As far as the interior sealing what are you sheeting it with? Are you going with 1/2" ply or osb or what? Is it going to be interior or exterior grade ply?
  I think a few posts back there was a mention of installing poly under the joists, k that's a great idea but make sure it's the perforated stuff of you will have major problems!
  Hope this helps!

      Steve
  

Paul_H

Steve,
I was also quoted $3.06 a sq ft for full 4" rigid.Maybe they saw me coming :D Where would be a good place in town to price some out? I have about 900 sq ft in total that will need R 20 or better.
I'm not sure about the plywood yet.Will construction grade handle the heat?(160 F).The specs call for marine grade.The Home Hardware store is pricing out different options and will make a few calls to find out about a proper sealer.There is an outfit in Delta that makes a Aluminum kiln coating and I've got two different stores calling the same place for me tomorrow(small world :D )

I layed poly on the ground under the joists,but the joists are 10" off of the ground and will have good air flow.The specs call for poly between the insulation and the plywood on the inside of the chamber.

Thanks ,it all helps.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Frank_Pender

I sure missed the cruise ship or something.  :-/ If I had spent $15,000 on a kiln I would have had it used for my creamtorium, like Sam Magee's friend did for him. :-[   The wife would have stuffed me in the thing and torched it herself.  :'(  I simply took a 24' refer trailer and reinsolated the thing with 4" pink and resheeted with paper coated fiber boards (4' x 8')  The sheeting is the same cheeeep material that is often used of manufactured homes in this part of the country.   I used it because I could get if for $6 a sheet.  ;D  Now, I know Ihave some heat loss with this unit, but my heat is cheap, wood in a Taylor hotwater stove and a heat exchanger.  Total cost for everything was no more than $3,800 and I can still use the stove for other heat purposes, if so desired. 8)  The lumber is turning out great to boot.  I only wish that I could get a good deal on some more trailers. :-/
Frank Pender

Paul_H

Close the door,it's cold 8)

That was a great poem,I've got a Robert Service collection around here somewhere.

Frank,
I hear you.I was half fast looking for a reefer like that but then thought,I've got the lumber so why not use some of it.Can you tow your kiln up here so I can have a look? ;)
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Frank_Pender

That sounds like some of that good ol' English humor I am use to dissing out to people, myself.   Sure I can toe it up there.   :D Then What?  ??? You would have me leave it there for the season, ya right?  :o It would not pass the inspection stations along the way.  I have one not more than ten miles away. That  is about as far as I would get the thing.  It is better you come here.  You have already lost the planer to Loren. 8) (Oregon_Sawyer) You had better get down here before I lose something you you might have to take back home, duty free. We could classify it as a gift from your Southern neighbor.   ;D 8) 8) 8) 8)
  Besides  what are you doing up so late?
Frank Pender

Paul_H

I've got a "town" day tomorrow so I'm not out of here till 9:00 am.It sounds like the planer has found a good home,and it's close enough for you to check up on,maybe put some wood through it.

If we make a Motorhome trip this Summer,both Carla,and our son Tom want to head down your way and drive the coast.

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Neil_B

Hey Paul, did you look into that Roxol insulation? The stuff that is made out of rock wool. It's supposed to be excellent stuff and able to handle moisture, if any, without degrade. I'm considering using it and it's usually not a whole lot more expensive than pink but still cheaper than foam comparing R values.

The other reason I'm looking at the 300, Brian, is I'm planning on 6000 to 8000 bdft per load. I should have mentioned that earlier. The 200 would probably do it but would have to run constantly and therefore burn out quicker?? It's a good thought to turn the unit off when going to the higher temp as you wouldn't really need it running anyway, would you.
May still consider 2, 200s then if that's all I have to do when heat treating.
As far as the interior, could one call someone like Alcan to get some kind of lining. I think they make most of that aluminum sheeting anyway. What about 50 tubes of aluminum foil?? ;D
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

Brian_Bailey

Paul  -  

Nyle doesn't recommend fiberglass for insulation because it loses its R value if moisture gets into it.  I've used both and believe me the rigid ( I used blue Dow board) is far superior. If you're seriously considering running the kiln year round go with the rigid insulation!  

I used 3/8" cdx plywood with 6 mil plastic vapor barrier between the plywood & insulation.  The plywood was attached to the studs with stainless screws.  In 13 yrs. I have coated the plywood twice with the mobile home tar.  It must do something as I have had no delaminations due to moisture.
The first coat was with the thin stuff,  the 2nd was with the porridge stuff.  I prefer the thin as it gets into the crevices better.

New_Sawyer -  

Sounds like the L-300 should do you well at that production level.  
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Paul_H







The kiln chamber is coming right along,but I don't think we will make June 11th :) Things are going well though and we will finish back framing and hopefully some wiring tomorrow.

