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Started by maple flats, August 12, 2012, 08:18:28 AM

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maple flats

After being off grid for a few years at my Sugarhouse, we are getting grit tie. We have 3280 watts off grid and are adding another 3080 more. We decided to  get grid connected to save on battery replacement costs and to mainly take advantage of credits available. I have done my installation thus far but the grid tie requires a "certified installer" to do the work before I can tie into the grid. Thus I have gotten one and he will be finishing the work, adding the additional panels, another inverter and submitting all paperwork necessary. The utility has staked 3 poles of which I had to pay for 1 to come in 240' overhead and hang a transformer. I had to pay for 140' of that wire. Then I'll trench, run secondary to the sugarhouse and eventually to our new home. I'll be holding on building because of MIL issues. She needed to be closer so my wife could help her more so we just bought another duplex, one side for her one for us. We'll stay there until she no longer needs help (she's 86) and then we'll build our home and likely rent the duplex out.
Our power will be heavy on solar until we build and we'll have no electric bill but will rather get a check once a year from the power co. After we build we should end up about zero at each anniversary date and get either get a small bill or a smaller check. Net metering runs the meter forward and backward depending on which direction to power is going. Thus it is at retail UNTIL the power co buys after a year. If they write a check they only pay at their cost for the excess, which is only a small fraction of what they sell it for. This means it is not wise to have more solar than you need because you won't make money on it. (but just getting the check is going to be a good feeling). 8) ;D
Dave
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

doctorb

Dave-

I agree with your last statement, and many installers price out jobs at 50% or 75% of the current usage to avoid the problem of poor payback for an expensive system that creates more power than you use.  This has to be balanced, however, against the fact that you only get the incentives and rebates once with these systems.  If you expand later, there is no re-rebate from fed, state and local governments.  They don't let you keep going back to the well over and over again!  So if you plan to expand your system in the future when you build your home, you may not be in a position to garner rebates at that time.

So, IMO, i suggest that anyone considering solar power should put in the largest system that they can afford that will barely cover their existing electric use.  That way the incentives are maximized and your future bills are minimized.

When the incentives are removed (another topic for another thread), the cost of the systems will have to decrease markedly before anyone will consider installing solar power.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Al_Smith

Quote from: doctorb on August 12, 2012, 09:30:08 AM
   
When the incentives are removed (another topic for another thread), the cost of the systems will have to decrease markedly before anyone will consider installing solar power.
To that from my perspective that statement also applies to wind power but as stated another topic . ;)

Bandmill Bandit

 To that from my perspective that statement also applies to wind power but as stated another topic . ;)
[/quote]


Wind power in the form of the generators large enough to make them viable as electricity source alternative will NEVER be economically or environmentally viable in my life time( I am 56). Germany and much of europe already know this very well as the subsidy to keep the generators operating actually increases as time passes. The 2 companies that build the most reliable and efficient systems sell them with a 15 year turn key warranty and operations contract. The second company is now under the management of the other as it simply did not have the resources to maintain the ever increasing cost of maintenance on existing installations as of 2007 and the first company has a government as a the major minority shareholder (48%)   

Zero environmental impact requires 12 to 14 year of operation at a minimum of 80% output and economic balance has yet to be shown on any of the wind farms in Europe. A few are near zero but none (gov figures I  reviewed in 2007) have yet achieved any profitability and most are no where near environmental ZERO

I fact most of the German wind farms require an additional subsidy of .60 Euro to 1.00 Euro per revolution to keep them running past year 15 and well over 50% CANNOT be run past year 15 as the manufacturing companies condem them as unsafe and will not re certify them for further operation. Cost of replacing a spent one is actually near 3 times the cost of a new one as the dismantle and land reclamation cost is almost double the cost of building a new unit on a piece of virgin ground.

AND this does not even address the wild life and and all the other non carbon emitting impacts these unsightly monstrosities present.

I have done the numbers. The combination of wind and solar in a form suitable to power a house not including heating/refrigeration or cooking capability is economical with about a 10 to 15 year pay back with no subsidies. IF you live in area where the wind is fairly constant that can come down about 20%.

That is building ALL of your own wind turbines and solar collection systems.

