Small Acreage Timber Value

IndyGunworks · July 29, 2012, 02:03:24 PM

Been browsing this site for a while now and have learned alot. This is my first post (I dont post on message boards very often) so I will start by telling a bit about myself. I am a veteran w/ a couple of tours, a fulltime firefighter for the city of Indianapolis, and an expecting father. I do some gunsmithing on the side of firefighting hence where my screen name comes from. I currently live in a small house on a third of an acre lot and it sucks. I grew up in the country and want to be in the country but land prices w/in a reasonable distance to and from work is VERY expensive. Wooded acreage is even harder to find. That being said there is a lot available on the local market that is 229 feet wide by 1500 feet long making it 10.59 acres. They are asking 8,000 dollars an acre.

Knowing this in order for us to get a loan on the property we will need to come out of our savings ALOT. We discussed having the property logged (if the value is worth it) to recoup some of the down payment and rebuild savings to a safter level.

The end goal is to put a pond on the property for a geothermal unit w/in 5 years, and build on the property within 10.

I went and looked at the propery to get an idea of the age of the woods and was quite pleased even though i dont know alot about timber value. I have taken ALOT of pictures of the timber (roughly 40 percent of the LARGE trees) and am going to post them here to get a ROUGH idea of the value. I have talked to several foresters who will come and give a written appraisal for around 2-300 dollars, but want to know if its worth even that before i commit. I do NOT own the land yet and there are many more factors that need to be discussed before we purchase but the value of the timber is a HUGE consideration.

Access is decent right off a country road and the elevation doesnt really change much more than 10 feet across the property.

Here are the pictures, I will have to split them up on posts though because there are quite a few but i want to get the best estimate the internet can give me.

In these photos i placed a 2x4 that was approx 5 feet tall for width and height reference. I understand you cannot assess simply through photo's but would like the best opinion i can get.

IndyGunworks · July 29, 2012, 02:13:34 PM

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/index.php?cat=30100

31 pictures

Norm · July 29, 2012, 02:16:06 PM

Indy you'll need to load your photos to the forum. Here's a thread to show how it's done. Just ask if you need help.

Welcome to the FF.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,56957.0.html

Autocar · July 29, 2012, 02:20:38 PM

I couldn't find the pictures but at eight grand a acre you would have to have some killer trees ! But it's possible,walnut and white oak veneer may get you in that area but still it will be tuff. You talked about a pond and geo thermal, figure out how much fire wood and logs may be on that peace of land then cut it yourself and handle the sale. But to be honest don't figure to much as far as taking away to much of the asking price by selling logs off it, I myself haven't seen that happen on that small of acreage. As far as getting a estimate for your trees I can get you in touch with a buyer in your area if you want. Have a great day Bill

Gary_C · July 29, 2012, 02:21:20 PM

First of all, the lot size you state is actually only 7.89 acres. That's a big difference at $8000 per acre.

The pictures you mentioned are not there yet so I will just say that is a long narrow lot that will need a lot of road and landing area for a logging job.

IndyGunworks · July 29, 2012, 02:31:05 PM

Pictures are up now. I am not try to turn a profit. 8 grand an acre is a fair price in my area maybe a bit on the high side, but wooded acreage is just unavailable. we wouldnt build for 10 years so the woods will have time to heal and regrow.

I am simply hoping for 5-10 grand. If i know i can get somewhere in that range i will be alot more comforitable moving forward with all the other stuff I have to look into before i purchase. here is a link to the property.

http://www.talktotucker.com/property/property.asp?noheader=&PRM_MLSNumber=2938150&PRM_MlsName=MIBOR

Norm · July 29, 2012, 02:43:51 PM

I don't see many trees of value in the pictures unfortunately. I also noticed in the listing it talks about it being in a flood plain. I would be hesitant to build if it is really in one.

IndyGunworks · July 29, 2012, 02:47:48 PM

Quote from: Norm on July 29, 2012, 02:43:51 PM
I don't see many trees of value in the pictures unfortunately. I also noticed in the listing it talks about it being in a flood plain. I would be hesitant to build if it is really in one.

the flood plane is not a concern, its already been addressed and its a flood zone x which doesnt require flood insurance and i am not concerned about flooding in the location the house would be built.

I am strickly looking at timber value to see what/if any cash i could put back into savings after the purchase.

Mark Wentzell · July 29, 2012, 03:37:23 PM

I don't think many logging companies would be interested in that small of a parcel. I could be wrong.

You may have extra labour/ expense after the land is logged, depending on how big of a mess the logger makes and if they leave uncut treetops and slash around. Is there a stream or brook on the property? If there is you could run into erosion and run off issues.