The tin for the roof  will be here Monday.

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Brian_Bailey

Looking Good, Paul !    8) 8)
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

biziedizie

Very nice looking work Paul, I like the way the floor is laid out. I should be up in the next few weeks. Will the kiln be done by then?

   Steve

hawby

Paul_H,

How's the kiln coming? I called WM yesterday to order my DH4000. They had told me a couple of months ago that they keep 'em in stock. Guess what? That's unless I order one, then they are out of stock. Was a little putoff by the lack of phone skills as well.

Can somebody shoot me the Bailey's website? I had it, but then it got lost. I tried www.baileys.com, but they just recommended safe driving, while drinking :D

I told WM to put my name on one of the four that supposedly are coming next week, but... as I said, the phone skills... and the promise to call right back....some 4 hours later, after I had left work... kinda gave me a sour taste.

Also, if I remember right Bailey's was running a special on shipping and the moisture meter. WM wasn't talking any deals, or as far as I was concerned, weren't talking. Compared to the Service Dept. at WM, well, let's just say, I am glad I bought used. I wouldn't have wanted this guy to get a commission on what I wpuld have had to pay. Guess customer relations aren't important in this booming economy  :( >:( ??? :-/  On the other hand, the service guys are real easy to talk with and are very helpful and conversational. ( I actually had to say, "Hello" again after 25 secs of silence at the beginning of the call. As my teens say, "Whassup with that?)

Now that I have vented.... Does anyone know what type of sensor the humidistat is using. If it is a polymer film type, Brian is absolutely correct. Calibration will shift over time, especially being exposed to outgassing from the lumber. The sensor would also require replacement on a periodic basis.

SO, if any of you happen to know that answer, "Thanks!"

Sorry to dump.... been hot, tired, overworked, under-appreciated, and had to deal with a , "used car salesman!" I'll get over it.

hawby

So anyway, let's just say
Hawby

Missin' loggin', but luvin' the steady check...

Neil_B

Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

hawby

Thanks New_Sawyer. I actually found it once the blood flow slowed a little. Just kinda grinds me a little wrong. Don't wanna rag WM to much, cause I know they are a good company, but I'll tell ya, I don't care much for rudeness, especially in a salesperson.

Bailey's is $132.95 cheaper. That's delivered to my site. Gotta go to Indy to get it at the price they quoted, ( I guess. Ol tightlips didn't say. I just told him I could go to Indy if it was worth my while.) Gonna call 'em in the morning to see when they would be able to deliver. Moisture meter included in both quotes. Don't know about service, but ya know, I can't imagine that there is gonna be a lot to it.

My reefer is gonna be here early next week, so I'd like to get it ASAP. Ready to dry some wood  8)

hawby
Hawby

Missin' loggin', but luvin' the steady check...

Norm

I bought my kiln direct from Nyle, nice guys to work with, give em a call. www.nyle.com

hawby

Thanks Norm, but they are $300 higher. That'll go a long ways toward my wiring costs.

But its nice to know they are nice to work with if the need arises.

Golly Bailey's must by large quantities to discount it so much.

hawby
Hawby

Missin' loggin', but luvin' the steady check...

Brian_Bailey

hawby -  The unit is made by Nyle, so you shouldn't have any problems getting parts right from Nyle. Give them a call if you need any info. -  good folks to deal with.

I'd like to pass this along.  

If you've been running your DH kiln for a while.  It might pay to have a refridgeration mechanic check your system for leaks or do it yourself if you know how.  

Mine delevoped a slow leak around a couple of fittings.  It was so slow that I did not notice that it was taking longer to dry a load of lumber. I was keeping records, but I wasn't paying much attention to them  :-[ . Does that make sence?  I had the system recharged and what a difference it made.  The mechanic said it would be a good idea to check it once a year.

Paul H  -  Yeah,  how about an update?    
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Paul_H

I keep records too,but I don't know where I put them ???


The kiln chamber has been coming along pretty well.But I can only work on it after work and on Saturdays,so it has slowed down.The roof is on,most of the exterior plywood,all insulated& polyed and sheeted inside.The unit is sitting in a box waiting to be installed,but first I have to put on the kiln coating.
I will have most of next week to work on it so it should be much closer to being up and running.I'll take some more pics and post them in a couple of days.

Hawby,
It sounds like you found a weak link at WM(theres always one :-/) I had better luck with all the different companies I talked to regarding the kiln and WM has been good for following up.
I always figured a nice feature to have on a phone would be a button that would deliver an electric shock to the offending party.Of course that could work both ways ;D
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

Norm

Geez you'd think if ya bought direct they would be cheaper than who they sell to. When I bought mine WM wasn't selling em yet and I hadn't heard of Baileys. Sounds like you found the best deal out there. I will say that Nyle is real nice to work with if you have any questions no matter who you buy it from. Good luck.