Bottom line is this; We are still years away from viable systems both environmentally and economically from alternative energy sources. I think solar holds the most promise. Wind in the magnitude requires and with current technology is a waste thought energy to even consider at this point.
           
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Al_Smith

In terms of economics it was the rule of thumb at one time that an investment payed itself off within a 7 year period to be considered a good investment .

Other issues such as the feeling of good for environmental concerns  while noble indeed are not neccessarily a good investment .

Passive solar with regards to building designs have proven to be beneficial while  most active solar systems it truth have not in terms of economics .

Now I've often stated that figures don't lie but liars figure but with the data I know about they aren't in this case unless they are in the business of selling alternate sources of energy .Then again I suppose a good PT Barnum type sales person could sell beach front property in western Kansas . ;)

Kansas

Actually I have some to sell. The beachfront property is right up against the mountains we keep hidden in western Kansas.

Biggest problem is electrical storage. Batteries are just too expensive. MIT has something in the works. Here is an article on it. Take a good note of Nocera's work. The key is this; cost. also if you don't have to worry about an ice storm or wind damage to power lines, plus the ability for someone to put in a 3 phase electric mill or woodworking equipment, or a farm, or whatever, and not have the high costs of getting the lines run to you.

It may be different in your state. In Kansas, for the things I have looked at at converting wood chips to electricity and putting back on the grid, there are two options. One, like you said, at their cost, about all you want to sell. The other one is Getting near full retail value, but you can't sell the excess electricity back. I take it states have different rules for putting electricity on the grid.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-04-01/news/31266999_1_richard-cogdell-solar-cells-sunlight

If and when they get that worked out, it will be a real blessing to rural people.

Al_Smith

Well yes would be great but I for one do not believe it's yet come of age .

Wind power for example is not new at all.During the late 20's and into the 30's there was the infamous "Delco systems " that used wind power ,batteries and a stationary back up engine .

Then along came the REA act and we got the grid .It 's only in perhaps the mid 70's anybody even thought much about wind solar and the like .----until the oil embargo and Mother Earth News .Then people went nuts dusting off old wood stoves rewiring and refurbishing old Wind Chargers and Jacobs turbines . It kind of came full circle so to speak .

People invested  small fortunes in active solar systems which very few worked well and I doubt they'll forget about it .Now it appears that is also enjoying a resurgance so time will tell if the newer systems work better than the old .For those who go that route I certainly hope so for their sake .

Al_Smith

Quote from: Kansas on August 12, 2012, 06:37:26 PM
  The beachfront property is right up against the mountains we keep hidden in western Kansas.

    .
   
:D Well on that you all have done an excellant job of hidding them .Then again on I-70 going west you can't tell western Kansas from eastern Colorado until you get to Denver .There's water alright but it takes a deep well and a powerfull pump to get it .

Kansas

We have a really large tarp to hide the mountains. Last thing we want to do is get overrun with tourists.

I do think the solar panels of today are a lot more efficient. Hope this all works out for you, Maple Flats.

maple flats

Me too. PV Solar (making electricity) has come a long way since the first panels were made back in the 1940's. However, those panels are still producing power. The efficiency of today's panels is in the 15-19% range, meaning that % of sun energy is converted to electrical energy. The panels I have are over 17% efficient. On the cost end the prices have fallen fairly rapidly recently. As an example, I bought 2- 150 watt panels in 2009 for $420 each. These panels while OK turned out not to be UL listed and thus can not be grid tied. Then in 2010 I bought 4 more panels and started a new system, all UL listed. Those panels are 185 watts each and the price was $409 each. Then in 2011 I bought 4 more of the same and the price dropped to $349 each. This year I tried to buy 8 more but they had been discontinued, in favor of higher wattage panels. I bought 8-220 watt panels at $322 each. My additional panels being added at this time are 14 more at 220 watt, and the price dropped to $310 each. I don't know if this drop is because of qty. or another general drop. As you can see, solar is becoming more affordable. On the other end, most equipment has also dropped in price, very likely caused by growth of the solar industry.
What has not gotten better is some solar incentives. For example, New York's program, NYSERDA used to rebate $2.50/watt when I first looked into it, and it has slowly dropped in steps, so now it is $1.50/watt. To get this rebate the system must be grid tied. As such I have never gotten any rebates, but my expansion will get it, only on the new equipment, not the existing from previous years.
As I see it, solar is a good investment (only if you go grid tied, because recurring battery costs kill any benefits of off grid systems) With a properly sized system, it means I have paid for the electricity I will use the rest of my life and you helped me buy it, thru rebates and tax credits (you paid for almost 70% of the total cost) The rebates are funded by a little hidden charge in your electric bill, and the tax credits are funded by all who pay taxes. Being a tax credit, means I must also be in that group, no tax liability, no tax credit, you can not get money if you have no liability in taxes.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

