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Author Topic: Hercules winch oil?  (Read 1853 times)

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Offline mobile demensia

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Hercules winch oil?
« on: August 24, 2012, 12:34:34 pm »
I am having some trouble finding the right oil for my HERC in a 230d. When I use the #'s in the manual the salesperson at the auto parts store starts to drool and their eyes gloss over. Any help is appretiated, thanks.

MD
Timberjack 230D
Mobile Dimension 127
Woodcraft 30-20a
2 Stihl 660's
and growing

Offline lumberjack48

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2012, 01:15:30 pm »
Go where they sell oil, like Fleet Farm, L & M, Midland they have the books to look up what it uses for oil.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Offline mobile demensia

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2012, 02:14:28 pm »
I found a shell # that worked, I have to buy a pail of it though. I was hoping for  a source for 1 gallon
Timberjack 230D
Mobile Dimension 127
Woodcraft 30-20a
2 Stihl 660's
and growing

Offline lumberjack48

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2012, 02:21:32 pm »
What oil does it use ?
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Offline bushmechanic

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2012, 04:25:34 pm »
All I ever used is 80W-90 gear oil.

Offline Neilo

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2012, 08:28:31 pm »
Hi MD,

I am looking for this oil too, having just got a 230D. My digging has shown it MUST have an oil suitable for yellow metal worm drives. The ones I have come up with are:

Phillips66 - Compounded Gear Oil 460 (OEM fill)
Mobil - 600W Super Cylinder Oil 460
Castrol - Alpha SP 320
Shell - Omala S4 WE 460 (synthetic $$$)

The Phillips isn't in Aus so I am going with the Mobil, seems an OK price but I have to get 20L for the 1.8L capacity. If you are looking at others, check the corrosion rating (1a is the best) as a poor result will mean the bronze gear will be eaten away by the oil.

Neilo

Offline lumberjack48

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2012, 04:28:25 pm »
I would run synthetic oil in everything, bearing life out weighs the price. With a sealed bearing i would drill a needle nose hole, then put synthetic gear lube in it, turning bearing while putting it in, when done seal bearing with silicone.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Offline poorfarm

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2012, 07:49:05 am »
80w 90 is all it needs.. when i had a leaking seal i even used bar and chain.

Offline Atlantic Trader

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2012, 11:07:55 pm »
I wanted to bring this one up again as we didnt seem to agree on what oilmshould be used in the Hercules Winch. Itbwentbfrom specialty oils to 90 gear oil to chain saw oil??

Considering how expensive the winch is to repair it seems to me that I dont want to mess around and put inthe wrong oil or an oil that will not protect the winch. I havent changed my oil yet but want to I have no idea what is in it now, and cant change it until I get some to put in.

I took the info posted above to Napa and nada , they said I should try a Shell distributor to see if they could bring it in, but he thought it would be expensive.

Iam sure there must be at least a hundred owners on here with skidders with Hercules winches can we get an idea what people are using and where they are buying it.



Offline Neilo

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2012, 01:30:29 am »
The 20L of Mobil 600W Super Cylinder Oil I purchased was about $150 here in Aus. Purchased from an oil distributor. I know this is expensive for the 1.8L needed but I wasn't going to take a chance.

Seeing as the manual specifically states never use regular gear oil, I was not going to argue with them just to save a few $ on oil, as you say given the cost of the bronze gear.

Try an internet search for yellow metal worm drive oil and there is a bit on corrosion if you use regular EP oil.

Offline Atlantic Trader

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2012, 02:32:23 am »
Thanks Neilo,
I found the following about worm gears and here lubrication, here is the cut and paste from an industrial lubrication trade magazine, it is a long but informative read.

Worm Gear
noun
 
A gear consisting of a shaft with a spiral thread that engages with and drives a toothed wheel.

The toothed wheel driven in this way.

Worm gears are an old style of gear, and a version of one of the six simple machines. Basically, a worm gear is a screw butted up against what looks like a standard spur gear with slightly angled and curved teeth. It changes the rotational movement by 90 degrees, and the plane of movement also changes due to the position of the worm on the worm wheel (or simply "the wheel"). They are typically comprised of a steel worm and a brass wheel.

Figure 1. Worm wheel. Most worms (but not all) are at the bottom.

How They Work
An electric motor or engine applies rotational power via to the worm. The worm rotates against the wheel, and the screw face pushes on the teeth of the wheel. The wheel is pushed against the load.

Why to Use Worm Gears
There area few reasons why one would choose a worm gear over a standard gear.

The first one is the high reduction ratio. A worm gear can have a massive reduction ratio with little effort - all one must do is add circumference to the wheel. Thus you can use it to either greatly increase torque or greatly reduce speed. It will typically take multiple reductions of a conventional gearset to achieve the same reduction level of a single worm gear - meaning users of worm gears have fewer moving parts and fewer places for failure.