Neil_B

Hawby, from my latest experience, I have found that it's not always a good idea to go the "cheaper" route especially if it may sacrifice the service end of things. You could easily lose that $300 while waiting for someone that's not service oriented to come up with a solution if a problem arises.
Does Baileys themselves troubleshoot and service this kiln unit or would you have to wait for them to get ahold of someone at Nyle?? With not buying directly from Nyle, will they still help you out if you called them directly instead of going through Bailey?? May be something to check into before making the purchase.
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

hawby

Well. I did it. Called Bailey's when California opened up today. (They sleep late, it was 10 AM EST :D)

Talked with Nick Bailey there, one of THE Bailey's I take it. Great help, lots of friendly advice. Called the factory to see how quick they could get one ot me. Ships Monday. Free moisture meter. They are out of stock on them, so I went ahead and ordered one of the micro pin-type ones as well.

Totaling it all up, I save $200 AND got it shipped. NOW, that may be due to the controller package, but that does not concern me. I don't have any spec sheets to base my opinion on, but technically, I am thinking that I like the time based controller better than the humidistat.

Humidity calibration is expensive and needs to be performed often. For critical processes in our pharmaceutical plant, we calibrate every three months. To do a calibration with an accuracy of ± 2.0 %RH takes about three hours. That's on a $40, 000 instrument for a standard.

I will check the calibration of the two different meters after I get them and report back to you guys about the results. I won't be able to check them below 10%RH as that is a $60,000 instrument we don't have. I may be able to borrow something though that would give me some confidence in their accuracy. (Or, I have a good friend that owns the company that builds the standard instruments, maybe he'll do me a favor ;))

Anyway, we're on course in the business plan. Now if it just wasn't 90°F and 90 %RH outside :-/

hawby

PS: I phoned WM and told the salesguy to take my name off the list.
Hawby

Missin' loggin', but luvin' the steady check...

Furby

Hawby, I know what you mean about the 90/90, whew!!!!!!!!

Brian_Bailey

hawby -  I use the oven dry method to check my meters.  An accurate scale and a microwave oven with a turn table to dry your wood samples in, will let you know if your meters are giving an accurate reading.  Some species need to have a corrective factor added to the meter reading.  Just remember that electric moisture meters aren't ment for wood over 30% MC.
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

hawby

Brian,

Thanks. I'll give that a try as well. Over the past 13 years of doing humidity calibrations, I have just found that there is considerable inaccuracy, even in NEW meters. We have a major global manufacturer that consistantly is off by 3-5%.
For an extra $200 they will calibrate them correctly  :-/

I am looking forward to doing some testing.... and some wood drying.

Nick Bailey did tell me that I actually have two chambers. He said I should divide my reefer in half. What do you guys think? Its a 28 footer. He said that by using just 14' it would dry a lot faster. Makes sense to me.

What size chambers are some of you using that have the same unit?

hawby
Hawby

Missin' loggin', but luvin' the steady check...

Brian_Bailey

Fourteen feet isn't going to work if you're looking to dry sixteen footers  :D :D.  

Nick is right.  The smaller the chamber, the more efficent the kiln will be.  

Just keep in mind that the compressor is 2 hp. and the rule of thumb is 1mbf / hp.  You certainly can dry more than 2mbf / charge, but your drying rate will suffer and this could cause problems with a species that should be dried as fast as possible, such as maple.

If I was you, I'd make up some moveable baffles and adjust the chamber size to fit the lenghts that you're working with. Build you pile in height rather than lenght.

The meters that I use measure the electrical resistance of the wood between the probes,  so humidity isn't much of a factor.
WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

hawby

Brian,

Thanks on both issues. Moveable walls would make sense and would help in keeping my 16' boards from becoming 2 - 8 footers  ;D

Electrical resistance - makes sense as each species will have different cellular makeup and a different resistance for the same moisture content. Resistance is also a FUNDAMENTAL parameter and can easily be referenced. As long as the mfr. provides some values for calibration of zero and span. Good I am relaxing a little on that count.

I am still thinking that down.... ok, way down the road, I would like to get another unit to use in the second chamber.OR I could always dry some 28 footers  :o

hawby
Hawby

Missin' loggin', but luvin' the steady check...