If it was me I would leave the land wooded, the way wood markets are I don't know if you logging would make much of a dent, I'm no expert though.

IndyGunworks · July 29, 2012, 03:45:41 PM

erosion would be almost a non issue. I could take care of all the cleanup easy. as i would have plenty of time and the treetops would make great firewood.

also, for arguments sake, lets pretend that a logger would be interested. What would they be paying for my logs?

Texas Ranger · July 29, 2012, 03:53:28 PM

That is what the forester does for you. NO one here can tell you the species, grade, logging costs, or value. Big trees are, big trees. Value to be determined.

Good luck, and welcome to the forum.

Mark K · July 29, 2012, 03:55:18 PM

I have to agree with Norm. I went thru your pictures and dont see much of anything of real value. I could be wrong because pictures can be decieving. Are you planning on cutting it yourself? Your better off hiring a forester.

IndyGunworks · July 29, 2012, 04:12:19 PM

Quote from: Mark K on July 29, 2012, 03:55:18 PM
I have to agree with Norm. I went thru your pictures and dont see much of anything of real value. I could be wrong because pictures can be decieving. Are you planning on cutting it yourself? Your better off hiring a forester.

I would not cut myself. Just trying to see if its worth the 200 dollars or so to even have a forester come out.

beenthere · July 29, 2012, 04:55:24 PM

Welcome to the Forum.

Invest in the Forester, would be my recommendation. Well worth the few bucks investment. And you will gain from their insight on the rest of your plans...pond, etc.

May be a FF member close by who would have experience with your trees and help out. But a third party will save you from taking an offer that sounds good, but leaves you short of the potential (even in this depressed timber market nowadays). Maybe thing will pick up after the election.

Mooseherder · July 29, 2012, 05:28:49 PM

Welcome Indy and thank you for your service.
The professional forester will be worth the cost. Ten years is not a long time for the forest.
If you love the property the way it is with the trees standing you may want to consider trying to do without the cutting if you can swing it.
I don't know for sure but suspect that you would receive minimal gain and possible high grading. Try to sell a few more guns to make up the difference and keep your lot for the future.

Good luck, I hope you get your lot.

IndyGunworks · July 29, 2012, 05:35:45 PM

Quote from: Mooseherder on July 29, 2012, 05:28:49 PM
Welcome Indy and thank you for your service.
The professional forester will be worth the cost. Ten years is not a long time for the forest.
If you love the property the way it is with the trees standing you may want to consider trying to do without the cutting if you can swing it.
I don't know for sure but suspect that you would receive minimal gain and possible high grading. Try to sell a few more guns to make up the difference and keep your lot for the future.
Good luck, I hope you get your lot.

I dont sell guns, only repair them, and the ATF paperwork is a nightmere so i will probably only work at the gunshop... 10 an hour above the table for what has taken me YEARS to learn. if only fireman got paid worth a *DanG.

I am not opposed to highgrading either. I am young (27) and my wife is 24. Having the property is more important than having lots of amazing trees. Having a safe padding in savings is more important than having the property. So what it comes down do is if i put 12,000 down on the property, it would be nice to get even 4,000 back to put back into savings for that rainy day fund. I am having a hard time believing that 30 trees (at least) of that size are not worth a loggers time?

FYI i checked and fount at least two tree buyers w/in 100 miles. Right around 85 miles one way.

beenthere · July 29, 2012, 05:40:47 PM

From the 31 pics in your gallery (good job on the pics by the way), the woods appears to have been cut over within the last 15-20 years. For sure a forester to walk through it. If there is $2-4000 value there, he/she will spot it rather quickly. If more, they'll let you know too.
Wish you well with the plan.
Any signs of old stumps remaining ??

IndyGunworks · July 29, 2012, 05:45:40 PM

Quote from: beenthere on July 29, 2012, 05:40:47 PM
From the 31 pics in your gallery (good job on the pics by the way), the woods appears to have been cut over within the last 15-20 years. For sure a forester to walk through it. If there is $2-4000 value there, he/she will spot it rather quickly. If more, they'll let you know too.
Wish you well with the plan.
Any signs of old stumps remaining ??

No signs of old stumps, and currently no access for heavy vehicles because of a ditch. I dont think this property has seen heavy equipment for a LONG time. The family just inherited it and they have no records of it being logged. why do you think it was logged w/in 15-20 years?