A second reason to use a worm gear is the inability to reverse the direction of power. Because of the friction between the worm and the wheel, it is virtually impossible for a wheel with force applied to it to start the worm moving. On a standard gear, the input and output can be turned independently once enough force is applied. This necessitates adding a backstop to a standard gearbox, further increasing the complication of the gear set.

Why Not to Use Worm Gears
There is one particularly glaring reason why one would not choose a worm gear over a standard gear: lubrication. The movement between the worm and the wheel gear faces is entirely sliding. There is no rolling component to the tooth contact or interaction. This makes them relatively difficult to lubricate. The lubricants required are usually very high viscosity (ISO 320 and greater) and thus are difficult to filter, and the lubricants required are typically specialized in what they do, requiring a product to be on-site specifically for that type of equipment.

Lubrication
The main problem with a worm gear is how it transfers power. It is a boon and a curse at the same time. The spiral motion allows huge amounts of reduction in a comparatively small amount of space for what is required if a standard helical gear were used. This spiral motion also causes an incredibly problematic condition to be the primary mode of power transfer. This is commonly known as sliding friction or sliding wear.

With a typical gear set the power is transferred at the peak load point on the tooth (known as the apex or pitchline), at least in a rolling wear condition. Sliding occurs on either side of the apex, but the velocity is relatively low.

With a worm gear, sliding motion is the only transfer of power. As the worm slides across the tooth of the wheel, it slowly rubs off the lubricant film, until there is no lubricant film left, and as a result, the worm rubs at the metal of the wheel in a boundary lubrication regime. When the worm surface leaves the wheel surface, it picks up more lubricant, and starts the process over again on the next revolution.

The rolling friction on a typical gear tooth requires little in the way of lubricant film to fill in the spaces and separate the two components. Because sliding occurs on either side of the gear tooth apex, a slightly higher viscosity of lubricant than is strictly needed for rolling wear is required to overcome that load. The sliding occurs at a relatively low velocity.

The worm on a worm set gear turns, and while turning, it crushes against the load that is imposed on the wheel. The only way to prevent the worm from touching the wheel is to have a film thickness large enough to not have the entire tooth surface wiped off before that part of the worm is out of the load zone.

This scenario requires a special kind of lubricant. Not only will it will have to be a relatively high viscosity lubricant (and the higher the load or temperature, the higher the viscosity must be), it must have some way to help overcome the sliding condition present.

Viscosity
Viscosity is the major factor in preventing the worm from touching the wheel in a worm gear set. While the load and size of gearing determines the required lubricant, an ISO 460 or ISO 680 is fairly common, and an ISO 1000 is not unheard of. If you've ever tried to filter this range of viscosity, you know it is problematic because it is likely that none of the filters or pumps you have on-site will be the proper size or rating to function properly. Therefore, you would likely need to get a specific pump and filter for this type of unit. A lubricant that viscous requires a slow operating pump to prevent the lubricant from activating the filter bypass. It will also require a large surface area filter to allow the lubricant to flow through.

Lubricant Types to Look For
One lubricant type commonly used with worm gears is mineral-based, compounded gear oils. There are no additives that can be put into a lubricant that can make it overcome sliding wear indefinitely, but the natural or synthetic fatty additive combination in compounded gear oils results in good lubricity, providing an extra measure of protection from metal-to-metal contact.

Another lubricant type commonly used with worm gears is mineral-based, industrial extreme pressure (EP) gear oils. There are some problems with this type of lubricant if you are using a worm gear with a yellow metal (brass) component. However, if you have relatively low operating temperatures or no yellow metal present on the gear tooth surfaces, this lubricant works well.

Polyalphaolefin (PAO) gear lubricants work well in worm gear applications because they naturally have good lubricity properties. With a PAO gear oil, it is necessary to watch the additive package, because these can have EP additives. A standard-duty antiwear (AW) fortified gear oil will typically be acceptable, but check that the properties are compatible with most metals. The author recommends to closely watch the wear metals in oil analysis testing to make sure that the AW package isn't so reactive as to cause significant leaching from the brass. The effect should be far less than what would be seen with EP even in a worst-case scenario for AW reactivity, but it can show up in metals testing. If you need a lubricant that can handle higher- or lower-than-typical temperatures, a suitable PAO-based product is likely available.

Polyalkylene glycols (PAG), a fourth type of lubricant, are becoming more common. These lubricants have excellent lubricity properties, and do not contain the waxes that cause low-temperature problems with many mineral lubricants, making them an excellent low-temperature choice. Caution must be taken when using PAG oils because they are not compatible with mineral oils, and some seals and paints.