Furby

Let me know when you are gonna cut them 28 footers. :o I'll make sure I already have plans! ;D :D :D :D

Fla._Deadheader

I've been readin and studyin the plans and brochures for a solar kiln, all weekend.
  Question; The directions state that, water will condense on the inside walls. Is it necessary to have a way to channel this excess moisture away from the walls and floor?  I have to build off the ground, with a complete frame construction, including the floor. Anything I really need to pay close attention to??  This project will take a few weekends, so, don't expect pics very often. What I really need is "Tech Support". ::) ::) ;D :D :D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Furby

"Tech Support"? Looks like you are at the right place! ;)

shopteacher

FDH,
   Where did you get the solar kiln plans from?  Been looking at several different web sites at solar kilns, but haven't made up my mind as to which appears to be the best setup. Any thoughts?
Proud owner of a LT40HDSE25, Corley Circle mill, JD 450C, JD 8875, MF 1240E
Tilt Bed Truck  and well equipted wood shop.

Fla._Deadheader

The "Illustrious Potentate, Mr. Biziedizie" sent me a copy. ;D
  Sneak over the fence, to the Woodweb, and search the knowledge base, under Solar kiln. Dr.? Wengert has them posted. They are the ones that I have, I think??
  I also have a Brochure from Woodmizer.
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

biziedizie

I'm a what??? :D :D :D :D :D I can't even pronounce them words. :D :D :D :D
  
  Deadheader it seems that your way ahead of me in the kiln building. 8)
  I'm still looking for a good spot to build it. Maybe I will put it on skids and tow it around till I find a good spot for it. :D

    Steve

Fla._Deadheader

Yeah, I'm WAAAAYY ahead. I got my spot picked out !!!!! ::) ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

Neil_B

Bizie, If you leave it on the skids you can classify it as portable and won't need a building permit ;D
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

biziedizie

Fla_
  I just can't decide where to put this thing ??? I want it close to the mill but there's not enough room with all the logging trucks coming and going. ;D I think what I'll do is do what I always do when I have a tough matter to decide on, I will ask my little boy. 8)

New_Sawyer
  Building permit??? What's a building permit. :D :D :D
  Oh yeah that's one of those things that I should've obtained when I built the workshop, the deck, the saw shed, the addition that I put on the house, the deck and carport on the parents house. :o
  It will look real good explaining to the bylaw officer about not having permits when I own a construction company and pull permits all the time. :D :D


  Steve

Neil_B

bizie, bizie, bizie. Didn't you know? ??? Just remember that when you get a raise in your property tax that you don't ask for a re-assessment :o ;). A friend down the road from me had mentioned not getting a permit for his workshop, and a few sheds and a few minutes later were talking about taxes and he thought about getting re assessed. Mentioned it may be a good idea to just pay the tax ;D

Why worry about log trucks when you can just pull it out of their way :D
Timberwolf / TimberPro sawmill, Woodmizer edger, both with Kubota diesels. '92 Massey Ferguson 50H backhoe, '92 Ford F450 with 14' dump/ flatbed and of course an '88 GMC 3500 pickup.

Joe_Beaulieu

A couple of clarifications on the Nyle L200 Dry Kiln:

The drying capacity of the unit varies with the allowable drying rate of the species being dried.  The unit can handle up to 4000 bf of a green, slow drying species such as red oak(max MC loss/day of 3.8%).  On a species such as black spruce (max MC loss/day of 20%) the load would be limited to about 1000 bf.  

It is recommended that additional fans be installed in chambers over 17' in length.

The refrigeration system is not designed to operate at temperatures over 120 degrees F.  Pitch can be set in pine by first drying the load to the target MC and then shutting off the compressor prior to turning the heat up to 160.  

Please feel free to contact me with any additional questions

OneWithWood

Hello, Joe and welcome to the forum!

I was thinking of enlarging my soon-to-be-built chamber to handle the occasional 20' boards.  I thought I could limit the capacity for shorter loads  (usually 16'-17') by employing baffles.  I have two fans that came with the kiln.  Should I add a third fan and if so, should I run it all the time or only when drying the longer wood?  I will be drying red and white oak, ash, maple and beech mostly.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Joe_Beaulieu

If you want to dry 20' lumber you need an additional fan.  The base unit was set up for 16' lumber.  I would wire the additional fan to a remote switch rather than the controller so that it could be shut off when drying shorter lengths.  You have the right idea w/the baffles.

Paul_H

It's been awhile but the kiln is finally ready to go.The last thing to do was seal the doors,and I had a retired carpenter help me do it properly.

I'm loading about 1800 bf of 1x8 D fir that will be flooring.I got the lumber from another mill on a trade for less that I could mill it.It is random length from 10' - 20' and am cutting it on a chop saw at 12 & 14' lengths,and trimming both ends so there is no grit that might screw up the planer.











I used backlight on some pics because the chamber is black,but it has alot of glare.



A shot of the fan,and fan truss.





We put aluminum around the doors with stainless steel nails to cover the joints between the plywood and the 1" foam insulation.It was gooped well with tar before getting slapped into place.The doors and walls are 8" thick.

Will post a few more later.

Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

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