Autocar · July 29, 2012, 06:30:53 PM

Just to look at the pictures it looks to me like Ash, Hardmaple and a Hackberry but I may be wrong not seeing them in person. Eather way there not real big,here in west central ohio ash,hardmaple pretty dead in the water. I would think you would be hard pressed to get four thousand , but again with out seeing it it is pretty hard to give the correct opinion. Good luck

gspren · July 29, 2012, 07:36:44 PM

Around here you can get a forester to do a free walk and talk before you pay for anything official. A good independent forester will also know who is interested in parcels that size.

1270d · July 29, 2012, 07:50:45 PM

I was in a similar situation a couple years ago. Similar age and family status. We were looking at a property with some timber on it, hoping to recover some of the cost by logging after the purchace. Hired a forester to come and do a cruise/inventory. We found out there wasn't nearly enough timber value to make it worthwhile. The 300 some dollars for the forester was very well spent, as it kept me from making a big mistake

So I vote to hire the forester, they can check the property over whether you own it or not. With permission from the realtor of course

WDH · July 29, 2012, 08:14:54 PM

On the whole, that timber is young with most of the stems in the sapling stage or just out of the sapling stage. The largest stems are low grade logs passed over in the last harvest. I agree with Beenthere that it was logged 15 years or so ago. Maybe 20 years ago.

At this stage of development, unfortunately all you have is mostly pulpwood and low grade logs, so there is minimal timber value. However, 30 to 40 years from now, that will be a good stand of timber. Don't count on much timber value today. If you buy the land and manage the timber, you can have a nice little forest. It is definitely not ready for another harvest at this stage.

Timbercruiser · July 29, 2012, 09:32:07 PM

Make sure the guy cutting it is a small outfitt with a line skidder and a power saw. Tell him you want the trees limbed in a few spots just for limbing and topping. That way you can burn all the mess when it's done and dont have tops and limbs all over your property. Dont let big machines like feller bunchers and graples in there. looks like nice land great pics. My only other advice is make sure its worth it and dont cut it all in one shot. Its a real nice property and will take a long time to get back to that. Small property logging is great if done by the right guy who cares about his work and does what the land owner wants. Makes a clean low inpact job. Good luck

Ron Scott · July 29, 2012, 09:41:20 PM

Yes, have a professional forester look at it for an evaluation of the resource and economic opportunities that the property might provide.

IndyGunworks · July 29, 2012, 09:46:09 PM

Quote from: Timbercruiser on July 29, 2012, 09:32:07 PM
Make sure the guy cutting it is a small outfitt with a line skidder and a power saw. Tell him you want the trees limbed in a few spots just for limbing and topping. That way you can burn all the mess when it's done and dont have tops and limbs all over your property. Dont let big machines like feller bunchers and graples in there. looks like nice land great pics. My only other advice is make sure its worth it and dont cut it all in one shot. Its a real nice property and will take a long time to get back to that. Small property logging is great if done by the right guy who cares about his work and does what the land owner wants. Makes a clean low inpact job. Good luck

Thanks, not quite so sure its 80 grand nice.

IndyGunworks · July 29, 2012, 09:47:57 PM

Quote from: WDH on July 29, 2012, 08:14:54 PM
On the whole, that timber is young with most of the stems in the sapling stage or just out of the sapling stage. The largest stems are low grade logs passed over in the last harvest. I agree with Beenthere that it was logged 15 years or so ago. Maybe 20 years ago.

At this stage of development, unfortunately all you have is mostly pulpwood and low grade logs, so there is minimal timber value. However, 30 to 40 years from now, that will be a good stand of timber. Don't count on much timber value today. If you buy the land and manage the timber, you can have a nice little forest. It is definitely not ready for another harvest at this stage.

This is the advice i was afraid of. At this point I think i will wait the few months it takes to get an appointment with the FREE local DNR forester. He doesnt do values but will give me a state of the woods report and i am sure i can pick his brain a bit on value.

chevytaHOE5674 · July 29, 2012, 10:41:49 PM

I agree with WDH and Beenthere that it was cut over in the not too distance past. The big trees standing today were the low grade logs back then, and they are still low grade logs today. Not seeing much in the way of value, but without being there and taking a look around its hard to know for sure.

A local forester will be able to give you an idea of quality, quantity, and value.

MHineman · July 30, 2012, 12:34:11 AM

I live close to you. I have a Wood-Mizer sawmill. I do small scale logging. And a friend of mine is a Consulting Forester that lives very close to you.

He may be willing to take a quick walk through your woods and give you a rough idea of the value of your trees.

From your pictures, my guess is there is not the value there you are hoping for. It appears to me the woods used to be a pasture. That's not a bad thing, but means the woods is younger and needs more time. Having a thinning cut to remove low value trees will give the higher value trees the opportunity to grow.