r.man

Sorry I missed this discussion when it happened but I have some interesting numbers from Ontario. Ten years ago I had the only solar panel that I knew of on a main road in my rural area. There were a few in outlying off grid areas but mine was on my roof in town. My panel ran me around 5 or 6 dollars per watt and it was only used to give me some experience with solar and to charge backup batteries to use in a power outage. I did switch most of the lights in the house so I could run them from the backup system and we would do this to get some regular use out of the system. As of 6 months ago a friend added panels to his off grid cottage for about 1.50 per watt including taxes. The big change however is that now there are solar panels in vacant properties, and on the rooftops of larger buildings in many places in my area on the main roads. Solar farms are becoming more common as well as the most common which is self standing installations of 40 panels or so. The government introduced an incentive program a few years ago that has really caught on. It is called the FIT or feed in tariff which pays 50 or 80 cents per kwh for electricity fed into the grid and you don't have to be using any. People with vacant property near the grid are putting up panel installations as an investment. These were originally 80 cents per kwh with a twenty year contract but the newer ones are 50 per kwh I've heard. I think the rooftop ones are 50 as well. The first ones were an oddity 2 yrs ago or so but now they are popping up like billboards. The nay sayers are worried that we are driving up the cost of electricity but I share the opinion of many that think it has been held below what its market price should be and like any resource gets wasted because it is so cheap. Anyone who has an electric hot water heater in the summer and dries clothes in an electric dryer in nice weather shouldn't complain about the price of electricity. I will try to get pictures of some of the local installations. They range from pressure treated fixed wooden frames to large single post sun tracking aluminum units on heavy concrete bases.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

maple flats

My final system does not look like what was posted at the start of this thread. We ended up with only 1480 watts to a battery backup system, with an FX80 CC and a 6048 Xantrex inverter. This is charging a 240 AH 48V battery bank. That will be enlarged to about 3x when the batteries are ready to be replaced.
Then we got 22 Kyocera panels @ 220 watts (4840 watts) on a grid tied system, with a Fronius 5000 watt inverter. This feeds the main panel at the sugarhouse. It is either used there, used to charge the batteries or sold net metered as dictated by the Xantrex XW6048. The 4840 array has a meter to track it's production. The XW also sells excess power to the grid. Right now that set up needs updating. Since my CC and the inverter and different brands I am in reality shortening the battery bank life to sell, because I only charge to 52v and sell the rest. Later this year I will change the CC to an XW CC and then I can keep the batteries fully charged for longer battery life.
One my meter (showing generated KWH on the 4840 watt system,) I only got 102 KWH for Dec, but last Sunday I got 41 KWH in a 26 hr period. I liked seeing that good reading.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

I have been watching my energy produced by my solar and my net metered balance. As of earlier this week my system of the net metered only (not tincluding the battery back up portion) I had  generated almost 1100 KWH since Nov 26, 2012, and then with my battery backup adding too, but subtracting my usage I have sent over 700 KWH more to the grid than I have used. I use most of my power during maple season, which this year ran from Feb. 17-April 16.  I run the sugarhouse on electric as much as possible, and I also keep a 5th wheel camper energized all the time too, all on the same meter. I did however have to pay for electric usage for December and Jan was only a very slight + in my favor. Then Feb got better and march really started adding up. Now I'm thinking I want to try to get my reconciliation date changed from Nov 26 each year to either June 26 or July 26 (My account was turned on Nov 26, 2012. To do this if they allow it, I'll bet I need to go to either 6/26 or 7/26 of next year and not this year. I've gor some talking to do. My thoughts are that starting on Nov. 26 each year, I'll always have a lrge bill to pay for Dec, Jan, somewhat smaller in March and likely April before I get net metered to go in the right direction after the house is built. I've heard of someone else getting the reconcile date changed but I can't remember who to ask how they did it.
I am real pleased so far with the solar generated. In fact, I like seeing it generate 200-300 watts all night just from a bright moon and sometimes even from a star filled sky. ;D
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