Metallurgy of the Gears
The most common worm gears are made with a brass wheel and a steel worm. This is because the brass wheel is typically easier to replace than the worm itself. The wheel is made out of brass because it is designed to be sacrificial. In the event that the two surfaces come into contact, the worm is marginally safe from wear because the wheel is softer, and therefore, most of the wear occurs on the wheel. Oil analysis reports on this type of unit almost always show some level of copper and low levels of iron - as a result of the sacrificial wheel.

This brass wheel throws another problem into the lubrication equation for worm gears. If a sulfur-phosphorous EP gear oil is put into the sump of a worm gear with a brass wheel, and the temperature is high enough, the EP additive will activate. In normal steel gears, this activation produces a thin layer of oxidation on the surface that helps to protect the gear tooth from shock loads and other extreme mechanical conditions. On the brass surface however, the activation of the EP additive results in significant corrosion from the sulfur. In a short amount of time, you can lose a significant portion of the load surface of the wheel and cause major damage.

Other Materials
Some of the less common materials found in worm gear sets include:

Steel worm and steel worm wheel - This application does not have the EP complications of brass gearing, but there is no room for error built into a gearbox like this. Repairs on worm gear sets with this combination of metal are typically more costly and more time consuming than with a brass/steel worm gear set. This is because the material transfer associated with failure makes both the worm and the wheel unusable in the rebuild.

Brass worm and brass worm wheel - This application is most likely found in moderate to light load situations because the brass can only hold up to a lower amount of load. Lubricant selection on this metal combination is flexible because of the lighter load, but one must still consider the additive restrictions regarding EP because of the yellow metal.

Plastic on metal, on plastic, and other similar combinations - This is typically found in relatively light load applications, such as robotics and automotive components. The lubricant selection depends on the plastic in use, because many plastic varieties react to the hydrocarbons in regular lubricant, and thus will require silicon-based or other nonreactive lubricants.

In Conclusion
Although a worm gear will always have a few complications compared to a standard gear set, it can easily be an effective and reliable piece of equipment. With a little attention to setup and lubricant selection, worm gears can provide reliable service as well as any other type of gear set.
 


Offline a old timberjack

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2012, 05:28:38 am »
80/90 gear oil for the last 12 years! Nothing hi tec. Reg auto parts store and back in buisiness!
H.T. LOGGING and Trucking, llc, GREENE, Rhode Island

Offline ga jones

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2012, 09:50:43 am »
The one thing that fails on those winches is the brass gear. Ive seen many of them in the skidder junk yard.mobil gear 634. you can get it from any mobil distributor. theres one near me in Wilkes-Barre.The local coal fired powerplants use it. The mills that grind up the coal are worm gears.Also stone quarrys.The crushers also use it.
380c timberjack c4 treefarmer international trucks jonsered saws. Sugi hara bars

Offline lumberjack48

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2012, 01:11:09 pm »
The right oil in this brass worm gear is a must have, heres some more reading.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/169/worm-gear-lubrication

Mobil 600W  meets specs
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Offline Atlantic Trader

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2012, 08:32:52 pm »
I spoke to the owner of our local Shell station today, he is going to contact his distributor and see if he can order the Shell gear oil recommended, he aid he should know by Tuesday how much it will cost.

Oh well i am going to park the skidder until i get this figured out, i just cant take a chance on doing any damge, i guess i will go and do frewood.

The weather here is going to be bad Sunday and Monday at least 6" of snow.

Offline UN Hooker

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2012, 11:35:34 pm »
You can also use Amsoil gear oil, 75/90 or 75/140. All Amsoil gear oil's are brass/bronze friendly. They use no sulfur in their oils, sulfur is what attacks the brass/bronze.
      UN

Offline Neilo

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2012, 11:23:14 pm »
The Shell Omala S4 WE is not compatible with other mineral oils. If you go that way, you will have to flush the old oil with a specialty flush designed for the Omala. Your Shell agent you are talking to should be able to advise.

Offline Atlantic Trader

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2012, 08:03:24 pm »
Thanks Neilo, how do you know his did you read it somewhere? If so i will have to go with soemething else.

Offline Neilo

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2012, 09:48:53 pm »
I recalled it from product specs. This link is to a Omala S4 WE brochure. It states it can be flushed with the Omala oil and then changed again. Guessing you have to buy a pail or 20L, there should be plenty for that.

http://s09.static-shell.com/content/dam/shell/static/ind/downloads/lubes-b2b/omala/omala-s4-we.pdf

Offline Atlantic Trader

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Re: Hercules winch oil?
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2013, 05:02:03 am »
Thanks again Neilo, I read the attachment and will flush with he new Shell product and refill.