The best thing may be to have some of the trees to be thinned sawn into lumber for your use. Everyone needs sheds to store tractors, camping equipment, etc. Right now the timber market is very weak. White Oak and Ash are about the only logs in demand and that's not strong.

Ianab · July 30, 2012, 03:09:47 AM

Just looking through your pictures (and I'm not a forester), But I see a lot of the bigger trees are like this.

Forked, leaning, heavy branches etc. No way you can get a good saw log out of that.

This one, the lower 6ft will be lost, and that's usually the biggest and best wood.

So those big trees were left behind during the last harvest, as not worth harvesting, time hasn't made them much better.

The trees showing better form are the smaller straight ones. Actually the reject trees from the last harvest have probably helped those, by "training" then to grow taller, looking for light, and encouraging them them shed the lower branches. So in the future they are going to produce some good saw logs.

So trees like this are going to be more use in the future, assuming they are desirable timber species anyway.

What I would plan on doing is some small scale firewood harvesting and Timber Stand Improvement. Take out those big ugly trees for firewood, they are not getting any more valuable, just taking up space where something useful could regrow. Then possibly thinning and removing some smaller trees that have poor form. The ones that are looking to grow into more big ugly useless trees. Take them out and you leave more space for the better crop trees. You may be able to recover a few sawlogs for your own use and get some useful wood from them.

These are the sort of things that your State Forester can give you good advice on. While the wont be able to give actual values, he will be able to point out the more valuable species, and what to look for in a good crop tree, and what makes it a reject. He will also have an idea on the growth rates of your local trees, and so give an indication of how far in the future a viable harvest may be. You, your children, your grandchildren??

Ian

stavebuyer · July 30, 2012, 05:45:29 AM

I agree with MHineman. I think the land was pastured with scattered shade. I'd wouldn't expect to recoup much of your downpayment from a timber sale.

asca65290 · July 30, 2012, 02:06:15 PM

My company owns a lot of land similar to this in Illinois and it looks very typical of bottomland forest. I'd be really surprised if there is over $1,000 in value from this timber. The few nice and straight trees you do have are sycamore (white smooth bark) and hackberry (very rough ridged bark). I saw a few hard maples and small black walnuts, and those could be valuable someday, but way too small now. You can get nice forested land in my area for $3,500/acre, but that isn't in a metropolitan area.

What you can do is have a private (or state) forester walk the property for free and tell him/her you are considering getting a timber management plan written on the property. The NRCS or Farm Service Agency in your area may provide cost share assistance to have a forest management plan written, as they often do. During that walk, you can ask some questions of your forester to get a ballpark idea of what the timber is worth and that will let you know if it is worth your time to further investigate or not. In my opinion an appraisal would be a complete waste of money. There is nothing there of any value in your photos. Just get a forest management plan if you purchase it. Don't count on getting any income from it from timber. If you are not in a highly residential area, you could make more leasing the hunting rights on the property than from the timber.

asca65290 · July 30, 2012, 02:08:57 PM

Quote from: Ianab on July 30, 2012, 03:09:47 AM

So trees like this are going to be more use in the future, assuming they are desirable timber species anyway.

This tree is a hackberry. No commercial value to speak of. A hard wood commonly used for tool handles.

Ianab · July 30, 2012, 02:15:08 PM

QuoteThis tree is a hackberry. No commercial value to speak of. A hard wood commonly used for tool handles.

Hence getting the advice of a LOCAL forester that knows your local species of trees.

It may be a "good" hackberry tree, doesn't make it a valuable one.

Ian

WDH · July 30, 2012, 08:38:57 PM

Hackberry down here is only used as low value palletwood.

tyb525 · July 31, 2012, 12:30:04 AM

Think I saw some hickory in there, not sure though.

You don't have Walnut, red or white oak, or nice cherry. You have ash, hackberry, low grade cherry, hard maple. Typical of the bottomland you see around here (Indiana).

This looks like an old pasture, because most of the big trees look like pasture trees. The pasture was left alone so some trees started to grow, but those young trees aren't much more than saplings.

I would not buy the land with hopes that the timber will be of any value for a good while. Plus that is an odd size lot, very narrow and long. How would that affect the placement and logistics of things?

I bet you could have a good supply of firewood though, even from just cutting those ugly old trees.

Phorester · August 01, 2012, 12:33:26 PM

I agree with the others - there is virtually no timber value in the trees in your pictures. But, if you are still interested in the property for other reasons, I'd spend the few hundred dollars to get it cruised and some management advice.

About contacting your DNR forester; I am a State forester in Virginia, and we can only look at timberland for the landowner. We cannot look at land for a potential buyer. Your DNR might have the same policy.