I was told I will not get any check for excess power on my net meter. It turns out that a commercial meter just rolls over all excess power. At first I thought I was getting robbed but then I got to thinking about it. I now see that as a bonus. I will never get my excess energy cancelled out with a super low rate/KWH and then have times when I have to pay a higher bill because I used more than I generated since my last reconciling date. This means that every KWH I generate will be net metered at full retail and if I never get to the point where I net meter to get a bill I have done the best possible. As of today, I have 1130 KWH in my favor on the meter.
This does however change some of my plans. In my sugarhouse I will start using more electric powered equipment, for example, I have a propane on demand hot water heater, I may change to electric. In my RO room I may add an elec. baseboard heater (only 2' needed since the room is super insulated and only measures 6' x 8' with 5" foam insulation all around it) rather than a propane heater, the RO (reverse osmosis) can never freeze. Another thing is the RO itself. It is now powered by a 5.5 HP gas motor, I'll convert to electric. While these things may sound extreme, the annual energy usage will basically be a 6 week use while the panels work all year (I'm still impressed at the times I get 200-300 watts off the moon, and this is all fuller moon clear or light cloud cover nights.)
One thing this will do however is to foster less consevation in the near future, then that will change when I build my new home at the site and the meter changes from commercial to residential and I then get the annual reconciling of the net meter balance.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

I still have some wiring to re do now that the maple season has ended. My battery back up plectric panel has only 1 circuit I need backed up and there are 5 that are non critical. I will be pulling those non critical circuits out and wiring them into grid power only. That way, if the grid goes down I'm not drawing my batteries down with non essential loads. I also will be getting rid of my Outback FX80 charge controller in favor of a Xantrex. The outback CC and Xantrex inverter can not talk to each other. This means I am shortening the life of my battery bank. Since I'll not have more that 1480 watts to the battery bank I do not need an 80 amp CC, so I can get a much smaller XW CC. The inverter will also charge the battery bank anytime the grid is up. With a communication between inverter and CC I can keep the batteries at 100% charge and still sell excess to the grid, as it stands now I sell before getting to 100%. That will change this month or next.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

quick update. I checked the Xantrex line for a smaller charge controller (CC). It seems the MPPT (maximum power point tracking) charge controllers only come in 2 sizes, 60amp and 80 amp. I ordered a 60 amp. There are several smaller CC's out there but they are PWM type (pulse width module, a far less efficient type). I now have a Xantrex 60A MPPT CC on it's way.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

The Xantrex charge controller (CC) is now online and my batteries are getting fully charged again. I will be selling the Outback FX80, a perfectly good CC but it was not matched with my inverter and that caused a battery life expectancy issue. Had I not wanted to sell excess power from the battery backup portion of my system it would have been no issue or if my inverter was also made by Outback they would have played well together.
My net meter now shows 1440 KWH in my favor as of yesterday.
Yesterday I started making the RO change mentioned above. I removed the gas engine and started wiring the 2 HP motor. I need to figure out where 1 wire belongs before I can proceed. I bought the motor suggested by the RO manufacturer and got the rest from him. He pre-wired the control box but one wire never got connected. There is a start/stop switch that ties to a starter, a relay and a cord. I just started tracing and studying the schematic when I quit for the day yesterday. Back at it today. The unconnected wire is only long enough to reach the starter but there are several terminals to connect to and the schematic is hand drawn, posing an issue following it. I've been drawing up my own schematic showing what is connected and the unconnected wire. When I finish that if I don't see the answer I'll at least be better equipped to ask the proper question of the manufacturer. The manufacturer is an Amishman and everything is hand written, but he does have a phone in his shop (but not his home). I can call to ask when I have identified all the wires.
I may also just work it out online, by getting the info from each components manufacturer. The 2 components in question are the relay and the starter, the start/stop portion seems straight forward, it is a 2 push button cover and they in turn press a normally open and a normally closed switch under the cover.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

Another update. As of today, I have 2000 KWH credit on my meter.
I finished converting the RO to electric, thus, much quieter running next maple season, no gas to pour and my wife can run it by simply flipping the switch. I have rewired all but 1 circuit in the sugarhouse. That circuit runs the heat for keeping the RO from freezing. That circuit has grid power and battery backup if the grid goes down. The heat in my super insulated RO room is just 3 light bulbs at 100 watts each. 1 will do the job down to about -5F, 2 will do it down to about -35F. The 3rd is just in case one bulb blows. I'll be building an addition and the next RO room will have electric baseboard heat, likely 2' is all it will need. That room will only be  6'x6'x7'H, and will be super insulated, 6" high density rigid foam (I get this from a friend who does roofing, they are take offs from school buildings 3" each and I'll double layer it. Ventilation must be dealt with, but it will only be vented during daylight hours) I may even put a propane hot water heater in there, more heat!
Now I've only got to finish the seemingly endless "Honey Do list" so I can saw the lumber and begin building the addition.

logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

submarinesailor

Maple,

What's an "RO" room?

Bruce

r.man

RO stands for reverse osmosis, which is used to separate larger molecules from water. It can be used to clean drinking water or to remove water from maple sap while leaving the sugar molecule behind. The machines I am familiar with are about the bulk of a medium sized fridge, fairly noisy and have to be kept above freezing.
Life is too short or my list is too long, not sure which. Dec 2014

Thehardway

Maple,

Why are you using propane for heating hot water?  Why not use a DC electric water heater as a dump load for your excess power, direct from your battery bank or use a Heat Pump water heater?   Do you do all of your sugaring with RO equipment or do you have a traditional evaporator system as well?  If you have an evap. system, you could preheat the sap with a heat exchanger on the hot water tank.
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

maple flats

r.man is correct. My RO, (reverse osmosis) processes 250 gal of sap an hour and removes 75% of the water. Originally it ran on a 6.5 HP Honda, but I now converted it to run on electric since I now have grid power and net metering. I can and often do then run the RO again removing about 60% more water. My sap usually starts at 2-2.3% sugar and after the RO I boil at anywhere from 8% to 14% concentrate to reduce it to 66.5% sugar. That is maple syrup density. An RO could technically reduce the sap that far with enough passes, but without the boiling it would only be sweet and no maple flavor. The flavor and color come from the caramelizing on the bottom of the pans.
I use propane because it is fast, cheap and simple (I have a bulk tank and run my canner, my finisher, a 500,000BTU torch to light the evaporator and the HW  heater, all for about $100/yr). I have a small tankless hot water heater. It only runs when I draw water and heats it at 1.6 gpm from 35 to between 120-135. If I draw the water faster it does not heat as high. A temperature control  sets the max temp by regulating the flame intensity.
I don't want nor need a diversion to use my excess solar generation, I have net metering. That way the grid stores it until I need it. If I ran a diversion heater I'd need a large, well insulated tank and more expensive controls.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

maple flats

Quote from: Thehardway on August 09, 2013, 11:05:04 AM
Maple,

If you have an evap. system, you could preheat the sap with a heat exchanger on the hot water tank.
I'm going to be making a set up with preheater pipes inside the hood, and use steam from the flue pan to heat it. My old 3x8 evaporator had one. I bought new higher efficiency pans and have not yet made the preheater. Even without one, my 3x8 pans will make between 7-9 gal. of syrup an hour, depending on the concentrate % I am running. I made a high pressure air over fire (AOF) combustion system that makes it boil real hard. Before the AOF I had to add a full arm load of wrist sized 21" wood every 7 minutes and at night a ball of flame was at the top of the stack (wasted energy) and made 5 GPH of syrup at 8% concentrate. I now fuel every 9 minutes, boil faster a (7 GPH syrup) and get no flame out the stack. The wood gases all burn under the pans where they do the work.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

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